Other/Mixed Order of Exercises?

[tomstranger]

I know that power comes before grinds in the most recent Strongfirst thinking. What other recommendations are there with regard to types of exercises done on the same day or in the same session? For example, would jogging or the kettlebell mile be best before or after grinds?

 

[Erik Hournou]

It depends on what's more important to you, I would probably leave endurance till after strength work.

 

[Starlord]

I know that power comes before grinds in the most recent Strongfirst thinking. What other recommendations are there with regard to types of exercises done on the same day or in the same session? For example, would jogging or the kettlebell mile be best before or after grinds?

Ideally you would never combine exercises that elicit different adaptations in the same session.

 

[tomstranger]

Ideally you would never combine exercises that elicit different adaptations in the same session.

That doesn’t make sense. Strongfirst programs routinely include, for example, grinds and ballistics in the same session.

 

[tomstranger]

It seems to me that I read in a newsletter or article that Pavel T mentioned doing “cardio” e.g. jogging before strength and saying that was the preferred order for each modality to not hurt the other. I can’t remember the source though.
That’s not my only question, but rather an example. I’m trying to come up with a somewhat systematic approach to adding maintenance or supplemental work along with whatever my *main* program is, be that Q&D, a powerlifting focused cycle, etc.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I think I got these from Siff and/or Supertraining once upon a time. I still have access to my random notes (through blog and log entries, etc) but am now older and not patient enough to sift through source material to know exactly where I got it. It holds up though as good general guidelines for order within a microcycle/single session, and perhaps even more broadly and loosely across a macrocycle/season.

Warm-Up/Skill Introduction & Development)
Perfection of Technical & Tactical Skills
Speed & Agility Training
Strength Training
Endurance Training
Cool-Down/Recovery

*speed ---> strength ---> endurance
*technical work ---> heavy work
*heavier exercises ---> lighter exercises
*compound ---> isolation
*exercises that stress lower back/core ---> limb dominant exercises

 

[tomstranger]

It depends on what's more important to you, I would probably leave endurance till after strength work.

I agree to an extent. During a DL focused workout where strength development is the primary goal, wouldn’t current Strongfirst philosophy still be that swings, if included, be performed before DL? I think there is a default reaction of saying “prioritize working on whatever goal is most important to you by putting it first in the workout” but it seems like sometimes that response, while intuitive, is not the best way to achieve certain goals. Hence my posting this thread.

 

[tomstranger]

I think I got these from Siff and/or Supertraining once upon a time. I still have access to my random notes (through blog and log entries, etc) but am now older and not patient enough to sift through source material to know exactly where I got it. It holds up though as good general guidelines for order within a microcycle/single session, and perhaps even more broadly and loosely across a macrocycle/season.

Warm-Up/Skill Introduction & Development)
Perfection of Technical & Tactical Skills
Speed & Agility Training
Strength Training
Endurance Training
Cool-Down/Recovery

*speed ---> strength ---> endurance
*technical work ---> heavy work
*heavier exercises ---> lighter exercises
*compound ---> isolation
*exercises that stress lower back/core ---> limb dominant exercises

This is exactly the type of thing I am looking for, and matches my experience. I am wanting to make sure I am on the right track.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I agree to an extent. During a DL focused workout where strength development is the primary goal, wouldn’t current Strongfirst philosophy still be that swings, if included, be performed before DL? I think there is a default reaction of saying “prioritize working on whatever goal is most important to you by putting it first in the workout” but it seems like sometimes that response, while intuitive, is not the best way to achieve certain goals. Hence my posting this thread.

You might do swings before DLs as a warm-up even if your primary concern is the DL - the question then is not just order, but volume/intensity or exertion. Generally, I think it makes sense that whatever attends to your goal (long-term or single session) should be early enough in the game that you aren't too fatigued to give it the focus and effort needed.

 

[Starlord]

That doesn’t make sense. Strongfirst programs routinely include, for example, grinds and ballistics in the same session.

They both work on building fast twitch muscle fibres.

Where as a jog would be used to create adaptations in your aerobic capacity.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Grinds before ballistics in my opinion.

 

[Bauer]

Maybe this is the quote you are looking for:

Here is the rule of thumb of aerobic training before or after strength training. if you are focusing on neural adaptations, do strength work first (or the day before) when you are fresh. If you are focusing on hypertrophy, you can lift after LSD (same or next day) and it is best to avoid LSD (except very easy work) for 48 hours.

S&S is a program that combines various adaptations: strength, power, hypertrophy, endurance. As such, it can go either way.

Source: Simple & Sinister Progression Tactic | StrongFirst

Ballistics can either be more "power" or more "conditioning" focused, whatever that means. I think in older protocols they were usually programmed as "conditioning" and followed the strength work. These days they are usually programmed as a power exercise (heavier bells, more rest, less reps per set) and thus come first.

IIRC, there is also some evidence that conditioning after strength diminish strength adaptations.

However, there are many shades to this. For example, very easy aerobic work is actually beneficial after glycolytic work, because it helps the body to get rid of waste material and thus improves recovery and adaptation.

Edit: For what it's worth, there is a whole section in Easy Strength dedicated to the question of exercise and session order (at 76% in my kindle edition). @tomstranger

 

[LarryB]

I used to run and lift back to back when i was starting out, it lead to injuries. I’ve been extremely happy with the results of putting them on separate days. This isn’t exactly what you are looking for, but it’s my anecdotal experience.

 

[John K]

@tomstranger - @Boris Bachmann nailed it.

 

[Tom Flint]

As I see it, the point of S&S is to plug it in whenever and wherever it’s convenient for you.

It’s a very personal thing but of the two options you’ve presented, I’d choose the latter. But I don’t like strength training in the evening whereas someone else may prefer that.

As they say, the best workout is the one you’ll do consistently - and enjoying the particular program/timing/location is the key to that.

 

[silveraw]

Other people have talked about doing strength before endurance work.
But there is an idea from Beyond Bodybuilding that I use to help with lagging lifts called "Fatigue Cycling" where you just change the order of your strength exercises so the one that is lagging comes first when you are fresh. So if you normally do Squat, pullups, press and your pullups are lagging switch to pullups, press, squat.

 

[Tom Flint]

Warm-Up/Skill Introduction & Development)
Perfection of Technical & Tactical Skills
Speed & Agility Training
Strength Training
Endurance Training
Cool-Down/Recovery

*speed ---> strength ---> endurance
*technical work ---> heavy work
*heavier exercises ---> lighter exercises
*compound ---> isolation
*exercises that stress lower back/core ---> limb dominant exercises

This should be pinned somewhere.

 

[tomstranger]

I generally walk to and from work and then move a lot at work. Frequently I walk 10-15k steps at my job in addition to whatever tasks I’m doing such as landscaping, basic carpentry, and so on. I never count that as “training.” So my question here is only regarding order of exercises in a day or within a workout. A reasonable followup question would be exercises within a week, multi week block, and so on, but that wasn’t my focus here.
That said, all of that non exercise activity can and should be considered when it comes to recovery, goals that include gaining or losing weight, etc.

 

[tomstranger]

They both work on building fast twitch muscle fibres.

Where as a jog would be used to create adaptations in your aerobic capacity.

Yes I remember reading an explanation that basically tied energy systems to fast and slow twitch recruitment. I think I’m closer to tracking with you now, thanks. Frankly I try to understand the science in the stuff I read by Pavel T and Al Ciampa, but my eyes kind of glaze over. I respond better to simple directives to “do this to achieve this.” Strong back and weak mind and all that stuff.

 

[Starlord]

Yes I remember reading an explanation that basically tied energy systems to fast and slow twitch recruitment. I think I’m closer to tracking with you now, thanks. Frankly I try to understand the science in the stuff I read by Pavel T and Al Ciampa, but my eyes kind of glaze over. I respond better to simple directives to “do this to achieve this.” Strong back and weak mind and all that stuff.

I think the context is important too. If you are forced to do all your work in a single session then doing your endurance work at the end is the standard recommendation.

But it is better to split these sessions up to circumvent thr interference effect.