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Kettlebell Perceived level of exertion...not feeling like I'm doing enough?

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m_harv_colorado

m_harv_colorado

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Hi. I am 42 years old. I consider myself an athlete. Still compete in paddling events for 4 months out of the year and basically just love being outside doing sports, skiing, trail running, mountain biking, but my first love is kayaking and now stand up paddleboarding.

About 4 years ago I started Crossfit. It really changed my fitness and mobility in a positive way. I felt stronger and more athletic than I had through most of my 30's while greatly improving my mobility on movements I had completely ignored in sport specific training, like squats.

That said I am currently suffering from what I can only describe as burnout. I am getting minor injuries more frequently, but the main thing is I leave a workout feeling tapped. Sometimes it take me a couple of days to recover.

Seeking something new I read S&S and have been practicing that protocol for the past month. It's been great in a lot of ways. I enjoy the fact that I can still go ride my bike or do something after training and I recover the next day really well. Right now I only have a 45lb KB so that is what I have been using.

My question is basically I can't shake the nagging feeling that I'm not doing enough. I am used to that feeling of having to lay on the floor after a workout...totally crushed. I guess I am trying to understand if I am really doing enough? Do you mix in higher intensity movements like burpees to get your heart rate up?

I understand that I still need to practice sport specific training, but what I am attracted to with the S&S protocol is the fact that I feel like I can keep doing this while I train in the water. Thanks in advance for your advice and guidance. I have really enjoyed reading through the posts on this forum since I discovered it.
 
That nagging feeling of you getting crushed, that is your body heading towards burnout or injury. That it takes you a day to recover is heading towards burnout and injury.

You are on a sustainable program now. Enjoy it. Who wants to have energy for one thing and one thing only?
 
you're describing symptoms of overtraining- likely brought on by working out too hard in an unsustainable way. Can cause a lot of damage to the body- take some time to let your body heal and get back to better health and more resiliency. If you're doing S&S by the book, following the cues and progressions in it, you're doing plenty for general fitness. Lots of people get "addicted" to "feeling the burn" and all that rot, but that's a good thing to get over. Just try to do what you can recover from before your next session; don't push beyond that. I used to paddle white-water canoe, long before I did S&S, but I imagine it would be incredible for it given what it does for your obliques and shoulders.
 
Burn out, do all out enough on outdoor activities you enjoy. For training, I like what Kelly Starrett said about adaptation. Paraphrasing, don't lay flat on your back after training. Walk, move or do light sport specific movements of your choice to adapt the training results to your body for an hour. In another words, you should not be emptying your gas tank from training.
 
I know what you're talking about; I think your weight is too light for you. If after you get a heavier weight you still feel that nagging feeling, try adding 4-6 short intervals (20:40 work:rest) a few times per week, ideally something without much eccentric loading like rowing which would also be a little sport specific. Pushing or pulling a sled would be another good alternative without much eccentric loading that would let you go to your cave a little without it interfering much with your other training.
 
If you want to "lay on the floor after a workout, totally crushed", join a Muay Thai Gym, and ask their champ for a couple of rounds.

As for S&S, do the program the letter - no burpees. Long term improvement is the only thing that matters in SAS - when my S&S feels easy, I am happy. Eventually, get a heavier bell, and proceed according the S&S plan.
 
Hello,

m_harv_colorado said:
I can't shake the nagging feeling that I'm not doing enough. I am used to that feeling of having to lay on the floor after a workout...totally crushed
Click to expand...
Slow and steady win the race...without injury. Lots of people involved into CF suffer from injuries (either major or minor) after 38-40 yo (from what I understand of the comments).

Pushing oneself hard from time to time, well why not. Doing it everyday is not sustainable IMO because it can lead to injury and overtraining. I believe it is far better doing a little everyday without rushing. You will reap more benefits because you won't be sore and you will recover faster.

S&S will give you performance and strong athletic base without crushing.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
It is very tough to break that mindset. I was always thinking that I hadn't worked hard enough if I wasn't gassed at the end of my workouts. When I started using kettlebells, I still had that thought process. What I found helped me was resting between sets until my heart rate was recovered. As in, if you start out at 75 bpm after warming up, then you don't start your next set until you are back there. I am 50, and this has helped me recharge myself instead of wearing myself out when I have completed my workout. I believe @Anna C called it training to recover instead of training to failure. Wise words.

Tex1972 said:
This is sort of similar to my thread itching to add to S&S. It's a mindset you need to get out of..especially over 40 ;) I also was of the mind that i hadn't worked out unless i was soaked in sweat and half dead. I am working on getting out of that mindset though.
Click to expand...
 
One thing that helps break out of the mindset is focusing on the volume of work that is done, rather than how hard you feel like you worked.

With an S&S session, if you go for the time standards you will feel like you worked hard. But if you stretch it out with plenty of recovery, you won't feel this so much -- you will feel recharged and ready for more. So stop to realize, it's the exact same volume of work! In fact, you may actually do more work with the "plenty of recovery" session, because your sets are more powerful and precise. You'll get better power training, better technique improvement, same calorie expenditure, better energy systems training, less stress, lower risk of injury... it's a win all around.

Over time, if you can increase the volume of work that is done (more weight in S&S, or more weight and/or volume in other programs), and still feel recharged and ready for more, you're doing it right. I can say I do this in my own training; have seen steady increases in what I can do with very infrequent setbacks. I work hard, but I very rarely feel worn out at the end of a session.
 
Hello,

Anna C said:
how hard you feel like you worked
Click to expand...
It is very interesting because it underlines the notion of intensity.

Then, does it mean that, training session after training you increase your intensity ? Indeed, you always have the same volume, but you do it with less time.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Tex1972 said:
This is sort of similar to my thread itching to add to S&S. It's a mindset you need to get out of..especially over 40 ;) I also was of the mind that i hadn't worked out unless i was soaked in sweat and half dead. I am working on getting out of that mindset though.
Click to expand...

I think we all are.
 
+1 to @Pavel Macek
"As for S&S, do the program the letter - no burpees. Long term improvement is the only thing that matters in SAS - when my S&S feels easy, I am happy. Eventually, get a heavier bell, and proceed according the S&S plan."


Do the program as outlined. If it's still "too easy" after a few months, you need a heavier bell. Make that your focus. Work your way to Simple (32kgs).

Trust the process. You will get surprising results if you do. Imagine something feeling "easy" and leaving you with extra energy for other pursuits, but still giving you the strength, mobility and conditioning you need. Sounds good to me!
 
pet' said:
It is very interesting because it underlines the notion of intensity.

Then, does it mean that, training session after training you increase your intensity ? Indeed, you always have the same volume, but you do it with less time.
Click to expand...

Well, I like to put things into a mathematical representation. Let's look at it in terms of S&S swings, 10 x 10 1H swings in a training session. We know there are two variables (A) time and weight (B). I would argue there are other variables: power availability (C) and power used (D), representing the efficiency aspect of the swing as described in S&S chapter "The Secret of Hardstyle Laziness" (pg 63-65). "Hard style laziness works only for the strong." So the 4th variable comes into play later in training.

A = Time to complete 10 x 10 swings
B = Weight used (15, 24, 32 kg, etc.)
C = Power potential; assigning an arbitrary value of 1-10
D = Percentage of available power used

Let's take a moderate, un-impaired male trainee through S&S starting now. Progress varies of course, so this is all hypothetical:

Jan 2017 - Skill practice: goblet squat, kettlebell deadlift 16kg, get-up with shoe.
Feb 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, kettlebell deadlift and/or 2H swings with 24kg (50-100 total), get-ups with 16kg.
Mar 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, 2H swings if needed, and/or 1H swings with 16kg or sets of 5 with 24kg, get-ups with 16kg.
Apr 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, 1H swings with 24kg in sets of 5-10 (100 total) with 24kg, get-ups with 16kg and a few with 24kg.
May 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, swings with 24kg (1H swings in sets of 10 for 100 total from here forward) with 24kg, get-ups with 24kg.
June 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, swings with 24kg, get-ups with 24kg.
July 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, swings with 24kg, get-ups with 24kg.
Aug 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, swings with 24kg, get-ups with 24kg. A few high intensity sessions, and able to meet time goals strongly with 24kg.
Sept 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, swings with 24kg with a few sets with 32kg, get-ups with 24kg and a few sets with 32kg.
Oct 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, swings with 24kg with about half of the sets with 32kg, get-ups with 24kg and about half of the sets with 32kg.
Nov 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, swings with 24kg and more sets with 32kg, get-ups with 24kg and more sets with 32kg.
Dec 2017 - S&S warm-up with 16kg, swings with 32kg, get-ups with 32kg
Jan 2018 - S&S warm-up with 16-24kg, swings with 32kg, get-ups with 32kg
Feb 2018 - S&S warm-up with 16-24kg, swings with 32kg, get-ups with 32kg
Mar 2018 - S&S warm-up with 16-24kg, swings with 32kg, get-ups with 32kg A few high intensity sessions, and able to meet time goals with 32kg.
Apr 2018 - S&S warm-up with 16-24kg, swings with 32kg, get-ups with 32kg A few high intensity sessions, and able to meet time goals strongly, any day, with 32kg. Simple achieved!

So focusing on the swings, let's look at the time period between Dec 2017 and Apr 2018. Continuous solid work with the 32kg. What is happening with the variables?

Dec 2017 - A = 15 min, B = 32kg, C = 5, D = 100
Jan 2018 - A = 14 min, B = 32kg, C = 6-7, D = 100
Feb 2018 - A = 12-14 min, B = 32kg, C = 8-9, D = 100
Mar 2018 - A = 10 min, B = 32kg, C = 10, D = 80
Apr 2018 - A = 5-10 min, B = 32kg, C = 10, D = 50 - 80.

What does this mean? Well, the trainee is using max power all the way up through February, taking plenty of time for the sessions. Therefore, the Power potential (C) is increasing with training. In March, he starts dialing the power back and becoming more efficient. This brings the time down rapidly. (Note: If he started doing this too soon, he would limit his development of power).

In April 2018, his power potential is high with the weight used, and he can dial back the effort and easily meet the time goals with the 32kg. The same thing happened earlier with the 24kg in May - Aug 2017.

So back to @pet' s question, what does that mean for intensity? Well I would say that intensity for the session is higher in Feb than it is in Apr, but intensity for the time is higher when the time is compressed.

Thanks for following... I hope some of that makes sense!
 
Anna C said:
Thanks for following... I hope some of that makes sense!
Click to expand...

I like the comparable visual and maths representation of power development to capacity. And the timescale is pretty accurate, especially so as mine took a little longer.....one of those impaired types!
Unimpaired now though!.......well it's all relative.....
 
Anna C - that looks like an article....

rotation of intensity, volume etc... is part of good programming

Pavel joked that intensity isn't a "turned around baseball cap" (Over the Top reference - its movie for the young folks).

Some training sessions should be purposefully easy
Others should be all you want to do for that day
Most should be in between

We tend to "burn the engine" too hot too often - your car would break down and so will you.

Enjoy the reps, enjoy the process
 
When we speak on "intensity" I think we have some communication and definition problems from time to time.

As far as I know* in traditional strength training "intensity" is the percentage from ones MAX - meaning 85% lift is by definition more intense than 70% lift. The session intensity is a average intensity of a work-set lift. How the lifter feels have nothing to do with it. I think that the D parameter (Percentage of available power used) in @Anna C hopefully-soon-to-be-article is even better gauge for intensity in ballistic movements, were the weight used is far from telling the entire story (maybe dividing B by D can give some meaningful data as well...).

I think that along the time HIIT joined the club "intensity" (in training) changed it's
meaning and feeling were introduced. From that point intensity changed to something more along the lines of rate-of-perceived-effort (which is actually very clear in the title of this thread). While by itself changing the definition of something is not an issue, if this creates communication errors it is somewhat problematic IMHO.
Intensity today has too many definitions...

@Anna C parameterization of training variables is a great example of clarity. This enables better understanding and therefore discussion of the subject, as is exemplified in her post.

What I'm trying to say is
Thank you Anna :)

* some references that define intensity in this manner (%MAX): Supertraining, Westside barbell book of methods, Easy Strength, any parentage-based program
 
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