Barbell Overthinking and training

[Warzone2022]

Hello I hope you are all good, sorry for the long message.

I train in an abbreviated hardgainer fashion and I've been having to change my routine to suit the needs of low ceilings (200cm ceiling) which restrict shoulder presses and pullups which I don't like anyway

So the routine that I'm going to do is

Bench press
Row
Squat
Deadlift

Split up into push pull sessions on a ABA/BAB format.

However, I have four questions

1. If I'm using 4 exercises that pretty much hit everything, what would the best sets/reps approach be to get the best bang for my buck?

2. With regards to accessories, would these accessories be a good choice to supplement the lifts and if so what would they benefit and where would I put them on the push or pull days?

Facepull
Leg curl
Landmine press

3. These exercises will suffice for strength/muscle gains right?

4. Could the 4 lifts on it own be good enough for my goal of muscle/strength
---
I also tend to overthink due to my neurodiverse disability, I was on the 4 exercises only since May which is longest on a routine and made tremendous strength gains, however, life got in the way and I had equipment that I made/got and I was considering putting it in the routine then I thought if I'd do that I'd f*** everything up, referring to the 3 accessories.

My head is done lol

Hope you can help me

 

[Daniel Vintila]

1. As stated in no4 you want to build muscle and strength? Anyway It is about the percentages of 1rm when using the big 3 lifts. For building muscle you need to use reps that are around 55% to 70% and what is on top of that mainly works towards strength. For hypertrophy use 6 to 10-12 reps for strength up to 5-6 reps at the most. Around 10 to 30 reps per day for strength will do it. 20 to 40-50 for hypertrophy. Train 2 to 3 days per week and keep a 20% difference between the training days.
2. Accessories should help with the primary exercises. Landmine press helps with bench, leg curl is ok for deadlifts and squats. Facepull works your back so that would help with most exercises you do.
3. Yes depending on how you program reps and sets. Not enough stress you undertrain too much stress you overtrain. If you are fairly new to intermediate you will make gainz.
4. Yes same as no3.
I hope it helps. It is a long story short written here, and I am also enjoying my wine so if you have any questions feel free to ask

 

[Warzone2022]

1. As stated in no4 you want to build muscle and strength? Anyway It is about the percentages of 1rm when using the big 3 lifts. For building muscle you need to use reps that are around 55% to 70% and what is on top of that mainly works towards strength. For hypertrophy use 6 to 10-12 reps for strength up to 5-6 reps at the most. Around 10 to 30 reps per day for strength will do it. 20 to 40-50 for hypertrophy. Train 2 to 3 days per week and keep a 20% difference between the training days.
2. Accessories should help with the primary exercises. Landmine press helps with bench, leg curl is ok for deadlifts and squats. Facepull works your back so that would help with most exercises you do.
3. Yes depending on how you program reps and sets. Not enough stress you undertrain too much stress you overtrain. If you are fairly new to intermediate you will make gainz.
4. Yes same as no3.
I hope it helps. It is a long story short written here, and I am also enjoying my wine so if you have any questions feel free to ask

Thankyou very much for your response.

When you say to make sure you keep a 20% difference between the training days, what do you mean?

Also, if I was to do only the 4 lifts and no accessories, would ramp up sets be a good option to a top set of 5 reps like this or would you add something to the sets/reps?

Push
Squat - 4 ramp up sets/1x5 top set
Bench- 4 ramp up sets/1x5 top set

Pull
Deadlift- 4 ramp up sets/1x5 top set
Row - 4 ramp up sets/1x5 top set

I'm personally not a fan of accessory work and would be happy to not have them (except possibly leg curl (for my knees) and facepull (for posture, shoulder, scapular, traps and upper back health) - but would I put leg curl with deadlifts and facepull with bench?

But all in all if I can get away with doing just those 4 lifts for size and strength I'd be happy

What wine you drinking?

 

[North Coast Miller]

I use a very similar strategy but incorporate also 4 accessory lifts that shadow the main lifts:

Squat - quad accessory such as hack squat, leg extension, sissy squat

Deadlift - hamstring accessory such as leg curl

Bench - anterior shoulder pushing accessory such as landmine press

Row - posterior shoulder accessory such as high pull or upright row.

This allows me to stagger primary and accessory to limit training burnout. Plugged into a 2 day routine one upper and one lower will be primary paired with an accessory:

Squat + shoulder pull
Hamstring curl + bench

Deadlift + shoulder push
Hacksquat + Row

Mentally and physically, approaching a session with nothing but heavy compound lifts I cannot maintain training inertia. This type of breakdown also provides somewhat overlapping stimulus to the same muscle groups but using different movement patterns, which really triggers good size and strength gains if eating for it, and respectable strength increases if not.

Set/load/rep has too many variations to list, a DeLorme inspired approach has always worked well for me with the biggest effort on the last set. This being with straight sets, Clusters, whatever. The more I use Clusters the more I like them.

Have also gotten very good results breaking the above in half and doing a four day rotation, mentally it is very easy to hard train two exercises (plus some a few sets of abs and bicep/tricep alternating.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

When you say to make sure you keep a 20% difference between the training days, what do you mean?

It means that if on day 1 one you do 20 reps, on day 2 of the same week do 24 or 16. This is something I use for as well for weekly volume. Have a 20% difference between each week. But it's only 1 type of work based on Plan Strong. There are other ways to do it which I'm sure other people will explain. I just prefer personalized training.

As for the ramp up sets it depends on the percentages used. If you plan to do 5 reps at the top set thats around 75-80% RM.

I'm personally not a fan of accessory work and would be happy to not have them (except possibly leg curl (for my knees) and facepull (for posture, shoulder, scapular, traps and upper back health) - but would I put leg curl with deadlifts and facepull with bench

Yeah that would work.

Also having 4 lifts you could use an approach of having a heavy day for 1 lift paired with a light day of another one and alternate days. So could do Heavy day squat+light bench on day 1 and heavy deadlifts +light row on day 2 and then change it for the next 2 days if you can do 4 days in a week. For heavy you could use more volume and for light less volume. Usually for light I would do up to 20 reps per exercise at around 75% RM or slightly less and for heavy 30+.

You can also choose a classic 5x5 for all lifts except row, I would keep that higher reps. Add 5 lbs for bench and squat and 5 for deadlift each week until the 5x5 is not doable anymore. You could start with doing 5x5 with a weight you do 10 reps. Can't go wrong with doing 5x5.

You have a lot of other options that can be more or less complicated. At the end of the day choose something, start it, adjust if needed and learn on the way.

Also I was drinking a Belle Gloss pinot noir from California.

 

[Warzone2022]

I use a very similar strategy but incorporate also 4 accessory lifts that shadow the main lifts:

Squat - quad accessory such as hack squat, leg extension, sissy squat

Deadlift - hamstring accessory such as leg curl

Bench - anterior shoulder pushing accessory such as landmine press

Row - posterior shoulder accessory such as high pull or upright row.

This allows me to stagger primary and accessory to limit training burnout. Plugged into a 2 day routine one upper and one lower will be primary paired with an accessory:

Squat + shoulder pull
Hamstring curl + bench

Deadlift + shoulder push
Hacksquat + Row

Mentally and physically, approaching a session with nothing but heavy compound lifts I cannot maintain training inertia. This type of breakdown also provides somewhat overlapping stimulus to the same muscle groups but using different movement patterns, which really triggers good size and strength gains if eating for it, and respectable strength increases if not.

Set/load/rep has too many variations to list, a DeLorme inspired approach has always worked well for me with the biggest effort on the last set. This being with straight sets, Clusters, whatever. The more I use Clusters the more I like them.

Have also gotten very good results breaking the above in half and doing a four day rotation, mentally it is very easy to hard train two exercises (plus some a few sets of abs and bicep/tricep alternating.

So in my case it would look like this if I've understood correctly?

Pull
Deadlift
Row
Leg curl
Facepull (can't do uprights and high pulls)

Push
Squat
Bench press
Leg extension
Landmine press


Or do a push pull on same day?

Workout A
Squat
Row
Leg extension
Facepull (same as above)

Workout B
Deadlift
Bench
Leg curl
Landmine press

Would Curls be beneficial anywhere on here where its a smart decision?

Thankyou

 

[Warzone2022]

It means that if on day 1 one you do 20 reps, on day 2 of the same week do 24 or 16. This is something I use for as well for weekly volume. Have a 20% difference between each week. But it's only 1 type of work based on Plan Strong. There are other ways to do it which I'm sure other people will explain. I just prefer personalized training.

As for the ramp up sets it depends on the percentages used. If you plan to do 5 reps at the top set thats around 75-80% RM.



Yeah that would work.

Also having 4 lifts you could use an approach of having a heavy day for 1 lift paired with a light day of another one and alternate days. So could do Heavy day squat+light bench on day 1 and heavy deadlifts +light row on day 2 and then change it for the next 2 days if you can do 4 days in a week. For heavy you could use more volume and for light less volume. Usually for light I would do up to 20 reps per exercise at around 75% RM or slightly less and for heavy 30+.

You can also choose a classic 5x5 for all lifts except row, I would keep that higher reps. Add 5 lbs for bench and squat and 5 for deadlift each week until the 5x5 is not doable anymore. You could start with doing 5x5 with a weight you do 10 reps. Can't go wrong with doing 5x5.

You have a lot of other options that can be more or less complicated. At the end of the day choose something, start it, adjust if needed and learn on the way.

Also I was drinking a Belle Gloss pinot noir from California.

Sounds lovely that

So I could do a heavy/light 2 day split

Week 1
Workout A
Heavy Squat
Light Bench

Workout B
Heavy deadlift
Light Row

Week 2
Workout A
Light squat
Heavy Bench

Workout B
Light deadlift
Heavy Row

And do leg curl on Workout B and facepull on Workout A? Or not at all if I wish?

 

[watchnerd]

The research these days suggests doing different cycles across a range of set / rep ranges leads to the most hypertrophy.

So train a cycle in the "strength zone", train a cycle in the "muscle building" zone, and train a cycle in the "pump zone".

Even though I spend most of my time in the strength/power zone for sport reasons, my recent experiences with BFR seem to fit this.

 

[william bad butt]

There are hundreds of ways to do this.... And they can all work! You can run this program for the next decade, making small tweaks here and there, to continue to make progress.

My thoughts based on my experience:
- Start very very simple. Add complexity later when you need it. If you start too complex, right now, then you won't have any tricks left up your sleeve, in the future when you will need them. Honestly, I would just start out without anything extra.
- Sets of ~5 between 60-80% max should be where you live. And train for strength for a long time until you are at your genetic limits. Then train for hypertrophy (and maybe power, or both).
- Accessory lifts are great. But don't just add them to add them. There needs to be a reason. If you have no reason, then skip it and just add more back off sets. For example, sometimes after my working sets are complete Ill add 50% of max to the bar and do 4s x 10r. Or do nothing else. No accessories for cycle 1. And experiment on future cycles with different accessories.
- Example: Over 6 workouts do 5x5 with 1 top sets and ramp up the weight. Session 1 work up to 60%, 2=65%, 3=70%, 4=75%, 5=80%, 6=85%, 7=Deload. Then repeat and when you get to 85% the next time, try to add more reps or an extra 5 lb.... Just try and progress. Do more, whether it is weight, volume, more sets, slower tempo, less rest, etc... This is just an example.

Just do it, go through the motions, and you will figure it out. You will have Eureka moments and think you have it all figured out. Michael Brian Turner of 2021 who can lift 250 lb will have mastered his programming. But then realize that these tricks don't work for the Michael Brian Turner of 2022 who can lift 300 lb, because of new leverages/weak points/injuries/etc...
- Start simple, and try to stay simple. Long term consistency is way more important than having the best program.

You have some great advice from these other folks. And these other folks are a lot smarter than me. But I figured I'd share some very general advice.

Regards,

Eric

 

[Daniel Vintila]

Sounds lovely that

So I could do a heavy/light 2 day split

Week 1
Workout A
Heavy Squat
Light Bench

Workout B
Heavy deadlift
Light Row

Week 2
Workout A
Light squat
Heavy Bench

Workout B
Light deadlift
Heavy Row

And do leg curl on Workout B and facepull on Workout A? Or not at all if I wish?

Yes that can work. But make sure to cycle it. So you can do 4 to 8 weeks of muscle building phase where you have a higher volume, a deload week and then you can start a strength building phase.
As for if you want an accessory lift or not it is entirely up to you. If you haven't trained much barbell there is no need right now. But I would use them in a muscle building phase.
You can also use a light and heavy day with 5x5. The heavy day would be 5x5 and the light day 3x5 using the same exact weights on both days and keep adding a few lbs weekly until the last set of 5 is not doable anymore. This training is more towards strength with a bit of muscle on the side.
I personally find 5x5 to be one of the best ways of training a barbell, especially in the beginning. And from there move on with other ways. It is simple yet effective.

 

[Bauer]

Fabio Zonin has an interesting article that goes into a similar direction. Easy Strength style main lifts + higher rep accessory lifts. He has 6 movement patterns, but your 4 should work too.

You are being redirected...

 

[North Coast Miller]

So in my case it would look like this if I've understood correctly?

Pull
Deadlift
Row
Leg curl
Facepull (can't do uprights and high pulls)

Push
Squat
Bench press
Leg extension
Landmine press


Or do a push pull on same day?

Workout A
Squat
Row
Leg extension
Facepull (same as above)

Workout B
Deadlift
Bench
Leg curl
Landmine press

Would Curls be beneficial anywhere on here where its a smart decision?

Thankyou

More along the lines of:
Day 1
-Squat
-Facepull
-Leg curl
-Bench

Day 2
-Deadlift
-Landmine
-Leg extension
-Row

You alternate upper/lower, you could just as easily:
Day1
-Squat
-Landmine
-Leg curl
-Row etc

Bicep curls get put at end of session on Bench days, Triceps get trained on Row days. The idea behind this is that you alternate the heaviest lifts with accessory ones, more of a whole body upper/lower. Its not really a split because everything gets worked, just with alternating intensity. From time to time you deload the primary lifts and go after the accessories a little harder.

 

[Warzone2022]

There are hundreds of ways to do this.... And they can all work! You can run this program for the next decade, making small tweaks here and there, to continue to make progress.

My thoughts based on my experience:
- Start very very simple. Add complexity later when you need it. If you start too complex, right now, then you won't have any tricks left up your sleeve, in the future when you will need them. Honestly, I would just start out without anything extra.
- Sets of ~5 between 60-80% max should be where you live. And train for strength for a long time until you are at your genetic limits. Then train for hypertrophy (and maybe power, or both).
- Accessory lifts are great. But don't just add them to add them. There needs to be a reason. If you have no reason, then skip it and just add more back off sets. For example, sometimes after my working sets are complete Ill add 50% of max to the bar and do 4s x 10r. Or do nothing else. No accessories for cycle 1. And experiment on future cycles with different accessories.
- Example: Over 6 workouts do 5x5 with 1 top sets and ramp up the weight. Session 1 work up to 60%, 2=65%, 3=70%, 4=75%, 5=80%, 6=85%, 7=Deload. Then repeat and when you get to 85% the next time, try to add more reps or an extra 5 lb.... Just try and progress. Do more, whether it is weight, volume, more sets, slower tempo, less rest, etc... This is just an example.

Just do it, go through the motions, and you will figure it out. You will have Eureka moments and think you have it all figured out. Michael Brian Turner of 2021 who can lift 250 lb will have mastered his programming. But then realize that these tricks don't work for the Michael Brian Turner of 2022 who can lift 300 lb, because of new leverages/weak points/injuries/etc...
- Start simple, and try to stay simple. Long term consistency is way more important than having the best program.

You have some great advice from these other folks. And these other folks are a lot smarter than me. But I figured I'd share some very general advice.

Regards,

Eric

Thankyou so much Eric! This was brilliant,

So basically stick to my 4 lifts and when u plateau, make small tweaks, such as adding in more or less volume, or adding in back off sets etc, so in theory I'd not need the accessories, unless absolutely necessary?

So stick to the 4 lifts then

 

[Warzone2022]

Yes that can work. But make sure to cycle it. So you can do 4 to 8 weeks of muscle building phase where you have a higher volume, a deload week and then you can start a strength building phase.
As for if you want an accessory lift or not it is entirely up to you. If you haven't trained much barbell there is no need right now. But I would use them in a muscle building phase.
You can also use a light and heavy day with 5x5. The heavy day would be 5x5 and the light day 3x5 using the same exact weights on both days and keep adding a few lbs weekly until the last set of 5 is not doable anymore. This training is more towards strength with a bit of muscle on the side.
I personally find 5x5 to be one of the best ways of training a barbell, especially in the beginning. And from there move on with other ways. It is simple yet effective.

With the 5x5 and 3x5 will they be ramp up sets to a top set of 5?

So even on a muscle building phase I can just use the main lifts as an accessory like 531?

Bench press 5x5(ramp up top set of 5)
Bench press 5x10 (50% of 1rm)

And same for other main lifts?

 

[william bad butt]

Thankyou so much Eric! This was brilliant,

So basically stick to my 4 lifts and when u plateau, make small tweaks, such as adding in more or less volume, or adding in back off sets etc, so in theory I'd not need the accessories, unless absolutely necessary?

So stick to the 4 lifts then

Yes. You got it. Just focus on cycle #1 and use the KISS method.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

With the 5x5 and 3x5 will they be ramp up sets to a top set of 5?

Not necessarily. You can only do 5x5 right away and thats it.

 

[solarbear]

I think you can run some variation of what you are proposing for years.

I know I ran 531 using just Bench, Row, Squat for several years and never felt I was missing anything from my programming. It made me question the logic of doing all sorts of things like flyes and lat pulldowns and when I read about the 80/20 rule on Strongfirst my response was "True Dat!"

The way I did it was I did the % for the 5's on Sunday. And then would do the 3 and 531 % on Thursday. This seemed to give a nice balance of size and strength.

If I wanted to do deadlift I might do a ABA BAB like you have said. And I think it would work fine.

Using your exercises:
A Squat, Bench, Row
B Deadlift, Landmine Press, Face Pull

This should leave you with a lot of recovery time and if you really feel the need throw in a giant set for a fun bodypart like biceps from time to time, energy permitting. Or superset a couple of bodyweight exercises for fitness and endurance.

Someone has suggested focusing on Strength for a couple of weeks and then Mass for a couple, running through little phases. I have done this and thought it was successful. It was the way my football program was designed way back in the day and worked for most of the team. We would do 2 week cycles of strength and then 2 weeks of mass, then it would increase to 3 weeks, then 4. Then we'd start at 2 and repeat.

Lots of ways to do your sets and reps. I would work out in the 1-5 range for strength and 6-10 range for mass. 5x5 and 8x3 would work fine. A couple that have not been mentioned but I find them incredibly time efficient:
One of my favourite ways to train for strength is to set a timer and do say 10-15 min of doubles or triples with a 5rm. Week 1 do doubles, Week 2 do doubles and triples, Week 3 do all triples.
My favourite for mass is to pick a weight I can do about 9-10 reps with, do 8... drop the weight 10% do 9... drop the weight 10% do 10.

 

[Warzone2022]

Yes. You got it. Just focus on cycle #1 and use the KISS method.

Yeah if I need accessory, I'll just add the mainlifts aa accessories like this

Bench press 5x5(ramp up top set of 5)
Bench press 5x10 (50% of 1rm)

And same for other main lifts, but if I need specifics like leg Curls due to my knee pain I'll add it in, but Facepull and landmine press isn't necessary for me now

 

[Warzone2022]

I think you can run some variation of what you are proposing for years.

I know I ran 531 using just Bench, Row, Squat for several years and never felt I was missing anything from my programming. It made me question the logic of doing all sorts of things like flyes and lat pulldowns and when I read about the 80/20 rule on Strongfirst my response was "True Dat!"

The way I did it was I did the % for the 5's on Sunday. And then would do the 3 and 531 % on Thursday. This seemed to give a nice balance of size and strength.

If I wanted to do deadlift I might do a ABA BAB like you have said. And I think it would work fine.

Using your exercises:
A Squat, Bench, Row
B Deadlift, Landmine Press, Face Pull

This should leave you with a lot of recovery time and if you really feel the need throw in a giant set for a fun bodypart like biceps from time to time, energy permitting. Or superset a couple of bodyweight exercises for fitness and endurance.

Someone has suggested focusing on Strength for a couple of weeks and then Mass for a couple, running through little phases. I have done this and thought it was successful. It was the way my football program was designed way back in the day and worked for most of the team. We would do 2 week cycles of strength and then 2 weeks of mass, then it would increase to 3 weeks, then 4. Then we'd start at 2 and repeat.

Lots of ways to do your sets and reps. I would work out in the 1-5 range for strength and 6-10 range for mass. 5x5 and 8x3 would work fine. A couple that have not been mentioned but I find them incredibly time efficient:
One of my favourite ways to train for strength is to set a timer and do say 10-15 min of doubles or triples with a 5rm. Week 1 do doubles, Week 2 do doubles and triples, Week 3 do all triples.
My favourite for mass is to pick a weight I can do about 9-10 reps with, do 8... drop the weight 10% do 9... drop the weight 10% do 10.

Thankyou for the idea, I've decided to run this (check attached file) however I'll be running it at 5x5 (ramp up to top set) with 1 accessory which is leg curl due to knee pain, but I'll only add accessorys where they are needed and not for the sake of it

If anything I'd use my main lifts as accessories too like 531 (first set last) where I drop the weight on the main lift and do sets of 10

Bench press 5x5 (85%)
Bench press 3-5x10 (50-60%)
Etc

 

[william bad butt]

Yeah if I need accessory, I'll just add the mainlifts aa accessories like this

Bench press 5x5(ramp up top set of 5)
Bench press 5x10 (50% of 1rm)

And same for other main lifts, but if I need specifics like leg Curls due to my knee pain I'll add it in, but Facepull and landmine press isn't necessary for me now

Yes. And honestly, for cycle #1 you may not need the backoff sets. Maybe for cycle #2 add 1 back off set. Cycle #3 2 back off sets.

I understand the enthusiasm of designing the perfect program. But do as little as possible so that you have room to add more. The less you do now the more room you have to grow in the future. This is a very simple concept that most people fail to grasp and why most people never progress beyond a beginner/intermediate level of strength.

You get the idea...