all posts post new thread

Programming help long post

Luis T. Gonzalez said:
@jmmiller41385 yeah that sounds right. I’m just lazy so I don’t typically try to push that many reps in a single session.

The Giant 3.0 is more strength based and calls to use your 5rm for the cl and press so naturally the amount of sets I could get in for the times stated in the program were not going to be super high. I remember Geoff Neupert making a post about how he felt was the best way to approach the program was to do:

Week 1: light
Week 2: medium so try to get a couple more sets than the previous week
Week 3: hard
Week 4: deload

Are you competing in jiu jitsu?
Click to expand...
I did a tournament in August of last year. The original plan was to do one about twice a year. That fell through life happened. I still have a voucher for a tournament that I plan on taking advantage of but not sure past that. I am going to revisit my BJJ participation after the first of the year. I have some commitments that end at the end of the year and should have some more time.....in theory.
 


The first video was my second set all the way through. The video above is my second to last set. I wore weightlifting shoes. Thought they helped with the squats.The picture is my whiteboard of final rep tally and time. Thanks for taking a look and any feedback.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0507.jpeg
    IMG_0507.jpeg
    158.7 KB · Views: 8
What's good..

You aren't doing anything alarming that is an accident waiting to happen so now we can work on making it better..

I'd like you to "zip up" when you clean the bells, pause for a split second then press..

Same with the squat, pause a split second at the bottom..

Now I re-read your original post, you can finish up maximorum then retest your clean and press max then go from there..

What I would do is probably schedule a session either in person or virtual with an instructor just to touch up your form further so you minimize any strength being left on the table..

Appreciate you posting your vids.. hope I was able to be helpful
 
Spot on from @Mark Limbaga as always. @jmmiller41385 Your progress is great and you have good programming questions, I know you'll go far! You're getting all the work and conditioning out your kettlebell training and you have good questions and thoughts on programming. But you'll be amazed at how much more you can get out of training in terms of strength, power, movement quality, "rebuilding the chassis" as my original coach @Al Ciampa calls it with some focus on technique.

Check out how beneficial one member found it to be to have some online sessions: Kettlebell - Progression/Appreciation Post
 
John K said:
You seem to be counting fine. Did you do a test with 24s prior to running the program? Or after? And I want to be clear I’m not saying your high numbers are bad, just that I would encourage someone with such high numbers to test the next bell up if possible. Some folks just seem to get a ton of reps per session, and some get a lot less, so its not really a comparison.

Awesome job! Also if you’re going to run Giant next, you can always run giant single bell - IF you want to run 3.0 (5RM) with a heavier bell.

Ok great, equipment definitely doesn’t seem to be a limiting factor. Some folks (me in the past) have bells in one place and barbells another and putting together a program with both can be tricky.

I love 5/3/1, but my understanding from you post is you wanted to do Giant (3 days a week of clean and press) and then supplement it with deadlifts and barbell overhead presses following the 5/3/1 template. I don't think that would work with the presses - too much pressing. You could (I wouldn't necessarily suggest it) do Giant 2x a week and press 5/3/1 1x a week, but if you're going to be adding pressing you're going to take some pressing out somewhere else.

Adding squats and deadlifts to Giant is a lot more straightforward, as it becomes more about time available, fatigue management, deciding what is your priority, and learning how to do enough of the "extra" work without taking away from the main work.

To be honest, this is less about learning how to use kettlebells and more about "program smashing." We can totally cook up a program that does kettlebell clean and presses + barbell work (including barbell pressing), and we can use the autoregulated density style training of Giant with the 5/3/1 of barbells, but I think I would cap pressing days to 3x a week, so it would look more like ...

Giant Session 1Giant Session 25/3/1 Press Session
Giant Session 3Giant Session 15/3/1 Press Session
Giant Session 2Giant Session 35/3/1 Press Session

This means one block of Giant would take 6 weeks. You could obviously shuffle sessions around in a week, but the gist stays the same. Then for adding squats/deadlifts it has more to do with time available and desired frequency (both how many total sessions per week, how many times you want to squat/deadlift per week, and whether due to time/energy the squat/deadlift sessions need to be separate form your Giant/Pressing sessions or if they can done "on top of" the existing framework.


Always happy to help. :) Hopefully I'm understanding your goals/desires and am being clear.
Click to expand...
So I am trying to figure out a couple of pieces of the puzzle. I am likely going to do the Kettlebell work in the mornings prior to going to work. Then do the barbell work in the evenings when I get home. I am thinking that two of these types of sessions is probably more appropriate. Given what you are saying I am thinking I am probably getting enough overhead pressing with the Giant and would likely just leave the presses out of the 5/3/1 setup and just add in squats and deadlifts. A week would probably look something like this. Also to consider is that I will likely do the Giant for 20 minute sessions. I was thinking about amping this up, but I think adding in the barbell work will be enough to start with.

Monday - Giant Session 1 AM 5/3/1 Squat PM
Tuesday - OFF
Wednesday Giant Session 2 AM
Thursday -OFF
Friday Giant Session 3 AM 5/3/1 Deadlift PM
Saturday - OFF (possible Jiu Jitsu Open Mat)
Sunday - OFF

Also to consider is that I will likely do the Giant for 20 minute sessions. I was thinking about amping this up, but I think adding in the barbell work will be enough to start with.
 
When I ran Giant I ran my squat days on my days off from Giant and it worked pretty well for me. (Giant three days per week and squatting two-three days per week) I’m surprised you have appetite for deadlifts with Giant, my hinge pattern and upper back would get fairly torched from Giant. Also anecdotally my deadlift did fine with just Giant, I got back to my lifetime PR (385) with just C&P and squat after not deadlifting for 15 months

If your body can handle the volume, god bless and soldier on! But you won’t know until you try.
 
jmmiller41385 said:
So I am trying to figure out a couple of pieces of the puzzle. I am likely going to do the Kettlebell work in the mornings prior to going to work. Then do the barbell work in the evenings when I get home. I am thinking that two of these types of sessions is probably more appropriate. Given what you are saying I am thinking I am probably getting enough overhead pressing with the Giant and would likely just leave the presses out of the 5/3/1 setup and just add in squats and deadlifts. A week would probably look something like this. Also to consider is that I will likely do the Giant for 20 minute sessions. I was thinking about amping this up, but I think adding in the barbell work will be enough to start with.

Monday - Giant Session 1 AM 5/3/1 Squat PM
Tuesday - OFF
Wednesday Giant Session 2 AM
Thursday -OFF
Friday Giant Session 3 AM 5/3/1 Deadlift PM
Saturday - OFF (possible Jiu Jitsu Open Mat)
Sunday - OFF

Also to consider is that I will likely do the Giant for 20 minute sessions. I was thinking about amping this up, but I think adding in the barbell work will be enough to start with.
Click to expand...
Yup, I think that’ll work well enough. Do it for a cycle or two and let us know how it went!
 
Ya know I think there is a point in time where I need to just run it and see what happens. I really appreciate you all helping me process through it! I think I have been on a kick where my sole focus has been to complete a program. I don't think I have been in a place of progressive monitoring as the program goes on so I think that will be the next step. I have another week of finishing up Kettlebell Max and then I will start the above process. Thank you all so much.
 
Here is the update. I retested with double 53 pound clean and press at the end of Kettlebell Max yesterday. I was able to get 21 reps which I was pretty stoked about. Not sure where I stood with double 53s to start the program but I treated them as a 5 rep max. I was shooting for 15 when I started the set. I felt like I had some more in the tank but I didn't want to push it. I am a school teacher, and I have a 5 day break after tomorrow. During that break I plan to do some max work on Deadlift and squats. Will update when I get that completed. I am in the process of getting a second 32 kilo kb. Once I do that I may take those for a ride to see how many reps I can bang out with those prior to starting the Giant again. Thanks for everyone's input.
 
Well i figured I would post an update and solicit some advice. In my infinite wisdom (note the sarcasm) I decided to start the Giant at 3.0 with double 32s. I started in the first week of December. I was excited to use my double 32s. I didn't take very much time off from the end of Kettlebell Max. I tested my rep max on double 53s and got 20+. I tested double 32s and got 8 so I figured I was good to go. While I was rep testing I started a 5/3/1 cycle for Squat and Deadlift. I used double 32s for two of the three workouts the first week and noted some discomfort in what I now know is my SI joint in my lower back. SO in order to finish the first week I dialed it back to the double 24s and did the sets of 4. I continued doing the 5/3/1 cycle with the added in kettlebell work. The pain was at this point discomfort and soreness. I figured it was normal soreness. After Kettlebell Max I was use to being sore so I in my infinite wisdom ignored it. I did some cold water immersion and made an appointment with a local chiropractor. The chiropractor helped tremendously my hips were very very tight as were my glutes. Chiro resolved this and have been going consistently since. I restarted the Giant 1.0 with double 53s and I did this for 5 total workouts looking back at my records starting on December 10th through December 20th. I continued the 5/3/1 as well.

Somewhere in there I determined that I had from my perspective a crazy imbalance from side to side and my ability to move was restricted to a point that I was not comfortable with. I had been squatting and deadlifting and swinging kettlebells and felt pretty good minus my back being sore. I had observed some anterior pelvic tilt while squatting with with weightlifting shoes. All these observations led to my decision to do something different. I decided I needed to do something to help with this imbalance, so why not switch to singled handed swings (again more sarcasm, still not sure this was the right decision, feel free to weigh in). So I started Swing Hard. I took a look at this program and started with 1 handed swings on Swing Hard 5.0, just trying to get a vibe on how much work I could pull off because I got in a place of not wanting to lose my conditioning. The first workout I did with a 16 and was extremely easy. So I was in a place of wanting to figure out how to effectively work out my imbalance and get some conditioning. Fast forward to December 28th, I got into doing Swing Hard 1.0 and determined I would use a single 24.,sets of 5 every minute on the minute. I got about 8 sets deep and doing a set on my right hand I tweaked something in my back. Instead of stopping there I picked up the 16 and finished out the workout. This was brilliant, obviously. I spent the next few days sitting on a heating pad, fortunately it was Christmas break so I was able to take time to rest. The pain did not radiate it stayed concentrated in and around my QL on my right side. I got into the Chiropractor after about a week and he determined as best he could that it did not seem to be a disc but that I strained my SI joint. I have been twice since and everything feels fine.

I have not exercised very much but have done a decent bit of reading trying to figure out a path back. Here is where I will solicit some advice. Turns out one handed swings may not have been the best bet for helping with imbalance. I purchased the book rebuilding MILO and have been working with some Ready State Materials and I am trying to piece together a personal mobility and core stability routine to augment any kettlebell and barbell work in the future. I have made an appointment with a PT and I am going to do whatever they say as my left hip is wonky and has been for over a year. In an effort to not continue on in injury I am going to try and build back an effective foundation and reload from there. As per usual, turns out unless you deal with your issues they come back. I have done some reading about my squat form and I think I have always thought that my anterior pelvic tilt was due to tight hips, but I purchased an inexpensive set of squat wedges and have determined it may actually be ridiculously tight ankles.

So breakthroughs are coming slowing with regard to technique refining. I am going to hold off doing any kind of heavy swings prior to my PT appointment. I may do a light Giant with 16s exceedingly slow in order to contrate on perfect technique just to see how that feels. Not doing anything at all is starting to drive me nuts. Here is where I will solicit advice, what kinds of programming, exercises do you all suggest for core stability and strength. I have read about suitcase carries, the McGill Big 3. There is a ton of content on the good old internet and not a lot that is reputable. Any suggestions are appreciated. I am glad to have a like minded community to bounce ideas off of in order to talk to be prepared to talk to medical practitioners in an educated way.
 
jmmiller41385 said:
Here is where I will solicit advice, what kinds of programming, exercises do you all suggest for core stability and strength.
Click to expand...
Honestly sounds like you tend to go too hard. I'd probably start out with something super basic for a bit and focus on ankle and hip mobility.
5/3 goblet squats,
Pushups 10/3
planks x3-5
10/3 cossack squats bw supported by a door frame or something. Think mobility rather than trying to load it up.
knees over toes lunges keeping the heel planted. Start with the front foot on a box and slowly lower elevation until you build up the ankle mobility.
kb deadlift 10/3 focusing hard on hinging perfectly.

Do that in a circuit for a month or two 3-5x a week. Do some kb armbars , halos, and hip flexor stretches in your warmup as well.
 
I like it. Might sub in some back extensions, reverse hypers in there instead of the kettlebell deadlift. Never thought about just stringing the exercises together in a circuit keeping it simple. Maybe overhead presses instead of pushups? You called it correctly I tend to go to hard feel free to tell me thats dumb.
 
jmmiller41385 said:
I like it. Might sub in some back extensions, reverse hypers in there instead of the kettlebell deadlift. Never thought about just stringing the exercises together in a circuit keeping it simple. Maybe overhead presses instead of pushups? You called it correctly I tend to go to hard feel free to tell me thats dumb.
Click to expand...
Whenever I catch myself mentally saying "alright one more set or just a few more," I know I'm starting to go into red lining my body and that is a stop sign for me. Ironically, doing that over time, I have way more capacity than I did before. I'd like to believe it is better for my overall health to train that way.
 
Thought I would throw my hat in the ring to give some advice...

I went back and re-read your original post from November. Don't forget about what your stated goal was, supplementing your BJJ training. I'm a black belt, masters competitor, with 15 years experience. A common fault I see, especially with newer athletes (I have no idea how long you've been training in particular), is that they think stronger is always better. While in general terms, adding strength is great, not at the expense of tearing your body apart and not being able to train your original sport. At 265, you're definitely in the highest weight classes for any competition, and strength will certainly not be a limiting factor. Knowledge and technique on the mat is where to train your attention and intention.

For most recreational athletes, I typically suggest a "first responder- type" program. Meaning that you plan your S&C training in such a way that you are always fresh and in great condition to get your training in on the mat. Usually, this means focusing on longer-term strength gains and resistance to injury. Trying to stay healthy on the mats, in order to stay on the mats longer. It's what led me to Pavel's teachings and StrongFirst. Because of this, I am a huge fan of Justin's "Novocaine" protocol. It's a great mix of different protocols, with the flexibility to move it around a changing training and competition schedule. Just try to get 3 blocks in a week. I've had great success with it.

All-Around Training for the Tactical Athlete | StrongFirst

Also, like Pavel talks about in his SF for BJJ program, careful with all the pressing work. As jiujitsu athletes, our shoulders take a huge beating on a day to day basis. I tend to concentrate on jerks or snatches for overhead work and tgus for shoulder strength and mobility.
 
I've been rolling Jiu Jitsu for almost two years in March. Went about twice a week the first year, and the second year I got roped into taking classes for my administration license (I am a school teacher by trade). I also got involved with coaching track and wrestling. All of which took time away from the mats during the second year. At this point I am rolling about twice a month. What I love about the Neupert stuff was that it kept my conditioning in a place to keep up even though I wasn't able to roll as much as I like. Wrestling season ends the beginning of February and my coaching career along with it. I have small children and need my time elsewhere. I am hoping to get in two nights a week rolling again after that.

Thanks for the advice about considering my why for S&C. At this point taking into consideration my current predicament trying to build back a solid foundation is my main goal for what I am doing. This will look vastly different than just hammering away at Neupert programs, though I absolutely love to be gassed the way they do. I am going to agree whole heartedly that I need to consider that the general over stimulus I am giving myself is more detrimental than beneficial. I had not considered first responder type workouts in an effort to reach the always fresh goal. This is a great point.

I worked out last night and considering what was mentioned above since I last posted I did over do it a bit, but did not hurt my back so I was pretty excited about that. I have attached a picture of my whiteboard from last night that has the exercises and sets I followed. I enjoyed the various exercises I included, decent change of pace from kb cleans and presses. I probably need to tone down the amount of sets. I included my overhead press bit in there as well. My upper body feels good. My legs are fried a bit from the front squats.

Thank you all for the advice. I think moving forward I am going to explore some of the first responder type programs and design something of that nature with some elements of strongman sprinkled in. Its occured to me that a lot of those movements have transfer to grappling as well as overall strength. Is there a space on the forum where I should post workouts rather than continuing this thread?
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0987.jpg
    IMG_0987.jpg
    151.4 KB · Views: 5
BJJGator said:
All-Around Training for the Tactical Athlete | StrongFirst

Also, like Pavel talks about in his SF for BJJ program, careful with all the pressing work. As jiujitsu athletes, our shoulders take a huge beating on a day to day basis. I tend to concentrate on jerks or snatches for overhead work and tgus for shoulder strength and mobility.
Click to expand...
Just got around to reading this article and strangely it sounds very familiar to what I am trying to achieve. The only thing I am not tracking with is the A+A? I have the quick and the dead and was able to read the methodology for the pushups and swings. I am not sure I am tracking on what I am supposed to do on the A+A days. I did a brief search and ended up on an explanation of what it is relative to energy systems. What protocol do I need to follow? He mentions in the article the 75 seconds, what are the sets and reps? 75 seconds is evidently the amount of time between sets? Thanks for the help!
 
I'm definitely not an expert on this, and I'd defer to others on the forum who are, but A+A stands for alactic plus aerobic (or Alactic Effort and Aerobic Recovery). The cliff notes version is to essential structure your work in such a way that you can always pass the "talk test" between sets. This allows for those systems in your body to function optimally and not burn glycogen during your training. Again, I'm not an expert. A great article is this one:

The Best All-Around Training Method EVER | StrongFirst

This is very similar to the KB for BJJ program that StrongFirst released. It builds up your sets and reps of a C&J (known as a "longcycle" in StrongFirst lingo- another thing you could search) while keeping your HR rate down, always passing the "talk test". Again, the C&J saves your shoulders for BJJ. The program is written, I believe, for 2x per week, but I do the one session as part of Novocaine. I did that block with the C&J, but recently have started snatching instead. Sets of 5, at the 1:15 intervals that Justin talks about in the article. Still feels like it protects my shoulder.

The weight, sets and reps are personal, as long as you can pass the talk test, but in general it's 5 snatches on the top of the interval. So, start the timer, 5 snatches right handed, then when the next interval starts, 5 snatches left handed, and so on. Go for 20-30 rounds. The C&J protocol is slightly different, but it explains it in the article above.

Hopefully some of this made sense!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom