Kettlebell Productive Path to Long Term Goals

[Dayz]

I think you should just follow a powerlifting program and get as strong and big/ heavy as possible. Simply getting as strong as hell with a barbell through incremental loading will get you closer to the majority of your goals. Use kettlebell press, pistols and chins as minor assistance to SQ BP DL and take a powerbuilding approach, you could use something like wendler 531.

Then switch to conditioning/A+A type programming to hit the Snatch goals. Snatching the 32 will be a lot easier when it weighs around 1/3 of bodyweight vs almost 1/2....

 

[Gary Logue]

Taken from the @Pavel Macek article on Solid S&S he mentions

“ I pulled close to 2.5 times my bodyweight in the deadlift without having trained the deadlift, pressed half my bodyweight without pressing, hit a bent press personal record without bent pressing, owned a snatch test without snatching, and kept reasonable strength in many other exercises that I did not practice at all.”

Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst

Thoughts, tips, and tricks from my training through the space in-between Simple and Sinister. Aspects of S&S are often overlooked that are key to progress.

www.strongfirst.com

Based on his experience it would definitely appear that S&S has a serious impact on the vast majority of my long term goals.

 

[Pete L]

Taken from the @Pavel Macek article on Solid S&S he mentions

“ I pulled close to 2.5 times my bodyweight in the deadlift without having trained the deadlift, pressed half my bodyweight without pressing, hit a bent press personal record without bent pressing, owned a snatch test without snatching, and kept reasonable strength in many other exercises that I did not practice at all.”

Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst

Thoughts, tips, and tricks from my training through the space in-between Simple and Sinister. Aspects of S&S are often overlooked that are key to progress.

www.strongfirst.com

Based on his experience it would definitely appear that S&S has a serious impact on the vast majority of my long term goals.

Yes, but if you read his training log he actually did a lot outside of S&S. Plus, these results are below your targets.

 

[Gary Logue]

Yes, but if you read his training log he actually did a lot outside of S&S. Plus, these results are below your targets.

Hi Pete, agreed but they offer good results in the other lifts without training them at the time according to the article.

Would this give an argument more in favour of running S&S before say PTTP for influence on other skills is what I’m thinking.

 

[Dayz]

Taken from the @Pavel Macek article on Solid S&S he mentions

“ I pulled close to 2.5 times my bodyweight in the deadlift without having trained the deadlift, pressed half my bodyweight without pressing, hit a bent press personal record without bent pressing, owned a snatch test without snatching, and kept reasonable strength in many other exercises that I did not practice at all.”

Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst

Thoughts, tips, and tricks from my training through the space in-between Simple and Sinister. Aspects of S&S are often overlooked that are key to progress.

www.strongfirst.com

Based on his experience it would definitely appear that S&S has a serious impact on the vast majority of my long term goals.

I'm not sure his results are typical though. He's also very very light which i think makes a big difference to relative strength measures with minimal training.

I think the cross over would go more the other way. I don't think many people will Squat 160kg and Deadlift 200kg from S&S alone. But those that can do the aforementioned should be able to hit the Sinister goal with relatively little time investment (by comparison to trying to do it the other way around).

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Some of your goals are complimentary. Some will just distract you. You have a long ways to go on those squat, bench, and deadlift numbers - start w. those and work on kettlebells when you're "off season" and/or needing a break from the grind of attaining those numbers.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Taken from the @Pavel Macek article on Solid S&S he mentions

“ I pulled close to 2.5 times my bodyweight in the deadlift without having trained the deadlift, pressed half my bodyweight without pressing, hit a bent press personal record without bent pressing, owned a snatch test without snatching, and kept reasonable strength in many other exercises that I did not practice at all.”

Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst

Thoughts, tips, and tricks from my training through the space in-between Simple and Sinister. Aspects of S&S are often overlooked that are key to progress.

www.strongfirst.com

Based on his experience it would definitely appear that S&S has a serious impact on the vast majority of my long term goals.

I've said this (or something to the same effect) many times before - the "what the hell effect" is great, but NO WAY I'd be counting on it to reach my goals. I mean, who does that? I heard sudoku helps you develop math skills too, but I wouldn't be counting on it to improve math scores. Does it help? Probably. Is it what I need? No.

 

[Antti]

Taken from the @Pavel Macek article on Solid S&S he mentions

“ I pulled close to 2.5 times my bodyweight in the deadlift without having trained the deadlift, pressed half my bodyweight without pressing, hit a bent press personal record without bent pressing, owned a snatch test without snatching, and kept reasonable strength in many other exercises that I did not practice at all.”

Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst

Thoughts, tips, and tricks from my training through the space in-between Simple and Sinister. Aspects of S&S are often overlooked that are key to progress.

www.strongfirst.com

Based on his experience it would definitely appear that S&S has a serious impact on the vast majority of my long term goals.

Please keep in mind that for example the deadlift, he had already done 2,5*bodyweight. He maintained the deadlift strength without training the deadlift specifically.

The carryover from other exercises is, of course, real. I have improved big lifts with relatively decent levels without training them specifically for long, long periods. Still, I wouldn't get too carried away with it, and I would always expect to have to develop a base of proficiency in every lift I'm interested in.

 

[Pavel Macek]

Yes, but if you read his training log he actually did a lot outside of S&S. Plus, these results are below your targets.

Actually no, I didn't - just S&S and combat arts. S&S is a great general physical prep program, with excellent transfer to many other physical activities.

 

[Antti]

Actually no, I didn't - just S&S and combat arts. S&S is a great general physical prep program, with excellent transfer to many other physical activities.

Pavel, in your experience, how much do the combat arts carry over to other physical activities? Strength?

 

[Pete L]

Actually no, I didn't - just S&S and combat arts. S&S is a great general physical prep program, with excellent transfer to many other physical activities.

@Pavel Macek - Apologies, I thought you had included some practice days of basic kettlebell skills associated with your SFG leadership. Perhaps I have the time line wrong.

 

[Pavel Macek]

Pavel, in your experience, how much do the combat arts carry over to other physical activities? Strength?

I am a long time fan of various combat arts - traditional styles (hard, soft), MMA, reality-based self-defense. Recommended!

 

[Pavel Macek]

@Pavel Macek - Apologies, I thought you had included some practice days of basic kettlebell skills associated with your SFG leadership. Perhaps I have the time line wrong.

Just very easy and light review of other skills - not heavier than 24 kg kettlebells.

 

[Gary Logue]

I think you should just follow a powerlifting program and get as strong and big/ heavy as possible. Simply getting as strong as hell with a barbell through incremental loading will get you closer to the majority of your goals. Use kettlebell press, pistols and chins as minor assistance to SQ BP DL and take a powerbuilding approach, you could use something like wendler 531.

Then switch to conditioning/A+A type programming to hit the Snatch goals. Snatching the 32 will be a lot easier when it weighs around 1/3 of bodyweight vs almost 1/2....

@Dayz thanks for the tips. I don’t mind sticking on some weight but I’d be conscious of remaining functional.

Without trying to take this discussion in a completely new direction. Is a calorie surplus the only way to really add on this kind of strength or will it just bring it around quicker? Also if I went down this route I’d have to cut at some stage (I’m not too worried about looks but also don’t want to be a fat f**k long term), when cutting would I lose strength?

Faleevs 5x5 could be a good option here do you think? Would you not suggest PTTP as it doesn’t cover the big 3 at one time?

 

[Boris Bachmann]

@Dayz thanks for the tips. I don’t mind sticking on some weight but I’d be conscious of remaining functional.

Without trying to take this discussion in a completely new direction. Is a calorie surplus the only way to really add on this kind of strength or will it just bring it around quicker? Also if I went down this route I’d have to cut at some stage (I’m not too worried about looks but also don’t want to be a fat f**k long term), when cutting would I lose strength?

Faleevs 5x5 could be a good option here do you think? Would you not suggest PTTP as it doesn’t cover the big 3 at one time?

If your goals include a 3xbdwt squat and deadlift, and a 2xbdwt bench, then adding bodyweight is going to make it that much harder to attain them (unless you are seriously underweight to begin with). Just another 2 cents from me.

 

[Gary Logue]

If your goals include a 3xbdwt squat and deadlift, and a 2xbdwt bench, then adding bodyweight is going to make it that much harder to attain them (unless you are seriously underweight to begin with). Just another 2 cents from me.

@Boris Bachmann thanks and yeah I considered this today. I’m currently 77kg at 169cm in height so most definitely not underweight. I don’t mind tweaking my long terms goals to a 227.5kg DL & Squat and a 150kg bench as if I’m gaining more weight I don’t want that “beacon” to keep moving!

 

[marvinthemartian]

Without trying to take this discussion in a completely new direction. Is a calorie surplus the only way to really add on this kind of strength or will it just bring it around quicker? Also if I went down this route I’d have to cut at some stage (I’m not too worried about looks but also don’t want to be a fat f**k long term), when cutting would I lose strength?

Faleevs 5x5 could be a good option here do you think? Would you not suggest PTTP as it doesn’t cover the big 3 at one time?

Given that you also want to meet some ambitious strength endurance standards with the 10 minute snatch test you could switch to RoP for cutting. I imagine no matter what barbell program you choose, once you can hit a +150kg bench press and a +225kg deadlift/squat you will have enough strength to manipulating the 48kg KB with minimal dedicated practice. Some people on this forum have mentioned that there is good carryover from the KB press to the TGU. So you could probably cover that lift with minimal practice.

One of Pavel's base programs from Beyond Bodybuilding you could check out is called 3-5 method:
->3-5 lifts
->3-5 sets
->3-5 reps
->3-5 minutes of rest
->do each lift every 3-5 days
->after 3 weeks do a 50% deload week (half reps/half weight)

It could allow you to train most of your lifts at the same time. No idea how well that works. But off the top of my head you could set up a 2 week program like this:

Day 1 (Strength): Squat, Bench, Chin Ups
Day 2: Rest
Day 3 (Strength): KB press, Deadlift
Day 4: Rest
Day 5 (Strength): Squat, Bench, Chin Ups
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest
Day 1 (Strength): KB press, Deadlift
Day 2 : Rest
Day 3 (Strength): Squat, Bench, Chin Ups
Day 4 : Rest
Day 5 (Strength): KB press, Deadlift
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest

Or if you can handle KB swings/snatches on your off days even like this.

Day 1 (Strength): Squat, Bench, Chin Ups
Day 2 (Endurance): KB swings/snatches
Day 3 (Strength): KB press, Deadlift
Day 4 (Endurance): KB swings/snatches
Day 5 (Strength): Squat, Bench, Chin Ups
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest
Day 1 (Strength): Squat, Bench, Chin Ups
Day 2 (Endurance): KB swings/snatches
Day 3 (Strength): KB press, Deadlift
Day 4 (Endurance): KB swings/snatches
Day 5 (Strength): Squat, Bench, Chin Ups
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest

 

[Boris Bachmann]

@Boris Bachmann thanks and yeah I considered this today. I’m currently 77kg at 169cm in height so most definitely not underweight. I don’t mind tweaking my long terms goals to a 227.5kg DL & Squat and a 150kg bench as if I’m gaining more weight I don’t want that “beacon” to keep moving!

I misspoke a little I guess. Adding weight absolutely WILL improve leverages in the squat and bench press (and might in the deadlift but less so), but that may or may not translate to a better squat and benchpress coefficient. There is certainly a sweet spot and that can vary from lifter to lifter.
Anywho, all of this is just talk. I really believe that you need to focus on the big three and a lot of your other goals will be easier to attain by doing so, and that the inverse is not true - focusing on SSST, TGU, S&S, pressing the beast, etc will NOT make it easier to attain your big three goals.

 

[Anders]

Maybe you can look at the logs of and ask people who have achieved your goals, or have almost completed all of your goals.
They have maybe not completely achieved your goals, but come close are the people who are called StrongFirst Elite. They have achieved all the requirements for kettlebells, barbells and bodyweight of StrongFirst. You could ask them.
You also have the Tactical strength challenge where people compete in pull-ups, deadlift and snatch. Maybe you could ask them what they did, and what they think is the best way to achieve all of your goals.

 

[Dayz]

@Dayz thanks for the tips. I don’t mind sticking on some weight but I’d be conscious of remaining functional.

Without trying to take this discussion in a completely new direction. Is a calorie surplus the only way to really add on this kind of strength or will it just bring it around quicker? Also if I went down this route I’d have to cut at some stage (I’m not too worried about looks but also don’t want to be a fat f**k long term), when cutting would I lose strength?

Faleevs 5x5 could be a good option here do you think? Would you not suggest PTTP as it doesn’t cover the big 3 at one time?

It just depends on your training history. If you've been training for a long time, you'll definitely need a caloric surplus to gain appreciable strength. Especially the amount youre hoping to gain. Bulking and then cutting while maintaining strength is a far far quicker route to improving relative strength measures.

IMHO you would need to practice all three lifts to get there