Kettlebell Productive Path to Long Term Goals

[Anna C]

Continues to be a great thread...

@Gary Logue I'm curious if you've given much thought to what you will become in the process of getting to the ability to do these things. Mostly I mean physically, but mentally as well. I believe that it will be positive in both realms, but the changes can be significant and you have to accept them also. To a non-trivial degree, you will change who you are through this work. Bigger, stronger, more muscular, more intimidating perhaps... knowing yourself better, more resilient, an example for others... just a few thoughts, but there are many more aspects. Like, you'll be the friend who gets called every time there's furniture to move. I'm just thinking that taking on a bit of this identity, either going into it, or along the way, will help enable your transition and transformation. Or perhaps you have given this a lot of thought and is the source of your inspiration - with the goals just providing the beacon to guide you down the road of who you want to be.

 

[Gary Logue]

Continues to be a great thread...

@Gary Logue I'm curious if you've given much thought to what you will become in the process of getting to the ability to do these things. Mostly I mean physically, but mentally as well. I believe that it will be positive in both realms, but the changes can be significant and you have to accept them also. To a non-trivial degree, you will change who you are through this work. Bigger, stronger, more muscular, more intimidating perhaps... knowing yourself better, more resilient, an example for others... just a few thoughts, but there are many more aspects. Like, you'll be the friend who gets called every time there's furniture to move. I'm just thinking that taking on a bit of this identity, either going into it, or along the way, will help enable your transition and transformation. Or perhaps you have given this a lot of thought and is the source of your inspiration - with the goals just providing the beacon to guide you down the road of who you want to be.

@Anna C I definitely hadn’t looked at it this way tbh. I just want to get as strong as possible, be a good role model for my sons and have the strength/endurance to handle anything that comes my way into old age.

What you have outlined above though is pretty inspiring and taking on this identity may be just what is required when things get boring, short term goals aren’t achieved or I get an injury set back. Thank you!!

 

[Gary Logue]

It just depends on your training history. If you've been training for a long time, you'll definitely need a caloric surplus to gain appreciable strength. Especially the amount youre hoping to gain. Bulking and then cutting while maintaining strength is a far far quicker route to improving relative strength measures.

IMHO you would need to practice all three lifts to get there

@Dayz you mentioned the Wendler programme, do you have any experience of this variation Boring But Big: Beefcake Training

It could be a good option with light assistance work focused around the beast tamer trio.

Is the BBB version necessary do you think?

 

[Gary Logue]

I'd also strongly advise doing some regular playful movement variety, such as Original Strength. As you get older you lose freedom of movement two ways. Gradually and then suddenly (to steal a line from Hemingway). The more movement variety you engage in, the less you lose, and the less "mobility" or "flexibility" or, God forbid, "corrective" training you will need, the less likely you are to get injured, and the more free-flowing your movement will be.

@Steve W. would 5-10 minutes of original strength 5-6 days per week be substantial? Should this be combined with other mobility routines such as flexible steel or super joints? There are some good 5-10 minute routines on each. I can realistically afford 10 minutes before training (4x per week) and another 10 minutes here or there.

 

[Steve W.]

@Steve W. would 5-10 minutes of original strength 5-6 days per week be substantial? Should this be combined with other mobility routines such as flexible steel or super joints? There are some good 5-10 minute routines on each. I can realistically afford 10 minutes before training (4x per week) and another 10 minutes here or there.

To me, the key is to make it non-goal oriented, exploratory play. Spend some time moving in ways you don't in normal training or in more targeted mobility or flexibility training.

It can be a little something most days, or one day where you spend more time, as long as it's regular and consistent. I grab moves from Original Strength, Scott Sonnon, Ido Portal, D i c k Hartzell (Jump Stretch -- I had to space out the letters in his first name because the language filter on this site does not approve of the nickname for Richard), Pavel, and all kinds of other places. Some stuff is unloaded, some with bands, and some with clubs and maces, and I also count regular walking with my dog. It also doesn't have to be part of a training session. There are things I do for thirty seconds or a minute here and there throughout the day. I tend to gravitate to low load/higher velocity things because they help keep me loose and dissipate residual tension from higher resistance training and spending a lot time doing desk work, but there are also lots of more static things that I do.

As you experiment with different things, you'll probably discover go-to favorites that you enjoy doing and that help you feel good, but always keep trying new things. The idea isn't to follow a routine, but to do things outside your routines, and that complement/supplement your routines.

Flexible Steel is a good program, is fully compatible with the kind of movement exploration that I'm trying to describe, and has a lot of overlap with it. But, as a program, it's more targeted and focused. It's the kind of thing that you practice and work on and make progress in.

In my previous post, I used the Hemingway line (in The Sun Also Rises, a character uses it to describe how he went bankrupt) that you lose freedom of movement two ways, gradually and then suddenly. It really does sneak up on you. You might feel you don't really need this kind of work into your thirties or forties, but then one day wonder, "What happened?" Conversely, you might start doing some of this movement play and not feel like it's doing anything for you. The benefits sneak up on you with regular and consistent engagement. And depending on your age, where you are now, and your movement background, it may be more in the realm of maintaining capabilities you would otherwise be slowly losing.

 

[Dayz]

@Dayz you mentioned the Wendler programme, do you have any experience of this variation Boring But Big: Beefcake Training

It could be a good option with light assistance work focused around the beast tamer trio.

Is the BBB version necessary do you think?

I haven't tried that template, but I did do the standard BBB template, and the inverted version, for a long time with great results. Before doing that i would run 5x5 or starting strength though.

I should note, my powerlifting experience was confined to a two year period about 10-12 years ago. I then fell in love with endurance sports and MA so didn't continue.

But I believe those programs are still very widely used.

 

[Anna C]

@Dayz you mentioned the Wendler programme, do you have any experience of this variation Boring But Big: Beefcake Training

It could be a good option with light assistance work focused around the beast tamer trio.

I found in early 2019 that hard-ish barbell strength training did not mix well with some bodyweight work as I prepped for SFB. Specifically, low bar squats and light pistol squats. Pistols require less tension in the posterior chain and I tweaked my back muscles a couple of times trying to do both in a session. But it just depends what is "light assistance work" to you... I fully agree with @Steve W. thoughts on continuing to include movement variety! Just remember that your body tends to want to keep more tension when you're doing pure strength-building work. I suppose you can get used to always doing both. These days I'm doing mostly weightlifting and of course that requires constant mobility work alongside strength and power. So I try to do it regularly, but I only feel like I get truly relaxed and mobile when I've had a couple of rest days in a row.

 

[Gary Logue]

I haven't tried that template, but I did do the standard BBB template, and the inverted version, for a long time with great results. Before doing that i would run 5x5 or starting strength though

@Dayz Just so you are up to speed as might help with your advice, I ran Faleevs 5x5 at the end of last year with great results. I hadn’t done much barbell work in 4/5 years at that point so may have been novice gains. Gyms closed and life got in the way and I lost a bit of the strength I had gained.

I like the idea of running something like this again and hopefully still benefit from novice gains before moving to an intermediate programme.

I found in early 2019 that hard-ish barbell strength training did not mix well with some bodyweight work as I prepped for SFB

Thanks for the tip. I’ll keep an eye on that.

 

[Ryan T]

This is a great thread; kudos for starting it and wanting to continue to build greater health in your life. @Anna C and @Steve W. Have given you great advice. Thinking in terms of beacons is a game changer.

My only add as someone who is guilty of putting a whole bunch of awesome looking goals out there is to remember than you are training to live, not living to train. If I’m being honest with myself, some of those goals have come from seeing the incredible things that other people can do (here at S1, other forums I’m on, and other walks of life) and then fantasizing about being able to do them myself.

Certainly be inspired by others, but aspire to be yourself first and foremost. I’m telling you what I tell myself every day

 

[Gary Logue]

This is a great thread; kudos for starting it and wanting to continue to build greater health in your life. @Anna C and @Steve W. Have given you great advice. Thinking in terms of beacons is a game changer.

My only add as someone who is guilty of putting a whole bunch of awesome looking goals out there is to remember than you are training to live, not living to train. If I’m being honest with myself, some of those goals have come from seeing the incredible things that other people can do (here at S1, other forums I’m on, and other walks of life) and then fantasizing about being able to do them myself.

Certainly be inspired by others, but aspire to be yourself first and foremost. I’m telling you what I tell myself every day

@Ryan T great advice thank you

 

[Steve Freides]

He's [Pavel Macek] also very very light

I take issue with this statement. Both @Pavel Macek and I are quite close to what was considered "normal" weight in the mid-20th century in the US.

When I was a child, the figure often cited for ideal adult male weight here in the US was 150 lbs, which is 68 kg. A little Googling finds that the average American male weighed about 166 lb (75 kg) during the 1960's, and that average wasn't ideal, it was just average, and average height was 5' 8" (1m 73). While we Americans have gotten about 1" taller, our average weight has grown disproportionally. Average now is apparently 5' 9" (1m 75) and 200 lbs (91 kg).

-S-

 

[Dayz]

While we Americans have gotten about 1" taller, our average weight has grown disproportionally. Average now is apparently 5' 9" (1m 75) and 200 lbs (91 kg).

Hi Steve, apologies if my post seemed to convey some offence, that was definitely not my intention. The part I've quoted above was exactly my point, compared to the average, he's very light. And that comes with heaps of benefits, endurance, speed, relative strength.

 

[Steve Freides]

Hi Steve, apologies if my post seemed to convey some offence, that was definitely not my intention. The part I've quoted above was exactly my point, compared to the average, he's very light. And that comes with heaps of benefits, endurance, speed, relative strength.

I wasn't offended. I did want to offer a different perspective.

He's also very very light ...

He, and I, are lighter than "the average" but "the average" is not something to aspire to. The average person is overweight.

I'm not sure his results are typical though.

Typical is also not something to aspire to. @Pavel Macek's results are exceptional but they needn't be, and the same could be said of my far more meager, but still exceptional by today's standards, results. That I hold as many powerlifting records as I do is more of a comment on the sad state of health today in Western societies, and the US in particular, than it is on my strength.

I realize I'm focusing on a point to excess here; I do it because I think it's very important. We now return you to your previously scheduled program, already in progress.

-S-

 

[Dayz]

I wasn't offended. I did want to offer a different perspective.



He, and I, are lighter than "the average" but "the average" is not something to aspire to. The average person is overweight.



Typical is also not something to aspire to. @Pavel Macek's results are exceptional but they needn't be, and the same could be said of my far more meager, but still exceptional by today's standards, results. That I hold as many powerlifting records as I do is more of a comment on the sad state of health today in Western societies, and the US in particular, than it is on my strength.

I realize I'm focusing on a point to excess here; I do it because I think it's very important. We now return you to your previously scheduled program, already in progress.

-S-

You've taken what I said way, way out of context and set up a bit of a straw-man. That's why I thought you might be offended.

We were all talking about strength training and increasing strength, both relative and absolute (in line with TS's goals). I'm not talking about the fact that the average adult weighs 90kg (or whatever). In a vaccume that means nothing. One could be an obese, untrained 90kg, a 3% bodyfat bodybuilder full of steroids, or a tall and skinny 200cm individual. All would still be average weight. Like I said it means nothing without context and is clearly not what I was referring to.

What I was referring to, was the established fact that if an individual strength trains and gains muscle, they will gain weight. Becoming heavier will make that individual stronger in absolute terms and potentially relative terms too, depending on the situation. I'm not talking about averages in the general population, but increasing muscle mass (weight) as an individual to get stronger. Because that is what happens.

Weight categories in powerlifting exist for a reason. They reflect the facts I've outlined above.

Any way you look at it, 68kg (for example) is extremely small, especially in the context of trained individuals. It comes with some huge benefits, for sure, but it is very small.

 

[Steve Freides]

You've taken what I said way, way out of context ...

I admitted I took the thread in a different direction. This is the Internet - it happens all the time.

... and set up a bit of a straw-man.

No straw man intended.

That's why I thought you might be offended.

And I am still not offended, but I am troubled. Plenty of things trouble but don't offend me.

Any way you look at it, 68kg (for example) is extremely small, especially in the context of trained individuals.

No. The way I look at it, it's not. We haven't evolved to have a larger weight-to-height ratio in the 66 years I've been alive. We're a little taller and therefore can and should be proportionally heavier, but as a society, we're much heavier than that.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The last word on the subject is yours if you wish it - Steve, out.

-S-

 

[Dayz]

No. The way I look at it, it's not. We haven't evolved to have a larger weight-to-height ratio in the 66 years I've been alive. We're a little taller and therefore can and should be proportionally heavier, but as a society, we're much heavier than that.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The last word on the subject is yours if you wish it - Steve, out.

-S-

Only because many of us are obese. A lean 68kg person is small compared to a lean 90kg person. 68kg is very small compared to 90, that's all I'm saying. The latter will also be stronger ?

 

[Steve A]

Gary, I think Boris nailed it. Do the 3 PLs (all of them) and make that your priority. Maybe read this article Absolute Strength Is the True Master Quality | StrongFirst and take note of the Ellen story.

You've got ambitious long term goals across the board. The challenge of not bouncing between goals is not trivial. Good luck!

 

[Antti]

Only because many of us are obese. A lean 68kg person is small compared to a lean 90kg person. 68kg is very small compared to 90, that's all I'm saying. The latter will also be stronger ?

Like you said, the weight categories really tell the story.

If one of the big goals is good powerlifts, it only makes sense to use the powerlifting weight classes in this context.

There are eight weight classes from below 59kg to 120+. And by average the competitive lifters are still all relatively short, regardless of weight class.

Everyone is free to weight what they want. But don't be surprised if you start getting heavier as you get better in the powerlifts.

 

[Gary Logue]

Thanks all for your feedback, I’ve definitely got what I was looking for from this thread but would like to dig a little deeper on the plan going forward.

I’ve outlined a plan for my PL goals, this will be my focus until achieved, these will tweak and change of course as I hit plateau, life happens etc but it’s something to focus on.

1. Starting Strength - I’m curious to see if I can still benefit from novice gains.
2. Wendler 531 - Stick with this until PL goals are achieved. Accessory lifts will be focused on the beast tamer skills but light, I’ll keep an eye on any potential injury here.

QUESTION -

I’m happy to stick with the above until PL goals are reached but I will need to bulk/cut from a diet perspective as I don’t want an unhealthy amount of fat %. I could continue on Wendler 531 the entire time and introduce swings into my accessories to assist fat burning. I like the idea of switching to ROP but would rather focus on PL until I get to the long terms goals.

Any ideas on the length of bulk/cut cycles? I’m thinking 2 cycles of 531 on a bulk then 1 cycle on a cut. Will I lose strength during that cut period or just not experience the same gains? Would I actually be better going off feel, running 531 on a bulk until I feel I’m getting ‘fat’ then run a cut cycle until I feel ready to start bulking again? Last option would be to run 531 bulk until I feel ready to cut then run the cut cycle on ROP (could use 1 variety day for PL, 4 days max for training for me)?

 

[Anna C]

1. Starting Strength - I’m curious to see if I can still benefit from novice gains.

I did this for about 13 weeks when I was already moderately strong (had just passed SFL before I did it) and it definitely made me stronger. I did it again when recovering from surgery and it got me back to strong quite well. So I think it can be a good choice but it matters quite a lot how you do it.... i.e. how closely you follow the program as written, how you pick your starting weights, how you advance the weight from one session to the next, how you handle misses/fails/bad days, whether you incorporate power cleans and chin-ups, whether you also do some type of cardio, whether you add anything besides that (not recommended)... If you have any questions I can help with I'd be happy to give you my thoughts. I haven't coached many people through the full LP but have been to the SS Seminar and have some practice coaching the lifts as they do. I think the overhead press every other session will be great for your goal of pressing the Beast!

Any ideas on the length of bulk/cut cycles?

I would recommend keeping your weight as steady as possible, just slowly increasing with a slight caloric surplus (maybe 500 kcal/day) as you build strength, keeping a close eye on your total protein (1.6g-2.0/kg/bodyweight/day). But I'm no dietary expert so take that FWIW, free forum advice.