Pistols, lunges, and squats

[TMRowlett]

Are these for the most part interchangable in terms of GPP?

I have always seen 3 movement patterns for the legs which would be huge, squat, and lunges. My experience has been if I do squats it doesn't quite hit the lunge the way the body mechanics want to work in the lunge. If I don't work the lunge and out of nowhere do a bunch of lunges I usually get cramping pain in my hamstrings that tells me I better not do another set of lunges or I won't be able to walk very well for the next 3 days.

That said I love a minimalist approach to the gym due to a lot of responsibilities outside the gym. I would love to just do hinge, squat (goblet squats, or jumping squats to increase the intensity and force requires in the lift due to lower weight), press and throw in some pull ups but I always feel like if I don't hit the lunge I missing the cherry on top.

Do you see lunges as a necessary primary movement if you're already doing squats?

Also I would like to practice pistol squats because, although they don't hit the back like barbell squats, it's a great way to progressively load the legs without a squat rack.

If I feel I need to do lunges will pistol squats work the legs close enough to a lunge to sufficiently replace the lunge better than two legged squats?

As I am writing this I may continue to work hinge, squats, press,and pull ups 3 days a week and just alternate the type of squat pattern each day while keeping everything else the same. So one day do squats with swing and presses and then the next workout day do lunges with swings and presses and the third day of training do pistol squats. That way I'm still essentially working the squat pattern in a different way but hitting the different movement patterns and loading the squat the way I want.

The only negative I see would be not "greasing the groove" which can add to your strength gains when working the same lift over and over practicing and adjusting the form and subtle adjustments.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Hung]

do a bunch of lunges I usually get cramping pain in my hamstrings

are you sure is the hamstring? im thinking it's adductor

how heavy is your squat in training?

 

[TMRowlett]

I don't have a squat rack so I haven't done heavy squats for over a decade. It's mainly squats with a lighter weight with one leg or I do a jumping squat with lighter weight.

Even when I did squats with a squat rack lunges would generally stress the back of my legs more, which I've always thought WA my hamstrings but I am not that well versed in anatomy so maybe it is my adductors. I'm not sure though now that your bing it up.

 

[Tjerr]

A squat movement pattern is a motion where there is maximal flexion in the hips, knees and ankles, motion of the hip is down.

You can do this in a symmetrical stance: back squat, front squat, goblet squat. An asymmetrical stance: lunges, (Bulgarian) split squats, kickstance squats. In a Single leg stance: Pistols, step ups, step downs.

And even side ways, but those could be put under asymmetrical: side Lunges, Cossack squats and Curtsys.

If I program for people, I pick 2 to focus on for 6 sessions (per exercise) and rotate.

Example: Session A/Session B
Phase 1: goblet squat / lunge
Phase 2: split squat / step up
Phase 3: box-pistol / front squat
Phase 4: back squat / side lunge.

Etc.

 

[sfast]

Are these for the most part interchangable in terms of GPP?

I have always seen 3 movement patterns for the legs which would be huge, squat, and lunges. My experience has been if I do squats it doesn't quite hit the lunge the way the body mechanics want to work in the lunge. If I don't work the lunge and out of nowhere do a bunch of lunges I usually get cramping pain in my hamstrings that tells me I better not do another set of lunges or I won't be able to walk very well for the next 3 days.

That said I love a minimalist approach to the gym due to a lot of responsibilities outside the gym. I would love to just do hinge, squat (goblet squats, or jumping squats to increase the intensity and force requires in the lift due to lower weight), press and throw in some pull ups but I always feel like if I don't hit the lunge I missing the cherry on top.

Do you see lunges as a necessary primary movement if you're already doing squats?

Yes. There are many benefits to the lunge compared to the squat (shear forces on the knee of the back leg, stabilisation etc.)

Also I would like to practice pistol squats because, although they don't hit the back like barbell squats, it's a great way to progressively load the legs without a squat rack.

If I feel I need to do lunges will pistol squats work the legs close enough to a lunge to sufficiently replace the lunge better than two legged squats?

As I am writing this I may continue to work hinge, squats, press,and pull ups 3 days a week and just alternate the type of squat pattern each day while keeping everything else the same. So one day do squats with swing and presses and then the next workout day do lunges with swings and presses and the third day of training do pistol squats. That way I'm still essentially working the squat pattern in a different way but hitting the different movement patterns and loading the squat the way I want.

The only negative I see would be not "greasing the groove" which can add to your strength gains when working the same lift over and over practicing and adjusting the form and subtle adjustments.

Any thoughts on this?

My personal solution is to program two slots for each general pattern: One for the main lift. For me, it is the box pistol for lower body push. One for variety: Here, I alternate between lunges, jump lunges, various directions of lunges, skater squats etc. In my main lift, I control the progression tightly (e.g. planned periodisation). In my open slot, I go more by feel and have a rougher idea of what I need to do for the stimulus.

 

[the hansenator]

I like to keep both squats and lunges in the mix and change which one I emphasize, and then do few easy sets of the other as warmup or finisher.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Imho, they are not interchangeable. Obviously there is "transfer" - transfer to what and how much will depend on a lot of things but, imho, if you really go "deep" with one, that will reap more benefits towards all than half-assing all 3 of them.

 

[GovernorSilver]

In Mind The Gap, Brett Jones states he practices airborne lunge and single leg deadlift because his injury history rules out pistol squats. For him, the single leg work "minds the gap" that can form if all your squatting is bilateral - eg. deficiencies in stability/balance, strength differences between legs, etc.

 

[John K]

Imho, they are not interchangeable. Obviously there is "transfer" - transfer to what and how much will depend on a lot of things but, imho, if you really go "deep" with one, that will reap more benefits towards all than half-assing all 3 of them.

Largely agree with this. I've found that squats make my legs strong, and then when I start doing lunges it takes a couple weeks to get them "up to snuff" endurance wise so I can start really training them. On the other hand, when I'm hammering lunges, my lunges don't seem to carry over to my squat much in terms of strength, but give me pretty good endurance in the squat - reps for days in my legs, and then it is usually just lung-dependent restrictions.

 

[Fitoldguy]

Here are a couple of short studies completed by Mountain Tactical Institute on the use of a circuit MTI calls Leg Blasters, that you might find interesting as it relates to the efficacy of various forms of squats and lunges:

Geek Cycle: Leg Blasters Match Front Squat in Building Lower Body Strength - Mountain Tactical Institute

By Charles Bausman The Tactical Lab Rats here at MTI just concluded our 3-week Geek Cycle which consisted of four mini-studies comparing different methods of developing the following: Lower Body Strength Push Up Improvement Loaded Pull Up Improvement Power Development Findings and Discussion...

mtntactical.com

Leg Blaster

Leg Blasters v Quadzilla for Strength Gains | Mountain Tactical Institute

We did a quick study to compare if leg blasters or quadzilla work best for gaining strength in our legs. See the results of the mini study today!

mtntactical.com

Quadzilla Complex - Mountain Tactical Institute

2x Quadzilla Complex = 2x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges unloaded, each leg (4x total) 4x Squat Jumps 3x Quadzilla Complex = 3x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (6x total) 3x Jumping Lunges...

mtntactical.com

 

[bluejeff]

As I am writing this I may continue to work hinge, squats, press,and pull ups 3 days a week and just alternate the type of squat pattern each day while keeping everything else the same. So one day do squats with swing and presses and then the next workout day do lunges with swings and presses and the third day of training do pistol squats. That way I'm still essentially working the squat pattern in a different way but hitting the different movement patterns and loading the squat the way I want.

This is what I would do. If you would like more "greasing of the groove," just reduce volume per session, and increase sessions. You could alternate through all three over the course of five days, take the weekend off, then pick up where you left off next week. This way, you get variety, you get extra "practice" and since one pattern will see less total volume in a given week, it won't be "overloaded."

So this could look like:
-squat, lunge, pistols, 5 days/week, cycling through
-swings and presses 3 days a week

This would also make the two days where you're not swining and pressing your lighter days. You would get some extra movement, but it wouldn't be a "full" training session.

 

[TMRowlett]

Imho, they are not interchangeable. Obviously there is "transfer" - transfer to what and how much will depend on a lot of things but, imho, if you really go "deep" with one, that will reap more benefits towards all than half-assing all 3 of them.

No half passing here for sure.

 

[TMRowlett]

In Mind The Gap, Brett Jones states he practices airborne lunge and single leg deadlift because his injury history rules out pistol squats. For him, the single leg work "minds the gap" that can form if all your squatting is bilateral - eg. deficiencies in stability/balance, strength differences between legs, etc.

Great point.

 

[TMRowlett]

Largely agree with this. I've found that squats make my legs strong, and then when I start doing lunges it takes a couple weeks to get them "up to snuff" endurance wise so I can start really training them. On the other hand, when I'm hammering lunges, my lunges don't seem to carry over to my squat much in terms of strength, but give me pretty good endurance in the squat - reps for days in my legs, and then it is usually just lung-dependent restrictions.

Exactly my experience, which is what made me pose the question.

I would say the way the hips are loaded in a double leg squat is different from single leg work in terms of mobility as well as the over all increase load on the core and upper body in a double leg squat. The load in a single leg version most of the load seems to be on the legs themselves.

My only thinking was where or not that core and upper body load is necessary when your also doing swings or double clean and press which load the core and upper body well. I think the only thing you would be missing would be the mobility in the deep double leg squat and working that pattern under load. The question would be how crucial is that?

I don't have that answer.

 

[TMRowlett]

Here are a couple of short studies completed by Mountain Tactical Institute on the use of a circuit MTI calls Leg Blasters, that you might find interesting as it relates to the efficacy of various forms of squats and lunges:

Geek Cycle: Leg Blasters Match Front Squat in Building Lower Body Strength - Mountain Tactical Institute

By Charles Bausman The Tactical Lab Rats here at MTI just concluded our 3-week Geek Cycle which consisted of four mini-studies comparing different methods of developing the following: Lower Body Strength Push Up Improvement Loaded Pull Up Improvement Power Development Findings and Discussion...

mtntactical.com

Leg Blaster

Leg Blasters v Quadzilla for Strength Gains | Mountain Tactical Institute

We did a quick study to compare if leg blasters or quadzilla work best for gaining strength in our legs. See the results of the mini study today!

mtntactical.com

Quadzilla Complex - Mountain Tactical Institute

2x Quadzilla Complex = 2x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges unloaded, each leg (4x total) 4x Squat Jumps 3x Quadzilla Complex = 3x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (6x total) 3x Jumping Lunges...

mtntactical.com

My question with the study would be the fitness level of those involved in the study? I would imagine this would change the take away from the study.

In other words if those involved were not at peak performance or at least at an intermediate level there isn't going to be much difference in strength increase.

On the other hand if we were to test more fit individuals I suspect we would see more strength gains with those doing barbell squats.

That said if we were to continue to load the lunges with say a bulgarian sandbag we might continue to see a similar increase in strength gains in the squat.

It would be interesting to see the outcome of a test with both types of fitness levels.

 

[TMRowlett]

This is what I would do. If you would like more "greasing of the groove," just reduce volume per session, and increase sessions. You could alternate through all three over the course of five days, take the weekend off, then pick up where you left off next week. This way, you get variety, you get extra "practice" and since one pattern will see less total volume in a given week, it won't be "overloaded."

So this could look like:
-squat, lunge, pistols, 5 days/week, cycling through
-swings and presses 3 days a week

This would also make the two days where you're not swining and pressing your lighter days. You would get some extra movement, but it wouldn't be a "full" training session.

I agree. This is the approach I'm leaning towards.

I think alternating between the different squat variations continues to give a stimulus while hitting the various subtle differences with each and redoing the benefits without limiting the overall strength development in the squat.

I think this is especially true when you are working swings or double clean and press which puts the core and upper body under load. So you keep a stimulus going of the core and upper body while still stimulating the legs in single leg work. You also get the stimulus of the core and upper body under load when doing double leg squats though you're there only being rotated in.

The only down side I see is breaking the KISS principle here.

I guess we could make a case that it's still simple because we can break down the logic in our minds without writing it out in a piece of paper.

 

[John K]

Exactly my experience, which is what made me pose the question.

I would say the way the hips are loaded in a double leg squat is different from single leg work in terms of mobility as well as the over all increase load on the core and upper body in a double leg squat. The load in a single leg version most of the load seems to be on the legs themselves.

If you can only pick one, a bilateral squat is the most obvious answer. Getting that strong will result in stronger lunges; getting good at reps will get you better at doing lots of lunges.

My only thinking was where or not that core and upper body load is necessary when your also doing swings or double clean and press which load the core and upper body well. I think the only thing you would be missing would be the mobility in the deep double leg squat and working that pattern under load. The question would be how crucial is that?

I don't think that the "core and upper body load" of a squat is anyways similar to swings and DCP. Getting good at swings and DCP won't develop the core and upper body needed for a big squat. A double kettlebell front squat would have the most carry over.

 

[TMRowlett]

If you can only pick one, a bilateral squat is the most obvious answer. Getting that strong will result in stronger lunges; getting good at reps will get you better at doing lots of lunges.

I would agree with that however I don't think it would prepare you to load lunges as you would if you were regularly doing lunges and that is the issue that I see with taking a minimalist approach in this instants. Yes you will be better off than if you haven't even done squats but it still leaves lunges to be desired in my opinion.

I don't think that the "core and upper body load" of a squat is anyways similar to swings and DCP. Getting good at swings and DCP won't develop the core and upper body needed for a big squat. A double kettlebell front squat would have the most carry over.

I would have to disagree here. No it's not exactly the same but similar enough that you're going to stimulate the core with the legs working in conjunction with the upper body to be able to trade off single leg work for double leg squats so you don't have to squat multiple times a week.

In other words if your doing double leg squats once a week and substituting loaded lunges and loaded pistol squats along side swings or clean and presses I think you're going to see similar results in the double legs squat over time.

If your an elite power lifter than no but for the everyday person looking to be fit for performance I would say yes.

That's just my opinion. I'm not saying I'm right but.... I'm right.

I'm only joking about being right of course...sort of.

 

[John K]

I would agree with that however I don't think it would prepare you to load lunges as you would if you were regularly doing lunges and that is the issue that I see with taking a minimalist approach in this instants. Yes you will be better off than if you haven't even done squats but it still leaves lunges to be desired in my opinion.

I would have to disagree here. No it's not exactly the same but similar enough that you're going to stimulate the core with the legs working in conjunction with the upper body to be able to trade off single leg work for double leg squats so you don't have to squat multiple times a week.

In other words if your doing double leg squats once a week and substituting loaded lunges and loaded pistol squats along side swings or clean and presses I think you're going to see similar results in the double legs squat over time.

If your an elite power lifter than no but for the everyday person looking to be fit for performance I would say yes.

That's just my opinion. I'm not saying I'm right but.... I'm right.

I'm only joking about being right of course...sort of.

Okie dokie.

 

[Fitoldguy]

My question with the study would be the fitness level of those involved in the study? I would imagine this would change the take away from the study.

In other words if those involved were not at peak performance or at least at an intermediate level there isn't going to be much difference in strength increase.

On the other hand if we were to test more fit individuals I suspect we would see more strength gains with those doing barbell squats.

That said if we were to continue to load the lunges with say a bulgarian sandbag we might continue to see a similar increase in strength gains in the squat.

It would be interesting to see the outcome of a test with both types of fitness levels.

I know Rob SHAUL typically trains Mountain Athletes at his facility in Jackson Hole, both professional , as in Mountain Guides and competitive athletes, as well as recreational Mountain Athletes. If you look at the front squat #'s completed for the initial assessment, they are respectable for athletes that have to carry the engine and not strength athletes. I know Rob is always happy to answer questions relating to his programming and studies.