TMRowlett
Level 4 Valued Member
Good information. Thanks for sharing it.
Pistols, lunges, and squats
- Thread starter TMRowlett
- Start date
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
No, you're not.
You're absolutely not going "to see similar results in the double legs squat over time". Unless you're half-assing things and then well...
TMRowlett
Level 4 Valued Member
Sorry I'll have to disagree.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
Okay. You did ask for input...
TMRowlett
Level 4 Valued Member
Sure but the question was whether or not lunges can and should be considered a basic major movement pattern that should be trained along side squats and whether or nott why are interchangable.
I'm not advocating not squatting at all or completely substituting single leg exercises for the squat.
I'm not disagreeing just to be disagreeable. I'm just stating that I would not have the same conclusion you do in the matter.
What I am saying is the training the squat once a week is sufficient when you are simulating the same muscles with other exercises throughout the week, such as pistol squats, lunges, split squats (which can all be loaded) and along side of this your stimulating your core with heavy double kettlebell hinge movements. Yes all of these are different patterns, some more similar than others, but they stimulate the same muscles in the squat and along side squats worked directly once a week it's absolutely going to increase your double leg squat strength.
No it wouldn't suffice for a lower lifting program but for most people's needs it absolutely will.
Yes I posed the question that get input but it doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on the matter or that my opinion is even going to change, though it might with the right information, it just means it's something I have been thinking about and want to discuss it with others. I don't hold my opinion dogmatically but I do hold it and without a solid reason not to I will probably continue to hold to that opinion. The point is it's just an opinion. If there's evidence that shows my opinion is wrong then I wouldn't have an issue changing it.
I think you're talking about multiple things and when someone disagrees you fall back on a less controversial point. Here are what I consider your two most controversial statements:
Statement 1:
Statement 2:
Non-controversial Statements:
However, while no one NEEDS to train a back squat, but training some form of bilateral squat is probably a good idea, even if it is just for general mobility and the ability to stand up off a toilet or out of a chair unassisted. This is why it IS a basic movement pattern.
No one NEEDS to train a lunge, but it is a useful tool in the toolbox. It is contraindicated for a LARGE number of "every day" people and so I would NOT say EVERYONE needs to do it. A lunge is a fairly unique movement pattern that is not often seen throughout one's normal daily activities and so would not be as important to train, especially if that meant training it in lieu of ANY bilateral squat variation. This is why it is NOT a basic movement pattern. If, for some reason, some one has a lifestyle that necessitates regular daily use of a form of lunge, one could argue that it is then a basic movement pattern for that person.
Statement 1:
No. They aren't. You can get everything you can get from lunges from a back squat, but you can't get everything from a lunge that you can get in a back squat. This is why they are not interchangeable, and why lunges are not a "basic major movement pattern that SHOULD (emphasis added) be trained along side squats ..."
Statement 2:
Disagree. I don't think they are necessary and I do not think that they will definitely increase your double leg squat strength. This doesn't mean that they aren't useful, and it doesn't mean that SOME people might find carry over. But the stronger you are, the less I think this will have any carry over.
Non-controversial Statements:
Great. No argument here. And I'm not even attempting to argue that someone HAS to back squat.
However, while no one NEEDS to train a back squat, but training some form of bilateral squat is probably a good idea, even if it is just for general mobility and the ability to stand up off a toilet or out of a chair unassisted. This is why it IS a basic movement pattern.
Agreed. No argument here.
Largely agreed there. Folks that want to lift and have have what we can call general goals should do something that trains "legs" and a lunge checks that box. Primarily using the lunge - also fine and dandy. Using lunge as one variation in a weekly template that also includes a bilateral squat - also great. Maybe even better.
No one NEEDS to train a lunge, but it is a useful tool in the toolbox. It is contraindicated for a LARGE number of "every day" people and so I would NOT say EVERYONE needs to do it. A lunge is a fairly unique movement pattern that is not often seen throughout one's normal daily activities and so would not be as important to train, especially if that meant training it in lieu of ANY bilateral squat variation. This is why it is NOT a basic movement pattern. If, for some reason, some one has a lifestyle that necessitates regular daily use of a form of lunge, one could argue that it is then a basic movement pattern for that person.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
This kinda reads like a "Lunges are as good as squats. CHANGE MY MIND." post.
I don't know what to tell you other than it's not correct. I could lunge and pistol till the cows come home and I would NEVER get the strength gains I'd get if I just squatted. There is specificity involved w. pistols and lunges of course, but barring contraindictions or mobility/relative strength issues, a strong squatter will quickly be strong at pistols and lunges - the opposite is not true.
TMRowlett
Level 4 Valued Member
I'm not really sure what your talking about here? The discussion from my perspective isn't meant to be a serious discussion but a friendly one.
So the first statement you address is a statement I made that clarified my original question. My original question itself is not a statement. It's a question.
Where you quote me I wasn't stating the lunge is a major movement pattern (Although at this point I would hold that it is) but posing a question and also asking if single exercises are necessary along side the squat as well as whether or not they are interchangeable, so technically 3 different questions. To clarify as well I often pose questions because I am sort of thinking out loud so I don't always know how to communicate the question I'm thinking about and discussing it helps to clarify that for me. That doesn't mean I am trying to change what I'm saying during the discussion but rather my question becomes more clear for me during the discussion and my opinion also becomes more clear.
As far as them being interchangeable or not, I would agree that you're not going to get everything from lunges that you do from double leg squats, but I would argue that you don't get everything from double leg squats that you do from lunges. The question is do you get enough from squats where squats alone can eliminate the need to directly work squats? I'm not convinced that is fully the case.
I would agree that possibly for the everyday individual you might be able to get enough from squats to not have to directly work lunges however the more active you are I would say the more you would benefit from doing both. I think it has less to do with how strong you are and more to do with how active you are because the more active you are the more the lunge movement pattern is used in your activity. Running, biking, climbing stairs, ladders and hills etc. are all more active movements that are a lunge pattern. The more you do these and the more intensely you do then the more important that pattern becomes a more important pattern to train directly, that is of course if we can conclude it's necessary.
So my conclusion would be at this point it is a basic and major movement pattern. We hinge, squat, and lunge all dat every day. In fact one could argue the less you "need" lunges in life the more likely you are to die younger as it means you are less active and the weaker you are in this movement pattern the less active you be able to be later in life,but that's another discussion.
To clarify I didn't say they will alone increase your double leg squat strength. What I said was doing lunges or other single leg variations along side squats once a week, with the single leg days stimulating some of the same muscles, as well as doing heavy hinge exercises and a heavy press, this together would increase your strength in the squat as well as or similar to if you were only doing double leg squats 3 times a week. We could argue that you may not get there as quick but I would say you will get there the same otherwise and maybe in a similar time frame.
So no I did not say that lunges are going to increase your squat strength the same as doing double leg squats.
Now originally I was asking if they are "interchangeable", however that question was in the context of being along side heavy hinge training. I probably should have clarified that and that might be part of where the some confusion is coming from. I guess I just assumed it was a given since most all of Pavel's GPP programs are based on a major pull/ hinge and press.
In other words the question about where they are interchangeable was more can single leg exercises suffice to fully replace squats (to work the pressing or anterior function of thr legs) when done in conjunction with a heavy hinge focused protocol. That doesn't mean you are going to be able to squat as much as you could if you were training double leg squats but is that "necessary" to be able to do so? I think there is a possibility you would have a decent enough squat for it not to matter.
Why is this an important question? Because not everyone has easy access to a squat rack and it's difficult to load squats heavy without one.
Yes and wouldn't single leg exercises suffice for these activities? Also where you would need to strong hips and core working in conjunction with strong legs wouldn't a hea y hinge along side strong legs from single leg work suffice? Or would they? That is the question. I think an argument can be made that single leg work in conjunction with a heavy hinge is more important than the squat itself, though it doesn't mean there isn't a benefit to working all three.
Again lunges are used in everyday life just as much as a squat and hinge are. I don't see a lunge as less important than a squat. I just question how to make sure both patterns are covered in the most efficient way possible because a minimalist approach is one of my goals. I just don't want to lose our on performance for the sake of minimalist approach.
In conclusion my experience in my training has always been that if I don't do lunges for a while, even when still training squats, when I do them again I can really feel it in my hamstrings which has always made me feel the need to train them directly. In trying to minimize my routine I'm tempted to do away with them but I can't bring myself to do it. I just thought I would lose the question to the forum. I've also wondered if single leg exercises along side a heavy hinge and press protocol would suffice to do away with double leg squats, which I think an argument could be made for this, and Pavel himself even hints at this in PTTP. He argued that you're putting the same body parts under load and they are going to get strong. No it's not the same specific movement pattern so you won't be as strong in the exactly lift but you will be stronger in that lift by default and you will be just as strong because you are recruiting all the muscles to generate maximal force by thr body as a whole and with the whole body under load working together.
With all that said I'm sorry if my questions weren't completely clear at first or if I caused confusion by later taking a more dirn stance (I drew more conclusions through the discussion and thinking about the questions). I also didn't mena any offense in disagreeing with you. There is no real way to convey tone via text and often direct communication can come across as harsh or rude but it can be laboring to have to add fluff to your words to make sure the other person perceived you are being friendly. I hope no offense was caused.
TMRowlett
Level 4 Valued Member
Sorry if it comes across that way. That isn't the intent at all. It's more of "I've been pondering this and am looking for some input to come to a conclusion on it" kind of post.
As for single leg exercises getting you as strong as doing double leg squats that isn't what I am saying. What I am saying is single leg squats "along side" a heavy hinge press protocol could get you strong enough to not need double leg squats and are lunges necessary if you are doing squats? Are they interchangeable in that way?
My conclusions would be that they can be interchangeable but you will still benefit where your lifestyle demands the specific movement pattern that is missing from your training and the more active you are the more it's beneficial and or "necessary" to train both and both compliment one another that when doing both in a single program along side heavy hinge and presses they are interchangeable to stimulate increases in one both.
I'm not demanding I'm right on this but just expressing my conclusions.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
Just an FYI (and if you need an "appeal to authority") but Pavel was always pretty anti-lunge... Maybe he's not anymore, idk, but I doubt it.
Torin
Level 6 Valued Member
I'd take his disdain for lunges with a grain of salt.
Right after expressing his dislike for lunges in Beyond Bodybuilding:
He recommended this odd exercise from John Du Cane's dvd:
I think that I'll be sticking with the lunges...
TMRowlett
Level 4 Valued Member
TMRowlett
Level 4 Valued Member
The Secret to Big Deadlifts: Do the Small Things | StrongFirst
I want to give some suggestions on how to stay healthy while gaining strength in your deadlifts and other barbell lifts.
www.strongfirst.com
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
I was basing my post on an actual conversation I had with Pavel. Like I said, it was a long time ago, so maybe his stance has changed.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Didn’t have the time to read all of the last few replies here, but here are a couple thoughts.
I also wouldn’t discount lunges because you have to use “lighter weights.” You’re still loading the muscles. If however, you want a big squat, you should focus on squatting.
Depends on how you want to define “simple.” Clean and press, swing, a few legs movements….that certainly doesn’t sound “complex” to me.
While they don’t really resemble walking, they certainly are closer to the gait pattern than a squat. Necessary, though, probably not.
? I don’t think I would call a lunge a “unique movement pattern.” If I get up and down off the ground, it’s almost always one leg at a time. A lunge is also much much easier (if taught and performed correctly) to load the legs of someone has mobility issues, and variations of them can be used to improve things like hip internal rotation, which many people lack. I think squats get defaulted to perhaps because they are easier to load. Not saying one is better than the other, however.
I also wouldn’t discount lunges because you have to use “lighter weights.” You’re still loading the muscles. If however, you want a big squat, you should focus on squatting.
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
The Secret to Big Deadlifts: Do the Small Things | StrongFirst
I want to give some suggestions on how to stay healthy while gaining strength in your deadlifts and other barbell lifts.www.strongfirst.com
I’d agree with the article.
TMRowlett
Level 4 Valued Member
Let's Get Lateral | StrongFirst
The kettlebell swing alone may cover a great percentage of a human's athletic needs, but those who participate in activities that require good lateral motion, strength and stability can benefit from sprinkling in some lateral variations—such as the side-stepping swing and goblet lunge.
www.strongfirst.com
Here's an interesting article on adding lunges and it's benefits.
Why wouldn't you classify them as a "lift"? Where is the dividing line between lift and "exercise"? To me an exercise is done without load and lift is performed under load. The load may not always be maximal to the whole body but certainly maximal in that particular movement.
How are we defining "lift" and "exercise" here?
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
In relation to that article, lift is the main exercise. Bi lateral exercise are an accessory used to support the main lift.
I’m not sure why they made that differentiation. But the context clues make it pretty clear of their meaning. I wouldn’t worry about nitpicking definitions when their intent is clear.
Personally I think all lifts are exercises and all exercises are not lifts.
I’m haven’t seen anyone say that adding unilateral work doesn’t have benefits. The criticism is treating the unilateral work as the main lift.
Are there situations that require it? Of course.
If you want to treat lunges as your main lift, go for it. It just doesn’t really match the goal of getting generally stronger when you have access to equipment allowing a properly weighted main lift.
Torin
Level 6 Valued Member
Background
I've focused on single leg work for grinds for a long time.
This was largely because I ran a moving company and had to be able to carry heavy equipment or furniture up stairs if a crew needed help.
During that time, I rarely went above 350lb in split stance deadlift or 170lb in front rack split squat.
These are relatively light weights, but they were enough for the lower leg strength I needed.
I could have lifted more using bilateral versions, but single leg variants don't trash the back which is important if you use your back at work. They also improve the ability to drive off of the leg when ascending stairs with a load.
My Experience
In my experience, focusing on single leg exercises is fine if you add load. I love Pavel's "Naked Warrior" program for example (as long as the single leg squats are loaded).
However, you'll add strength faster and in greater quantity if you use bilateral exercises. (Or doing both like you've said)
Also, if you're using Kettlebells to load your single-leg squats, then you'll be limited by how much weight you can get into and hold in the rack rather than how much weight your legs can push.
Using Both
I personally prefer to cycle between variations rather than including them in the same cycle, so I would do squats and lunges in separate cycles.
I don't think anyone has to do both unless they want to.
YMMV.
I've focused on single leg work for grinds for a long time.
This was largely because I ran a moving company and had to be able to carry heavy equipment or furniture up stairs if a crew needed help.
During that time, I rarely went above 350lb in split stance deadlift or 170lb in front rack split squat.
These are relatively light weights, but they were enough for the lower leg strength I needed.
I could have lifted more using bilateral versions, but single leg variants don't trash the back which is important if you use your back at work. They also improve the ability to drive off of the leg when ascending stairs with a load.
My Experience
In my experience, focusing on single leg exercises is fine if you add load. I love Pavel's "Naked Warrior" program for example (as long as the single leg squats are loaded).
However, you'll add strength faster and in greater quantity if you use bilateral exercises. (Or doing both like you've said)
Also, if you're using Kettlebells to load your single-leg squats, then you'll be limited by how much weight you can get into and hold in the rack rather than how much weight your legs can push.
Using Both
I personally prefer to cycle between variations rather than including them in the same cycle, so I would do squats and lunges in separate cycles.
I don't think anyone has to do both unless they want to.
YMMV.