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Pain and recovery after training

Pavel.Kosenkov

Pavel.Kosenkov

Level 5 Valued Member
Guys, I have a question.
I see myself as an active individual. I train consistently for the 5 past years.
At the moment - on a barbell program, a short while ago - 1.5 years of kettlebells.
I have daily mobility sessions in the evening - 10-20 min in top of my training.
Plus social dancing.
At the age of 43(almost) - I notice that I quite often wake up with stiff body and joint pain. It takes me about an hour after waking up to start moving comfortably.

So - is there a way to train for healthier joints and connective tissue?
And also - what is your own experience?
 
@Pavel.Kosenkov, I think you're going to have to arrive at your own, personal solution to this. I will offer a few thoughts from my own experience.

I find allowing myself to wake up a bit without getting out of bed in the morning helps. If one is the type of person for whom the alarm goes off and wants more sleep, this may not work. I go to sleep pretty early and wake up without an alarm, and I give myself a few minutes before getting out of bed to stretch a little while still in bed.

I am a fan of what we call, after a book by Pavel, "fast and loose" movements. I think of these as what your wet dog does - he kind of shakes himself out. I've gotten used to doing these things while in the kitchen in the morning.

My last suggestion may seem self-evident, but if each of us wakes up with only a certain percentage of our mobility in the morning, the more you have to start with, the more you'll then have when you're at your worst, like first thing in the morning.

You might also try doing some things in the mornings - maybe fast-and-loose, maybe some of what you do in you evening mobility sessions.
What you do and when is, one's natural inclinations not withstanding, malleable - habits exist but new habits can be formed. I'll give you my personal example: I was never what I'd call a "morning person" - I liked to stay up late and sleep late. But then I started running in my late 20's, and I found that running outdoors in the summer in NYC in the middle of the day was a pretty miserable thing, so I learned to start running earlier and earlier in the day, and this created a permanent change in me - I became a "morning person" and now, 40 years later and in my late 60's, I still am. So you may find that simply doing some mobility work shortly after you awake will gradually change you to being more mobile in the mornings. In your honor, I just did a few toe-touches at 06:30. :) When you go to a powerlifting competition, the squats begin at 0900, another reason to get used to moving well in the morning.

Hope this is helpful to you.

-S-
 
Brett Jones said:
How old is your mattress?

That could be influencing how you feel in the morning.

Has the feeling in the morning increased since going back to the barbell?
Click to expand...
Quite old. Do you think that might be the problem?
On the second question - yes. Mostly my right shoulder. I am on a 4 week experiment at the moment - reduced frequency and trying to exclude one of the big 4 exercises per week. I have another week to go.
To my shame - my numbers on the bar are very modest for my bodyweight.
 
Nothing I have tried has worked better for this than overcoming isometrics. Don't get me wrong, the added fluid in my discs makes my back pretty stiff first thing in the AM, everything else feels pretty good.

I work in mfg facility and walk a lot for my job, every morning I have the opportunity to do a (personal) system check on my walk to the technician's bldg. Some days I'd swear I'm taking low dose corticosteroids, my joints and tendons feel so good. Its like going back in time to when issues like this weren't even a consideration.

I credit it not only with physical remodelling, but there genuinely is a pain-killing effect from chronic usage.
 
Steve Freides said:
@Pavel.Kosenkov, I think you're going to have to arrive at your own, personal solution to this. I will offer a few thoughts from my own experience.

I find allowing myself to wake up a bit without getting out of bed in the morning helps. If one is the type of person for whom the alarm goes off and wants more sleep, this may not work. I go to sleep pretty early and wake up without an alarm, and I give myself a few minutes before getting out of bed to stretch a little while still in bed.

I am a fan of what we call, after a book by Pavel, "fast and loose" movements. I think of these as what your wet dog does - he kind of shakes himself out. I've gotten used to doing these things while in the kitchen in the morning.

My last suggestion may seem self-evident, but if each of us wakes up with only a certain percentage of our mobility in the morning, the more you have to start with, the more you'll then have when you're at your worst, like first thing in the morning.

You might also try doing some things in the mornings - maybe fast-and-loose, maybe some of what you do in you evening mobility sessions.
What you do and when is, one's natural inclinations not withstanding, malleable - habits exist but new habits can be formed. I'll give you my personal example: I was never what I'd call a "morning person" - I liked to stay up late and sleep late. But then I started running in my late 20's, and I found that running outdoors in the summer in NYC in the middle of the day was a pretty miserable thing, so I learned to start running earlier and earlier in the day, and this created a permanent change in me - I became a "morning person" and now, 40 years later and in my late 60's, I still am. So you may find that simply doing some mobility work shortly after you awake will gradually change you to being more mobile in the mornings. In your honor, I just did a few toe-touches at 06:30. :) When you go to a powerlifting competition, the squats begin at 0900, another reason to get used to moving well in the morning.

Hope this is helpful to you.

-S-
Click to expand...
+1 For Steves advice. I do the same thing. I'll remove the covers and slowly pull one knee up to my chest and hold it for a little bit and then do the same with the other leg. I'll pull one arm over my chect and hold it for a second and then repeat with the other. Rotate my wrists and ankles, slowly make a fist, ect... There's tons you can do before getting out of bed.
 
I'd echo what Steve and Brett said - look at your mattress, training, sleep patterns and start there.

If your technique is bad on the barbell lifts and/or you're just pushing too hard for your current strength levels, then that needs to be addressed.

I don't know what your training looks like, but you may need to do more upper back work to balance out your pressing. I would chill out on the pressing a bit, or find more shoulder friendly versions if you can until that shoulder pain rectifies (or you rectify it).

You might also consider doing some "YATs" and shrug stuff w. bands - I find them to be an easy way to do some preventative maintenance. (cued to start at the YATs)


Also, like Steve said, age and "experience" is going to humble us all.
 
Mattress could be an issue for sure.

The change in training and stress on certain areas would also be a factor.
 
I have periodically reflected on the ambient sensations of fatigue and soreness and discomfort I feel throughout my days and weeks.

W/respect to beds
I have periodically had to sleep on cots in barracks, beds in hotels, and dug out positions in the dirt amongst the trees while training.

This has always had profound deep effects on how I felt when I was awake. It is difficult to overstate the magnitude of the effect on my waking hours.


W/respect to training.
It is an important part of my bargain with fitness that I feel better, not worse, overall.

On my experience with barbell training.
I can say that my work with barbell always exacted a larger recovery cost. More days feeling sore. More rest needed between sessions. I get stronger and bigger when I have the additional loading. And I generally feel bad most of the week outside of my training. Sore tired and stiff.​
​
Fwiw my favorite training frequency for barbell work has been between 1x and 2x sessions per week. If I can rig it so I'm practicing a lift on Monday and Friday one week and Wednesday the next, that's given me more than enough time to recover some times. And I still see adaptations.​

On my experience with kettlebell training.
My kettlebell work is easier to take in doses that I could use more frequently and paid less, in terms of giving up some of that ambient discomfort.​
​
My peak levels of comfort and lowest levels of discomfort have repeatedly been observed during a cycle of 044 Q&D snatches. Less than 1 hour a week. Having excess energy, that gets that itch to workout more on my off days. Feeling great when I get up and go to bed.​
​
I believe there is some truth to the idea that mitochondrial conditions are part and parcel to these sensations.​

To reiterate, I agree with Steve and Brett.
Sleep is king in recovery. Give your bed some consideration.

I'll throw in an indignant quip from Mr. Mark rippatoe on evaluating your program.

Does this need more work or less work? ​

Often times it's the case that we can just adjust the volume a bit and get things right. Shave off a set or two and see how your recovery helps you cope with your training.

In general I've received an outsized benefit from a single heavier top set versus lower weights and additional sets. But that's something I've only discovered through experimentation.
 
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Pavel.Kosenkov said:
At the age of 43(almost) - I notice that I quite often wake up with stiff body and joint pain. It takes me about an hour after waking up to start moving comfortably.

So - is there a way to train for healthier joints and connective tissue?
And also - what is your own experience?
Click to expand...
I will be 41 this summer, so I feel similar sometimes. I usually do some kind of light mobility in the morning; some light stretching and breathing drills, some original strength style work, and sometimes some grease the groove work.

This is just my own experience:
I lived through a movement disorder, which has left repurcussions throughout my body, that I still deal with every day. So, I am used to things not feeling right. That said, I have learned to find things that make me feel better.

What has helped me is finding what makes me feel better, and focusing on that. I know that is very general. What I mean is that I have learned different ways to perform lifts and movements, as well as posture, throughout my days. A lot of what has helped me is attention to how I feel throughout my day. I find myself holding tension in unwanted ways, or leaning really far forward at my work desk, etc...

@Pavel.Kosenkov do you sit at a desk much? I find that since I sit more often (being in university) I have a lot more aches and issues. Being aware of how I am sitting throughout my studies has helped. A lot of it has to do with where I am holding my center of mass.

I think a lot of people tend to hold their center of mass forward a bit, both standing and sitting. A lot of people also hold their weight shifted to one side. There's nothing inherently "bad" about this; it's common and normal. It can, however, cause you to hold excess tension in certain places. If your center of mass is always "off center," then your body has to find a way to keep you from tipping over, so you might get tension in certain areas.

I also believe you have posted about back issues? Do you think you hold extra tension in your body to "guard" against tweaking your back? That might be another thing to consider.

As you might have guessed, I am big on letting go of tension, and moving as naturally and relaxed as possible. That helps me overall. You might check out the Feldenkrais method, which is all about how to move with as little effort and tension as possible.

Hope something in there is helpful.
 
I'm soon to be 56 and wake up every morning with a stiff body and have so for maybe 5 years. I remember when I was younger and I could actually sleep in, especially if it were hungover. I could actually sleep all day and zero back issues.

I actually can't sleep in anymore because my back starts to hurt and I need to get up and start moving.

These days my morning routine looks like;
Get up and feed and walk the dogs
Make a coffee
Cook and eat breakfast
Head to the basement for a little start the day workout of a few sets of dead bugs and 15 minutes on the treadmill.

By this point I'm pretty much ready to tackle the day!
 
The best solutions have already been given but consider trying to lower body inflammation through supplementation. A high quality fish oil is something to consider and also melatonin . . .
 
I will share my experience with you. The only time I experienced something similar to yours was when I was giving a shot to One Arm Swings and GTUs w 16 kg for a month.

Initially I felt great, after a sedentary life + later mostly BW workouts, first time my hinge pattern was getting a bit of love and I was feeling like I was young again when walking etc.

But then the morning pains started.

I have posted in this forum my Swing and TGU form and received a lot of great feedback, only to recognize that I can’t do what were being advised to me due to lack of stability, RoM or control or Strength gaps.

I was simply not ready to start one arm Swings and TGU and hence although 16 kg was the right on weight to start for me, my body was not ready to move in good form, that 16 kg was smashing me in practice in the ways seen in my form videos and my shoulder and back in the ways that can’t be seen.

Now I am practicing fundamentals w Kat’s Dojo KB program and using Mind The Gap program.

And I now realize bit by bit, my bad form was really detrimental.

You may need a coach for Barbells or you may need to re look at your forms via a beginners program.

Just my experience,

Best;

Ege
 
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