Nutrition Protein Pulsing and Pulse Feeding

[Kenny Croxdale]

This is interesting stuff. I've sent you some research on it

Protein Pulsing

This has to do the Refractory Period in Muscle Protein Synthesis.

The Refractory Period meal timing is similar to a sponge.

When the sponge is dry it soaks up more water.

When the sponge is wet, very little water is soaked up.

The sponge needs to be allowed to dry out before it can optimally absorb the greatest amount of water. This is The Refractory Period that ensures that the maximal amount of water is absored.

The Refractory Time Period requied for optimal Muscle Protein Synthesis for the anabolic process occurs the same way.

The Muscle Protein Synthesis Refractory Period

Research (Drs. Layne Norton and Gabe Wilson, Nutrition PhDs) demonstrated that The Refractory Period for Maximal Muslce Protein Synthesis after a meal is between 4-6 hours. When a meals are consumed in that time period, Muscle Protein Synthesis is Maximized (greater muscle building takes place).

The Bodybuilding Eat Protein Every Three Hours

This method has no scientific foundation. The research demonstrated that consuming a protein meals every three hours amounts to trying to wipe of water with a sponge that is still fairly wet.

Thus, the Eat Protein Every Three Hours limits the optimum Muscle Protein Synthesis, anabolic process.

Increasing Muscle Protein Synthesis Between Meals

Based on Dr. Layne Norton's hypothesis, Muscle Protein Synthesis may be spiked between high protein meals with BCAA's or Leucine alone. BCAAs or Leucine enters the system and exit it quickly. It spikes mTOR, the anabolic trigger.

As per Norton, around two hour after a high protein meal and about two hour prior to the next high protein meal, BCAA's or Leucine appear trigger mTOR.

A few articles have recommended, Protein Pulsing around 4 hour after a high protein meal "Catches the Muscle Protein Synthesis Wave" at the right time; "Timing is everything".

The articles recommended taking a the quickly digested whole Whey Protein. Whey is considered as the "Anabolic Protein", due to the fact that it enters the system and exits the system so quickly.

Hydrolyzed Whey enters the system the fastest; in approximately 20 minutes. That because it is composed of di and tri peptides that are absorbed quickly.

The problems with Hydrolyzed Whey is that it taste like crap and the cost.

Pulse Feeding

Reseach shows Muscle Protein Syntheis for older individual is more effective with this method. Up to 70% of daily protein intake is consumed in a meal.

Older individuals system are not as efficient as younger individuals. Thus, for older individual to obtain a similar Muscle Protein Synthesis effect, the amount of protein per meal is greater.

Human study: protein pulse gives anabolic stimulus

The test subjects in the Université Paris-Descartes experiment didn't train with weights, they didn't take supplements or illegal anabolic substances, and they didn't eat much protein either – yet they built up more muscle mass. All they did was to consume seventy percent of their daily protein...

www.ergo-log.com

This is a good article on Pulse Feeding.

The test subjects in the Université Paris-Descartes experiment didn't train with weights, they didn't take supplements or illegal anabolic substances, and they didn't eat much protein either – yet they built up more muscle mass. All they did was to consume seventy percent of their daily protein allowance during one meal. Protein pulse diets have an anabolic effect.

Two Meals A Day

That is what I am doing. That based on...

1) Breakfast

After having a breakfast of 1,000 to 1,400 kcal; 55 to 70 grams of Protein and 90-100 gram of Fat, I am not hungry for lunch. Duh!

2) Pulse Feeding

Since I am in the older category, it makes sense to have less frequent high protein meals.

Since I am on Keto, that means my Fat intake is high as well. My Fat intake for a meal is usually 70% of my Macros. Protein is around 20% to 25%.

3) Protein Pulsing

Between those two meal, approximately 4 hours after Breakfast and 4 hours before Dinner, I have Leucine.

 

[Antti]

Wouldn't the protein source and how it's cooked etc influence this a lot?

Take a person eating a pound of beef. It takes a lot of time to digest. It also matters how it's cooked; minced being more easily digested, and it shouldn't be left raw either for optimal absorption.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Increasing Muscle Protein Synthesis Between Meals

Based on Dr. Layne Norton's hypothesis, Muscle Protein Synthesis may be spiked between high protein meals with BCAA's or Leucine alone. BCAAs or Leucine enters the system and exit it quickly. It spikes mTOR, the anabolic trigger.

As per Norton, around two hour after a high protein meal and about two hour prior to the next high protein meal, BCAA's or Leucine appear trigger mTOR.

I knew about the 4hr minimum window but did not know a spike of Leucine or BCAAs at the midpoint could also be used.

Any idea the dosing of leucine or BCAAs needed to get a response?

Did a quick search and got several hits for using leucine pulsing in neonatal infants to increase MPS.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Wouldn't the protein source and how it's cooked etc influence this a lot?

The Refractory Period

As with everything, there are recommended Guidlines.

That applies to Percentage of 1RM for Maxium Strength, Power, Speed and Hypertrophy Training.

There are Guidelines for that amount of Recover Hours requied for training muscle groups.

There is a Guideline for the amount of Leucine required to trigger mTOR, etc.

The Guidelines for the Refractory Period between high protein meals is 4 - 6 hours.

 

[ali]

The authors make sweeping conclusions that it was due to pulse feeding.

The conclusion references a +0.38 kg/m (2) in lean mass compared to control group......yet the pulse group ate 0.4 more protein as % of energy. Also ate 0.4 g/kg more in protein.

Uncontrolled variables, it's a problem for nutritional science.

They ate 4 times a day, main protein at noon.

So was it pulse, %protein, time of day...in a population of malnourished elderly people?

Or random fluctuations?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Any idea the dosing of leucine or BCAAs needed to get a response?

mTOR

Reseach by Norton and Layman determined that between 2.5 to 4 plus gram of Leucine is needed to elict mTOR.

1) Younger Individuals

Individual around twenty need 2.5 gram of Leucine.

2) Older Individuals

Individual that are older need more Leucine to elict a similar effect to younger ones.

Older individual need 3.0 of Leucine or higher.

Layne Norton PhD on protein: how much and how often?​

...or some reason protein synthesis is becomes refractory after a certain period of time. This is also supported by data from Bohe et al which showed that the duration of protein synthesis in response to an infusion of essential amino acids was only 2 hours long even though the essential amino acids were infused for six hours5! It is unlikely that eating another meal 2-3 hours after the first meal would be sufficient to induce another rise in protein synthesis since amino acid/leucine levels are already elevated anyway. It may therefore be more useful to consume larger amounts of protein at a meal and wait longer between protein doses than the typical 2-3 hours that is typically recommended in the bodybuilding community.

What I am implying is that it is better to consume larger protein doses spaced further apart and maximize protein synthesis, rather than consume smaller doses of protein throughout the day, since research has shown that protein synthesis will become refractory to constantly elevated levels of amino acids. It may be that a period where amino acids return to baseline or near baseline is required in order to initiate another bout of protein synthesis. I therefore suggest that one consume 4-6 larger protein doses per day instead of 6-8 meals and wait 4-5 hours between meals rather than 2-3 hours.

Amount of Leucine In Proteins

1) Whey: 10%. 25 gram of Whey = about 2.5 gram of Leucine

2) Eggs, Casein, Meats, Cheeses: 8%. 32 gram = about 2.5 gram of Leucine

3) Vegan Protein: Very low in Leucine; Soy and Pea Protein Power are two of he exceptions.

 

[ShawnM]

I've been protein pulsing for a while and it seems to work well. I have a shake in the morning before work that has around 40-50 grams of protein from whey. If I'm doing keto during that time period I'll reduce the protein to 25 grams and add 10-15 grams of fat from coconut oil or heavy cream. I'll have the same shake 4-5 hours later and then my evening meal 4-5 hours after that. Most of my evening meals consist of a salad and 10-20 ounces of meat, depending on my amount of activity that day.
This has seemed to work well for me over the last year or so. The only amount of thought is to remember to make my shakes each evening so I just throw them in my bag for work and off I go.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Amount of Leucine In Proteins

Protein Comparative Chart

The Truth About Protein: How Much And How Often? Written By Layne Norton - SimplyShredded.com

From the time that the first physique enthusiasts & bodybuilders ever started choking down extra chicken breasts, steaks, and vile concoctions to increase their protein intake for the purposes of gaining muscle; the question of just how much protein is optimal has been debated. Fast forward more...

simplyshredded.com

This chart provides comparative information on the various proteins; the amount needed to obtain the right Leucine dosage.



Vegan Proteins

Vegan Foods are low in Protein and Leucine.

Beans and Rice

I once calculate the amount of Beans and Rice necessary to obtain enough Protein, which means to obtain enought Leucine in a meal.

An individual would need to need to consume approximately three (3) cups of Beans and Rice; which is nuts.

 

[ali]

Thing is, leucine on its own as a supplement is horrible stuff.
My daughter bought some vegan leucine to add to her food/shake and gave it to me as she just said it ruined everything. I do have it from time to time if my dietary protein has been low over a few days as I eat less meat these days and to be honest I'd rather chew my shoe.
Interesting though, 3 cups of beans and rice ticks the box. Never knew that.
Easily achieved, really. A bean chilli, rice, sour cream, guacamole, cheese to perk it up. Easily achievable. 3 cups, close to 400g. Yeah, not far off, probably.
Not for breakfast though.

I eat a lot of rice. A piece of fish, pile of rice, loads of veg. Ticks all the boxes.
Never considered rice to be a source of leucine before. I'll double up!

 

[Don Fairbanks]

Relevant info. in recent podcast with Ferris and Attia. BCAA topic comes up at 44:40.

 

[Deleted member 316]

I've been protein pulsing for a while and it seems to work well. I have a shake in the morning before work that has around 40-50 grams of protein from whey. If I'm doing keto during that time period I'll reduce the protein to 25 grams and add 10-15 grams of fat from coconut oil or heavy cream. I'll have the same shake 4-5 hours later and then my evening meal 4-5 hours after that. Most of my evening meals consist of a salad and 10-20 ounces of meat, depending on my amount of activity that day.
This has seemed to work well for me over the last year or so. The only amount of thought is to remember to make my shakes each evening so I just throw them in my bag for work and off I go.

Very reminiscent of Iron Addict. He had three pulses then his meal at night on non training days. Four pulses and an evening meal on training days. Seemed to work for him and the guys following him. Some of the guys were big, so it obviously worked.

 

[Deleted member 316]

Obviously the bigger guys adjusted their protein pulses on the plus side. I think it was 40+ grams or so

 

[silveraw]

The authors make sweeping conclusions that it was due to pulse feeding.

The conclusion references a +0.38 kg/m (2) in lean mass compared to control group......yet the pulse group ate 0.4 more protein as % of energy. Also ate 0.4 g/kg more in protein.

Uncontrolled variables, it's a problem for nutritional science.

They ate 4 times a day, main protein at noon.

So was it pulse, %protein, time of day...in a population of malnourished elderly people?

To be fair to Dr Norton, he puts this kind of meal timing very far down the list of things you need to do to build muscle (he calls it the last 5%) when he puts this into perspective. This jives with what I've read from Dr Isratel and many others in the evidence based fitness community as well (the PHDs who Lift crowd). If you aren't getting adequate protein and are struggling with caloric balance, meal timing is not going to give you any results. But if you have everything major dialed in, you can see some significant results from implementing this.

 

[North Coast Miller]

To be fair to Dr Norton, he puts this kind of meal timing very far down the list of things you need to do to build muscle (he calls it the last 5%) when he puts this into perspective. This jives with what I've read from Dr Isratel and many others in the evidence based fitness community as well (the PHDs who Lift crowd). If you aren't getting adequate protein and are struggling with caloric balance, meal timing is not going to give you any results. But if you have everything major dialed in, you can see some significant results from implementing this.

IDK how dialed in I was, but I definitely credit using a pulse timing with big spikes of protein for a lot of my success. It was really the only thing I did different from other attempts, aside from using a 4 week overfeeding wave of 2-3 on, 1-2 off.

The other factor which is actually contraindicated was to cut volume and eliminate pretty much everything but grind work, very little HIIT, metcons, etc, almost zero cardio.

I did increase intensity of effort and included a few "easy" sets near my 1 repmax.

 

[silveraw]

IDK how dialed in I was, but I definitely credit using a pulse timing with big spikes of protein for a lot of my success. It was really the only thing I did different from other attempts, aside from using a 4 week overfeeding wave of 2-3 on, 1-2 off.

Dr Norton pretty much defines it as

1. treat it like a lifestyle (basically make it so you don't have to think about it that much)
2. have a reasonable idea of how much you can eat and maintain your weight
3. eat between 1.8 - 2.4g of protein per kg bodyweight
4. Figure out what the breakdown of carbs and fat you like.
5. Don't sweat the small stuff (don't change your entire diet everytime you listen to a new podcast)

From what you've posted in the past I kind of get the impression that you have your nutrition pretty dialed in. Else doing a 4 week overfeeding wave followed by 1-2 weeks of maintenance would be near impossible.

 

[silveraw]

Relevant info. in recent podcast with Ferris and Attia. BCAA topic comes up at 44:40.

That is an interesting podcast. Just listened to it.

Off topic, but Dr Attila's observations on short intermittent fasts are pretty interesting. I wouldn't expect it to hurt body composition that much.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

That is an interesting podcast. Just listened to it.

Off topic, but Dr Attila's observations on short intermittent fasts are pretty interesting. I wouldn't expect it to hurt body composition that much.

You're on topic, you can use BCAA's to prevent muscle loss, but this will turn of autophagy. You get to pick. Resistance training during fasts, IF, and time restricted eating also a must.

 

[Deleted member 316]

So which is better, muscle or autophagy for us over forty guys? Can't we just split the difference and pulse feed half the days a week and intermittent feed the other half?

 

[Don Fairbanks]

So which is better, muscle or autophagy for us over forty guys? Can't we just split the difference and pulse feed half the days a week and intermittent feed the other half?

That would be my guess, cycle it

 

[LukeV]

So which is better, muscle or autophagy for us over forty guys? Can't we just split the difference and pulse feed half the days a week and intermittent feed the other half?

If you do the math, an eight hour feeding window provides the scope for three protein feeds (if you accept the lower end of the 4-6 hours outlined in Kenny's post)