Barbell Powerlifting Squat in Olympic Shoes?

[Steve Freides]

Just curious because I'm considering it - has anyone ever worn Olympic lifting shoes and used a high bar placement for their squat in a powerlifting training and then also in meet? I'm guessing some have because they prefer that type of squat stance, but I can't recall seeing it.

-S-

 

[Antti]

At least around here, weightlifting shoes are the standard nearly everyone uses while powerlifting. I suppose some odd ones go with Chucks and every now and then someone goes just in socks. But weightlifting shoes, especially Adidas shoes, are clearly the #1 choice. And my choice as well.

High bar placement is something I rarely see. I've just been watching the Finnish nationals, that are going on this weekend, on Youtube. I don't think I saw anyone squat high bar, but then again, I didn't watch all of them and might have concentrated on something else. But in my experience it is rare.

 

[Steve Freides]

My understanding is that Oly shoes are a detriment and not a help to a low-bar squat - but I really don't know.

I'm considering taking another crack at the Inman Mile, likely summer of 2019 because I have a June PL meet in 2018, but high bar back squatting is where the bar needs to be for taking a walk with the bar so far as I can tell, so I'm thinking that high bar squatting is better practice for me - good to become solid with the bar where I'm going to need it.

-S-

 

[Oscar]

@Antti What would be the point of high heels if the idea is keeping the shins vertical in the low bar version? I don't have experience with either, just curious

 

[Antti]

I think classic vs equipped and narrow vs wide stance play big roles. And of course we all have individual variables, in mobility and skeletal and muscular structure etc. I'm mostly only interested in IPF classic lifting so my views are skewed because of that.

It may be that you really have no other options but to try, which may not be cheap.

 

[Antti]

@Antti What would be the point of high heels if the idea is keeping the shins vertical in the low bar version? I don't have experience with either, just curious

Most of the raw lifters' knees move forward in the lowest position. Equipped lifters are another case. Stance width plays a big role, which is influenced by the gear. And lastly, the needed depth seems to vary between federations, which of course matters a lot as well.

 

[CraigAlexanderWigham]

@Steve Freides

Here is a video (the first 5 minutes) that demonstrates the issues with High Bar Back Squat ;

It may be possible to prevent these issues though if your squat form with high bar is exeptional ie a very straight bar path up and down, which the lifting shoes will help with, as will a style like Max Aita shows in this video;

I hope this helps.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Someone correct me if my geometry is wrong, but if the depth standard is that the crease of the hip must be below the knee joint, if you increase the height of the knee with OL shoes, wouldn't that make getting to depth easier? Depends on the heel height of course. Most standard shoes are only 3/4" so not a huge difference. I have VS Athletic shoes which have about 1.5", which is considered very high. I bought these shoes because they were the least expensive, and they are comfortable on my wide-ish feet.

I really like lifting in my OL shoes because they fit my wide-ish feet while providing a solid sole like Converse. I tried Converse Chuck Taylors and Innov-8 Minimalist and both felt tight.

I also feel that OL shoes make going deep a bit easier and I feel more stable at the bottom. I think these would also be advantageous in a low-bar squat, but that would depend somewhat on stance width. I squat high bar with a stance slightly wider than hip width with feet turned out slightly. I go as low as I can.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

At least around here, weightlifting shoes are the standard nearly everyone uses while powerlifting.

Based On WHAT?

This is the type of stuff that makes me crazy, "Guessing" without any data to substantial a statement like that.,

Thus, it at best "Questionable" IF "Weightlifting shoes are the standard" that "nearly everyone uses while powerlifting; around here.

Weightlifting Shoes For Powerlifters

Weightlifting shoes shift the load more toward the Quadriceps.

Powerlifters traditionally use Converse Chuck Taylor shoes because it allows them to "Sit Back" in the Squat, shifting the load to the larger posterior chain muscles.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

My understanding is that Oly shoes are a detriment and not a help to a low-bar squat -

Good Point

With that in mind, some lifter are the exception to this rule.

Squats Part 1: Fold-Ability and Proportions


This 5:34 minute tutorial by Tom Purvis (Physical Therapist) provides a stick figure analysis that determine the most effective Squatting Technique based on your body type.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

@Antti What would be the point of high heels if the idea is keeping the shins vertical in the low bar version? I don't have experience with either, just curious

High Heel Shoes

The primary purpose of using a High Heel Shoe is in shifting the load to the Quadriceps.

A High Heel Shoe doe this by allowing you to maintain a more upright position, which places the Quadriceps under a greater load.

This is the reason for...

Front Squatting With an Elevated Heel

It shift the load to the Quadriceps.

Olympic Lifters

The enormous Quads. That due to the fact that the peform Front Squat with more upright posture; the also High Bar Squat with a more upright posture.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Antti]

Based On WHAT?

This is the type of stuff that makes me crazy, "Guessing" without any data to substantial a statement like that.,

Thus, it at best "Questionable" IF "Weightlifting shoes are the standard" that "nearly everyone uses while powerlifting; around here.

Chillax. "Here" is a geographical location, that I believe Steve understood well. The data comes from my observations and discussions, again done around here. I haven't read any studies about the subject, and I doubt there are any.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

The data comes from my observations and discussions, again done around here.

Confirming that you are guessing.

Olympic Shoes or Chucks for Squats? | T Nation

Here's what you need to know...

1. Heel lifts help you stay more upright during the squat and prevent a valgus collapse caused by imbalances in the lower body musculature.
2. Olympic shoes could help you early on in your squatting career, but they could hinder performance later.
3. The majority of record-holding powerlifters don't wear Olympic shoes.
4. If you have a quad dominant squat with a narrow stance, or have hypertrophy-oriented goals, Olympic squat shoes may be right for you.
5. If you have a hip dominant squat with a medium to wide stance and strength-oriented goals, Chuck Taylors may be your best choice.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[jef]

What you have is an unconfirmed hypothesis, a guess.

We fully agree on that.
My point is that guessing is good, because it allows hypothesis. But we should not stop there, and we need to confirm the hypothesis. Data gathering is one way.

For this thread, I can only contribute with my own anecdotal personal experience. I have weightlifting shoes. I bought them instead of powerlifting shoes, because I also plan to do more olympic weightlifting, one day.
I have used them for squats, and am happy with them but:
- my stance is not super wide as in powerlifting competition, but about shoulder wide;
- so my shins do not stay vertical (about above the toes at the bottom of the squat);
- I use a low bar position now, and have used a high bar position before (while thinking it was low bar...);
- my squat is not very heavy and very far from powerlifting standards. My current tested 1TRM is just around 1,7 BW.

I like the shoes because of the perfect stability when I wear them. Much better than converse-like shoes.

The other feature (elevating heel) is less critical for me. I am a special case, because I have very flexible ankles. I have not noticed differences in the mechanics of the squat with or without them. On the other hand, pistols are way easier when I wear them, so there is obviously a difference.
It triggered my curiosity, though. I will video myself this month, squatting with or without the shoes, and analyze the mechanics.

 

[Steve Freides]

Gentlemen, play nice and that's an order, not a request.

I appreciate everyone's input, and the fact that at least _some_ people compete at PL meets in the SQ in Oly lifting shoes is all I was looking to ascertain. I don't care of it's 1% or 50%, just wanted to know that I'm not completely crazy for contemplating it.

That said, I will expand a bit further on my own goals for squatting and my experience with the lift.

When I practiced a more of less standard PL type of squat, three things happened: my squat got better, my deadlift got better, and I got hungry all the time and started putting on enough muscle that, had I kept it up, I'd have eaten my way out of my current weight class. It the hungry all the time aspect that I want to do without.

I'm not interested in having a good/big squat in any style. I am, however, interested in loading my squat for several reasons. For one, I feel like both the front squat and the highbar back squat have potential to help my deadlift start without putting a huge amount of meat on me.

For another, I also hold the world record for the Inman mile in my age and weight class, and I'd like to better that, and since the bar is held in a squat position, that position is of interest to me. I don't think that a low-bar position is a viable way to carry a loaded barbell for a mile, and I think a high bar position is what I used the last time I trained for the Inman, which was in 2014.

In my current, off-meet training cycle, I'm doing a single set of FS and a single set of HBBSQ, 2-3 times per week. High rep, 8-12 reps in a set, probably will add a second set at some point. I'm enjoying it - Barbie weights on the bar but I'm finding my groove in both.

(FWIW, I'm also going the same in the BP now, another lift I don't compete in. Currently 3 sets of 8, triple progression style - add weight to the bar every workout so long as I get 3 sets of 8, and when I don't, stay with that weight until I do. At some point, I'll switch to 5's, then triple then doubles and test a max, and I may even BP in a lower meet in March for the heck of it.)

So, after I remind y'all yet again to play nice, my question is whether HBBSQ in Oly shoes will help my DL start more than doing it in my socks or in Chuck Taylors, and the same question goes for my FS. I'm not sure anyone here can answer because some of this depends on my build, my particular strengths and weaknesses, and other factors as well. But that's why I asked.

Remember, play nice.

-S-

 

[Antti]

Confirming that you are guessing.

Olympic Shoes or Chucks for Squats? | T Nation

Here's what you need to know...

1. Heel lifts help you stay more upright during the squat and prevent a valgus collapse caused by imbalances in the lower body musculature.
2. Olympic shoes could help you early on in your squatting career, but they could hinder performance later.
3. The majority of record-holding powerlifters don't wear Olympic shoes.
4. If you have a quad dominant squat with a narrow stance, or have hypertrophy-oriented goals, Olympic squat shoes may be right for you.
5. If you have a hip dominant squat with a medium to wide stance and strength-oriented goals, Chuck Taylors may be your best choice.

Kenny Croxdale

Guessing? I suppose I don't really understand English that well.

For what it's worth, I just had a look at the Finnish IPF classic nationals in 105kg class. At least 9/15 lifters used OL shoes. Or then I am blind. I have no doubts someone will believe so. I could try to be a fashion reporter and check out the other classes but I don't really want to, I believe I've already made my point with just the first one that came up.

I tried to make it clear earlier on that my view on the subject is strongly influenced by my views about powerlifting. That means IPF and classic/raw lifting. I have no doubt this distinction has an effect on the discussion. That's why I tried to make it clear. Maybe I didn't do it in the first place, mea culpa, but for sure I did right in the next one.

I have no interest in getting in a pissing match about the subject. If nothing else, let's agree to disagree. I will not name any lifters or such, if you don't believe, you don't believe me.

 

[Steve Freides]

I just deleted 4 posts from this thread. I'll delete more if need be.

Play nice, please!

-S-

 

[Antti]

I just deleted 4 posts from this thread. I'll delete more if need be.

Play nice, please!

-S-

What on earth can make shoes such a hot topic? I could understand it if we were on a forum for high fashion or such, but here, on a strength forum?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

my question is whether HBBSQ in Oly shoes will help my DL start more than doing it in my socks or in Chuck Taylors, and the same question goes for my FS. I'm not sure anyone here can answer because some of this depends on my build, my particular strengths and weaknesses, and other factors as well. But that's why I asked.

Deadlift Back Drive

Research by McLaughlin/PhD Exercise Bimechanics (posted at this site before with the article cited) have demonstrated that the majority of Conventional Deadlifters with max effort attempts break the weight off the floor via back drive rather than "Leg Pressing" the weight off the floor.

Additional research articles in the National Strength and Conditioning Research Journals support McLauglin's finding. I can provide that information, if necessary.

Thus, the common belief and recommendation to drive your feet into the ground, "Leg Pressing" the weight off the floor doesn't work with a max all out Deadlift, as per McLaughlin's biomechanical research found.

McLaughlin's finding were that in a Conventional Deadlift the firing sequence is Back > Leg > Back.

With that said, the Quad also play a vital role for Conventional Deadlifters. Strengthening the Quads synergistic assist and ensure additional dive off the floor.

The Back initiates the drive off the floor in a max effort Conventional Deadlift and then the Leg Kick in. It's a "Bang-Bang" sequence that hard to detect.

Quad Exercise For The Deadlift

1) High Bar Squats: Elevated heels place a greater load on the Quads.

2) Front Squats: This is a Quad Dominate Exercise. Heel increase the loading on the Quads.

3) Leg Press: This is a good Quad Dominate exercise for the Deadlift.

4) Quarter Squats: Placing the bar in a Power Rack in a depth position that simulate your Leg Height Starting Position is a very effective Deadlift Exercise.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[ClaudeR]

I'll stay out of the powerlifting and pros and cons of raised heel shoes for 1rm events discussion, as it is largely irrelevant to your specific case!

If I understand your event correctly you will have to walk a mile with a weighted bar on your back?

My question then is, what shoes will you be doing the distance in?
Even if they allow to train up to heavier weights, your event is a strength endurance feat and as such requires a different level of specialization. If you grease your groove with raised heel shoes but then perform the event in flats that might throw your balance and groove off enough to make the event miserable at best, or your training ineffective and a failure at worst (barring injury of course).
A mile is a lot of steps, performing with a groove you're not used to seems not the best course of action

You've done this before, you will know best if increased weight but in different gear is useful or not!

Of course you might actually do the event in the lifting shoes, in which case I would strongly advise to go rucking in them to get used to them. Again, it's a long event if your feet or back are not used to raised heels

Btw, what is your current record? I am intrigued