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Nutrition Nutrition for Fat-Skinny People Who Want Visible Abs

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I definitely fell for paleo at one time, keto at another, etc etc.

Paleo and Keto

Both are effective diets. Due to how long they have been around, framing them as "Fads" is incorrect; you implied it.

Never helped.

Why It Didn't Work/Help

Paleo and Keto both work. So, the question someone should ask is, "If it works for other, why not me?"

The answer usually is that it isn't the diet but the individual. Something was implemented incorrectly.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Knowing how many calories you need to maintain your weight would be a good thing. Do you know that number?

Know Your Numbers

Anyone who's serious need to know how many calories they are consuming. To do that you need a...

Three Day Recall

Count all the calories you consume in three days, then divide by three to see what you average daily caloric intake is.

One of those days need to be a weekend; your eating habits change on your days off.

..if you don't lose fat over a period longer than 2 weeks, cut calories by 200. Aim for a rather conservative weight loss, ~1% of bw per week.

20% Calorie Deficit

Research by Dr Layne Norton and Dr John Ivy, independent of each other, determined decreasing caloric intake around 20% is the most effective at preserving muscle mass and maximizing fat loss.

As Marc stated, a conservative weight loss is one of the keys.

Get in some ~30-60g of fibre per day ...

Fibre

I am a proponent of getting some fibre. However, the emphasis on high fibre is over rated.

Dr Paul Mason's presented some interesting research that counted the dogma on high fibre intake.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Math Correction

Gaining 10 lbs of all muscle would mean your body weight would be 160 lbs.

Yes, that would mean your lean muscle mass would be 137.

However, your body fat percentage would be 14% rather than 19%.
Mr. Croxdale, I think you misread. He gained a total of 20lbs of body weight. In my little calculation I assumed that a maximum of 50% of that (or 10lbs) are muscle mass.
 
Paleo and Keto

Both are effective diets. Due to how long they have been around, framing them as "Fads" is incorrect; you implied it.



Why It Didn't Work/Help

Paleo and Keto both work. So, the question someone should ask is, "If it works for other, why not me?"

The answer usually is that it isn't the diet but the individual. Something was implemented incorrectly.

Kenny Croxdale

Both are effective diets for SOME people. I met with a registered dietician and we went through a typical restrictive diet, then reintroduced foods to see what things did not work for me. Same thing re: fiber, some people, like myself can't tolerate high levels of fiber anyway, insufficient gut flora, etc.

I mean...there is more to the reality of my life, or to my understanding of certain things, than I put in a post. Also...decades really isn't that long to be considered not a "fad" IMO. And I'm aware of Vince G's steak and eggs and all that, and how many ppl have been carb free throughout the years. Still, fad's IMO, in the broader scope of history.

I really like Nancy Clark's Sport's Nutrition Guidebook. It's been the most helpful.
 
I don't really see a benefit from keto if it isn't medically adviced (which it is for a very small percentace of the population).
I'd def consider paleo a fad because:
-which biogeographical region do you use as reference
-nearly all of the foods promoted by this so called paleo diet are a result of selective breeding. It is basically impossible to access most foods in their paleolithic form (why would you want anyway?).
 
I met with a registered dietician and we went through a typical restrictive diet, then reintroduced foods to see what things did not work for me. Same thing re: fiber, some people, like myself can't tolerate high levels of fiber anyway, insufficient gut flora, etc.

Practical Method

That an effective, practical method in making a determination of pretty much everything.

...decades really isn't that long to be considered not a "fad" IMO.

Fad
Fad - Wikipedia

"Fads might last for just weeks or months..."

The Ketogenic Diet has been around for over 100 years.

The Paleo Diet since the 1970s, so let say over 40 years.

Based on the definition, neither Keto or Paleo are fads; except under your definition.

I really like Nancy Clark's Sport's Nutrition Guidebook.

Clark's Book

Clark's is a smart lady. As you know it is geared toward high carbohydrate intake, which may be more effective for you and individual in Glycolytic Energy System Sports or Activities, as I addressed.

Kenny Croxdale
 
I don't really see a benefit from keto if it isn't medically adviced (which it is for a very small percentace of the population).

Medically Advised

The majority of physician rarely if every recommend a Ketogenic Diet for anything. Their knowledge base on Keto is virtually non-existent; they are decades behind in the use and application of the Ketogenic Diet, as an epigenetic treatment method.

Most nutrition physician received was around 6 hour of college classes, decades ago, which they cling to.

Most physician are overload, they rarely have time to educating themselves with nutrition, physical therapy, exercise physiology, pharmacology, etc.

Many Registered Dietitian and Nutritionist in the field lack knowledge with the Ketogenic Diet, it falls more into a specialty area of nutrition.

Benefit of the Ketogenic Diet

There are a multitude of health benefits to the Ketogenic Diet that extend to normally healthy individual; a length topic.

Adherence

In all my post on Keto, my constant position is that even though I like the diet, I do not recommend it.

It's hard for the majority of individual to maintain any diet...

https://nypost.com/2018/12/21/new-years-resolutions-last-exactly-this-long/

Before the first month of the year has even come to an end, most people have given up on their annual commitment to themselves.

The Greater Demand, The Greater The Failure Rate

The Ketogenic Diet is very demanding. The more demanding a diet, anything is, the greater the rate of failure.

The 80%/20% Rule is true for diets, exercise, pretty much everything in life; 80% will drop out with about 20% making an effort to maintain it.

I'd def consider paleo a fad because...

Dr Craig Marker

To paraphrase what Dr Craig Marker states in his HIIT article...

"Your feelings don’t matter! That is, your subjective feeling"... regarding Paleo as a fad diet.

That is your definition, rather than how fad is truly defined.

Why You Don't Like Paleo or Consider It A Good Diet

Your "List of Because's" fall more into this area, which is fine.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Practical Method

That an effective, practical method in making a determination of pretty much everything.



Fad
Fad - Wikipedia

"Fads might last for just weeks or months..."

The Ketogenic Diet has been around for over 100 years.

The Paleo Diet since the 1970s, so let say over 40 years.

Based on the definition, neither Keto or Paleo are fads; except under your definition.
[/QUOTE]

That is not a definition.

Consider: "Trees might last for just weeks or months..." That statement does not define a tree's component parts, its instrumental value, or its relationship to other plants, for example. It merely states how long a tree MIGHT last. Note—it does not say how long trees last, typically last, or any other such thing.

What you quoted is 1) from wikipedia, and 2) a possible temporal boundary on a thing called "fad" in a paragraph mostly distinguishing between "fad" and "trend." That temporal boundary, by the way, is purely arbitrary, it is merely a helpful way of saying "look, if you want to make a distinction between trend and fad, then let's use a temporal boundary as a difference marker." That's all. This is a weak way of defining something, because it still does not define the actual thing being discussed, but merely compares it to some other thing in order to create an additional category. For example, if someone asks you "what is a baseball?" And you said "You hit it with a bat" would define nothing about the baseball, except its relationship to a bat.

And anyway the point is not the diet, it's the marketing. That's what people fall for. That's what I meant. The marketing of Keto, or Paleo, is not nearly as old as the diet itself. Hence, the marketing is a "fad." The diet is itself maybe a trend, if we are talking about developed countries that have had the privilege of picking and choosing which foods to eat at relative ease. For example, you surely would not say Keto has been around Haiti for 100 years. Nor Paleo. What constitutes a "fad" is inextricably linked to religious beliefs, social status, economical status, geographic boundaries, etc.

I teach at a University and it's not fun to have to pick and choose words carefully all the time. Thank you for teaching me how to engage with you in the future.

P.S. it's a myth that dieticians and nutritionists lack information about keto. By myth I mean, there is not a study that has been peer-reviewed showing that all those silly nutritionists and doctors simply don't know the true science of keto, paleo, or what-have-you-o. It's something fitness people love to say because it makes them feel like they have the same knowledge as a trained specialist. In fact, carb elimination diets have been used as early as the 20s for patients with epilepsy, but was stopped when they gained new anticonvulsant therapies.
 

When something has been around for over 40 years and 100 years, it definitely is not a fad.

And anyway the point is not the diet, it's the marketing. That's what people fall for.

Marketing

Yes, it's the marketing, not the diet.

I worked in Radio and TV Advertising for 15 year. My degree is in Radio-TV; which included marketing/advertising.

Advertising

Advertising is a form of "Brainwashing"; "If you scream it long enough and loud enough, people will believe it".

That doesn't mean the "Brainwashing" all bad.

We learn out ABC and multiplication table via "Brainwashing" and everything else, via repetition.

it's a myth that dieticians and nutritionists lack information about keto.

Lack of Knowledge

Nutritionist are familiar with the Ketogenic Diet. They are have some knowledge about it. However, few are well versed in the nuances of it.

Since I am well versed in the Ketogenic Diet and not Paleo, so I'll focus on Keto.

Specialist

Nutritionists are like Physicians, Exercise Physiologist, Lawyers, etc.

The majority fall into the area of "General Practitioner"; "Jack of all trade, master of none". They know a little about everything. However, they lack the enough knowledge in specific areas.

The Ketogenic Diet is a "Specialty Diet", requiring a Ketogenic Nutrition Specialist.

Even within the Ketogenic Specialty Diet there's a subdivision of specialist.

Continuum of Care | The University of New Mexico

The New Mexico Continuum of Care Department specializes in prescribing the Ketogenic Diet and working with individual with epilepsy.

I've hosted the non-profit, sanctioned Albuquerque Strength Clinic since 2012, coming up on 8 years. It is primarily geared toward Personal Trainers and Strength Coaches who need to obtain Continuing Education Units.

I contacted the the Registered Dietitian at New Mexico Continuum of Care Department about speaking on the Ketogenic Diet.

In speaking with the Registered Dietitian, she informed me that her expertise was the application of Keto for epileptics, rather than other uses for the diet. I wanted something more general.

General Nutrition Practitioners

In 2016, a Registered Dietitian spoke at my clinic. In a brief conversation with her, she stated she'd tried the Ketogenic Diet and could not do it. Her failure in part was her lack of knowledge.

I've attended two additional Strength Clinics that she's spoken at. For some reason she always finds a way to bash the Ketogenic Diet. It comes across as her blaming the Ketogenic Diet for her failure.

My nephew has a Master in Nutrition. He bashed the Ketogenic Diet for years. Some of the research information that I've sent him over the years has led him to see that the Ketogenic Diet provides some health benefits.

Rather than ramble on with other examples, I'll stop there.

It's something fitness people love to say because it makes them feel like they have the same knowledge as a trained specialist.

The Issues

1) The majority of Registered Dietitians and Nutritionist are not "Specialist" when it come to the Ketogenic Diet. They are in the "General Practitioner" category; "Jack of all trades..."

2) Let me emphatically state that I have more knowledge that the majority of Nutritionist and definitively more that physicians.

One of my other degrees is in Exercise Science, I am certified with the National Strength and Conditioning Association as a Strength Coach (Strength Coaches with Universities and Professional usually have this certifications), etc. More my background is listed on "Information" on this site.

What's Irritating

What irritates me is when speaking with a Nutritionist, Physician, Physical Therapist etc. and finding out that I know more than they do.

Their irritation of my probing appears to be drive by the fact that they don't know and are embarrassed to admit is.

Rather than them simply stating it isn't their area (which is fine) they derail the topic. In trying to discuss the cholesterol issue on my last visit with my doctor, he quickly shut it down with...

"I am not going to argue with you about this". Ended of conversation. It reminded me of when I'd ask my mother why I had to do something. Her reply, "Because I said so!"

I never did that with my son. I view it as a learning experience. If I didn't know, I have him look it up and report back to me. What he enjoyed was in demonstrating that he knew more than I did on it, which he did.

As you know from teaching at a university, the best way to learn something is to teach it.

The doctor viewed "The discussion" as a challenge to knowledge; which was true.

In probing a Physical Therapist with a PhD on something, her parting shot was, "You know I am a Dr of Physical Therapy"? That told me she didn't know and felt challenged.

Summary

1) My knowledge base supersede the majority of Nutritionist and Physicians.

2) Snowman/Matt, who post on this site, is one of the other definitive knowledgeable individual on Keto. He's a pre-med student who has employed the diet and researched it.

Matt has a more extensive science background that I do. So, when I have a question, I often "Start A Conversation" with Matt on this board and get his feed back.

Final Thought

"Stay in your lane": I make an effort not to venture into an area that I am unfamiliar with and lack knowledge in.

Venturing into an area that you aren't well versed with amount to trying to walk through a "Minefield".

Unfortunately, that isn't the case, especially with Physicians and some Nutritionist.

I don't have enough fingers and toes to count all the "Experts" that I've run across.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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@kennycro@@aol.com
Well, maybe the paleo diet is not a fad per definition.
But I'd consider it a gimmick for the reasons mentioned.
That's not to say that it is a bad diet to follow, in fact it ptomotes healthy food choices. But still, it makes some restrictions for which I see no reason. Why would you omit delicious white bread as long as it fits into your kcal and the whole picture of your diet (i.e. enough veggies, fibre, protein, micronutrients)?
Another aspect that I don't like is the fact that it promotes paleolithic populations as the be-all-end-all examples of good health. But we cannot say that with certainty. They simply ate what they could get and was aviable in their region (which varies greatly between populations). Also, humans are very adaptive to new sources of nutrition. Examples: Paleolithic folks were unable to digest milk as adults but then a mutation occured that makes people lactose persistent for their entire life. The first time ~7000 years ago in central/northern Europe and then again (independently) ~5000 years ago in the Masai people of eastern Africa. Both people held kettle and being able to acess a new source of calories was a trait that got fixed by evolution. This occured very recently. Another example is the amylase gene (an enzyme that digest starches). People with a diet high in starch have more copies of that gene vs people with a diet low in starches. All that suggest a rather fast adaptation to new food sourced but proponents of the paleo diet ignore this.
And again, very few people have acess to the foods to replicate an "honest" paleo diet that also refects their personal biogeographical background.
 
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@kennycro@@aol.com
Well, I might know a bit about the historical background but I'd claim with certainty that you are more knowledgeable when it comes to nutrition.
I just don't like the dogmatic, ignorant way some diets are propagandised.
 
I have had great success with the ketogenic diet. I lost 4 kilos in ca 6 weeks, retained muscle and increased in strength. Some of that weight was likely water. Also, I felt VERY good.

I did an Inbody scan, with all it shortcomings, and it had me at 3% bodyfat, with a bodyweight of 79kg. I dont believe the 3% to be correct, but it was probably around 6-9%. At least that was what my buddy told me, who is far more competent than me.

My typical eating day would something like this:

Breakfast:
8ish eggs
cabbage with a lot of olive oil
perhaps some macadamia nuts or avocado

Dinner:
400g salmon, butter
cabbage with olive oil, or avocado
creme fraiche

Snacks: Whatevere needed to reach my macros. Fat coffee/tea, macadamia nuts etc.. Was eating around 3100kcal, 20-30g carbohydratres and around 160g protein and the rest of fat.

Also, I typicall had a 14-18hours of fasting (black coffee, tea and water was allowed)..

I was not dogmatic about my approach, and sometimes work made it difficult to comply to this eating pattern. But, the more compliant I was, the better I felt and the better the results.

I would personally recommend this. But I am no expert in anything.

Regards,
Kris
 
I have had great success with the ketogenic diet. I lost 4 kilos in ca 6 weeks, retained muscle and increased in strength. Some of that weight was likely water. Also, I felt VERY good.

I did an Inbody scan, with all it shortcomings, and it had me at 3% bodyfat, with a bodyweight of 79kg. I dont believe the 3% to be correct, but it was probably around 6-9%. At least that was what my buddy told me, who is far more competent than me.

My typical eating day would something like this:

Breakfast:
8ish eggs
cabbage with a lot of olive oil
perhaps some macadamia nuts or avocado

Dinner:
400g salmon, butter
cabbage with olive oil, or avocado
creme fraiche

Snacks: Whatevere needed to reach my macros. Fat coffee/tea, macadamia nuts etc.. Was eating around 3100kcal, 20-30g carbohydratres and around 160g protein and the rest of fat.

Also, I typicall had a 14-18hours of fasting (black coffee, tea and water was allowed)..

I was not dogmatic about my approach, and sometimes work made it difficult to comply to this eating pattern. But, the more compliant I was, the better I felt and the better the results.

I would personally recommend this. But I am no expert in anything.

Regards,
Kris

I've wondered if I should try something like this in order to lower the body fat, if only for a while. It's annoying, because I carry almost all my fat on my belly. I've been doing barbell training as my main modality for about 9 months and I'm planning on running ROP for a couple months(ish). Hopefully, coupling the two could help me cut up a bit.
 
@Benjamin_K personally I wouldn't consider you fat at all (nor skinny and def not skinny-fat). I think regardless of the diet you chose you will see decent progress relatively quick. Keto has a good record but it is rather special and restrictive. You should choose something that you can adhere to rather than looking for quick fixes or "enduring the suck".
 
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