Barbell PTTP vs Starting Strength Deadlift

[oukeith1]

The discussion around deadlift technique in the Strong at 55 caught my attention.

I’m wondering what folks might think about the differences in technique and/or intent between the two philosophies.

Starting Strength was the first barbell book I read and I took my deadlift and squat queues from that. While I’ve read PTTP multiple times, it occurred to me that I never paid much attention to Pavel’s instructions on how to perform the lift.

It seems to me like he may advocate for a more upright stance and more leg/quad drive than what I’m trying to do. I very much start the lift with a “pulling” intent.

Here is a video from about a year ago. Any thoughts/advice if I was to align more with a PTTP-style DL?

DL 2023

youtube.com

 

[Torin]

It seems to me like he may advocate for a more upright stance and more leg/quad drive than what I’m trying to do. I very much start the lift with a “pulling” intent.

I'll let someone else recommend changes you can make, but ptp recommends a hinged torso, and you're supposed to pull to start the lift.

 

[Anna C]

The discussion around deadlift technique in the Strong at 55 caught my attention.

I’m wondering what folks might think about the differences in technique and/or intent between the two philosophies.

Starting Strength was the first barbell book I read and I took my deadlift and squat queues from that. While I’ve read PTTP multiple times, it occurred to me that I never paid much attention to Pavel’s instructions on how to perform the lift.

It seems to me like he may advocate for a more upright stance and more leg/quad drive than what I’m trying to do. I very much start the lift with a “pulling” intent.

Here is a video from about a year ago. Any thoughts/advice if I was to align more with a PTTP-style DL?

DL 2023

youtube.com

Having learned both styles from the source (Starting Strength and StrongFirst), I would say your setup is more Starting Strength style than PTTP. HOWEVER I would say your second rep is style-neutral. It's just a good deadlift. I don't think anyone who didn't see your set-up could really tell a difference.

As StrongFirst teaches, the set-up is super important!! (Sometimes StrongFirst likes to say, "the set-up is the first rep", for kettlebells, anyway). But in my opinion, both styles will lead you to being in a good position and tight for that first lift. Two different paths to the same thing. Some may find that the PTTP techniques such as building tension as you reach for the bar are helpful and make you stronger and tighter leading to better overall lift technique. Others may prefer to get set up in a relaxed manner to get in position, then get tight, then lift, as you are. (I do, myself. A few years ago, heaviest set of 5.).

 

[oukeith1]

Thank you both!

@Torin - there was verbiage in the book about pushing the floor away. I definitely do not use that as an intent.

@Anna C - thanks for the feedback. If it’s a good deadlift I may not goof around with form other than look for continuous refinement.

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C - thanks for the feedback. If it’s a good deadlift I may not goof around with form other than look for continuous refinement.

Yes, keep in mind that a LOT of a book or teaching method's instruction is conveying how to do something to someone who may be totally new to it and may be only reading the book and doing it on their own, or being taught by a coach to do it the first time -- and by a follow-able method that can then be conveyed to others in turn. Therefore, specific cues, sequences, and guardrails. But really once you have a solid method that's working for you, as yours is, continuous refinement and practice is all that's needed.

 

[DocMike]

My only comment, coming from a PL background, is that your deadlift is very loose on the video. Once you grip the bar raise your hips a bit, tighten the whole body, and then literally pull yourself down to your position ( which is fine). This takes time to learn correctly but once you do the pull is much, much easier and stronger. I recommend practicing this by doing all deadlifts as a series of singles to practice (lightning deadlifts I believe)

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

ptp recommends a hinged torso, and you're supposed to pull to start the lift.

Different Conventional Deadlift Styles

There are two different Conventional Deadlift Styles

1) Olympic Lift Deadlift Style

The Deadlift is initiated by breaking the weight off the floor by Leg Drive, as some have stated, by pushing the bar away from the floor, In other word Leg Pressing the weight off the floor,.

This Deadlift Method ensures Olympic Lifter to position the bar for the Second Pull,

2) Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift Style

Many Powerlifters initiate breaking the weight off the floor with the back.

The Muscle Firing Sequence in the completing the Powerlifting Coventional Deadlift is: Back.> Legs> Back. (Reseach by Dr Tom McLauglin, PhD Exercise BioMechanics, former Powerlifter).

As per McLaughlin, the Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift Style enable many Powerlifters to "Pull More".

The Muscle Firing Muscle Firing Seqence often is so suttle that most individual don't notice it.

These individuals "Pull to start the lift".

The Bar Is Pulled Toward The Body

This ensure that Bar is pulled close the Body's Center of Gravity, COG.

The closer the Bar is to pulled toward the Body's Center of Gravity, less Torque is produced.

The farther away from the Body Center of Gravity, the greater the Torque; the greater the Bar Load is magnified.

The Squat-Morning Example

Some Lifter turn a Squat into a Good Morning. That occurs due to weaker Quads.

When Quad Drive stops, the work load is shifted to the Erectors to complete the Squat.

In doing so, the Bar Load is magnified due to the fact that greater Tor because of the Bar being farther away from the Body's Center of Gravity.

The Bar Should Stay Close To Your Legs At All Times.

Dragging the Bar Up you shin and thighs does two things...

1) It ensure that the Bar is as close as it can be to your Body's Center of Gravity.

2) Dragging it Up you Legs provides greater Stability. It like performing a movement with a Smith Machine. It takes one of the weak links out of the equation, the Stabiliers.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I recommend practicing this by doing all deadlifts as a series of singles to practice

Technique Training

Techique is optimally developed with Single Rep Training working up to load of 85% or higher.

As with anything, start with a Lower Load. Increase the Load once Technique is optimized with that Load.

How To Ensure Poor Techique Development

In performing a Resistance Exercise, once Muscle Fatigue sets in, Technique is altered for the worse.

Secondly, the Fast Twich Muscle Fiber are no longer being elicited with higher Reps in the Movement.

Third, the Muscle Firing Sequence is altered as Muscle Fatigues sets in.

Resolving The Technique Issue

1) Train the Movement for 1 Rep, working up to 85% of 1 Rep Max. This optimizes Technique Development.

2) Strength Traiing in the Movement should incorporte exercises that have a similar Movement Pattern and Strength Curve as the Movement being trained for Technique.

 

[oukeith1]

My only comment, coming from a PL background, is that your deadlift is very loose on the video. Once you grip the bar raise your hips a bit, tighten the whole body, and then literally pull yourself down to your position ( which is fine). This takes time to learn correctly but once you do the pull is much, much easier and stronger. I recommend practicing this by doing all deadlifts as a series of singles to practice (lightning deadlifts I believe)

Good call. Getting tighter is something I’ve been working on lately. I will try out your queues tomorrow when I pull.

 

[John K]

Different Conventional Deadlift Styles

There are two different Conventional Deadlift Styles

1) Olympic Lift Deadlift Style

The Deadlift is initiated by breaking the weight off the floor by Leg Drive, as some have stated, by pushing the bar away from the floor, In other word Leg Pressing the weight off the floor,.

This Deadlift Method ensures Olympic Lifter to position the bar for the Second Pull,

2) Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift Style

Many Powerlifters initiate breaking the weight off the floor with the back.

The Muscle Firing Sequence in the completing the Powerlifting Coventional Deadlift is: Back.> Legs> Back. (Reseach by Dr Tom McLauglin, PhD Exercise BioMechanics, former Powerlifter).

As per McLaughlin, the Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift Style enable many Powerlifters to "Pull More".

The Muscle Firing Muscle Firing Seqence often is so suttle that most individual don't notice it.

These individuals "Pull to start the lift".

The Bar Is Pulled Toward The Body

This ensure that Bar is pulled close the Body's Center of Gravity, COG.

The closer the Bar is to pulled toward the Body's Center of Gravity, less Torque is produced.

The farther away from the Body Center of Gravity, the greater the Torque; the greater the Bar Load is magnified.

The Squat-Morning Example

Some Lifter turn a Squat into a Good Morning. That occurs due to weaker Quads.

When Quad Drive stops, the work load is shifted to the Erectors to complete the Squat.

In doing so, the Bar Load is magnified due to the fact that greater Tor because of the Bar being farther away from the Body's Center of Gravity.

The Bar Should Stay Close To Your Legs At All Times.

Dragging the Bar Up you shin and thighs does two things...

1) It ensure that the Bar is as close as it can be to your Body's Center of Gravity.

2) Dragging it Up you Legs provides greater Stability. It like performing a movement with a Smith Machine. It takes one of the weak links out of the equation, the Stabiliers.

Are you including glutes and hamstrings with legs or back?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Are you including glutes and hamstrings with legs or back?

Not Clear

Iam not sure what you mean by this.

 

[John K]

Not Clear

Iam not sure what you mean by this.

In your post you talked about two styles of deadlift, Olympic and Powerlifter. Olympic you said was mostly leg drive, and Powerlifter you talked about firing sequence of Back -> Legs -> Back. At least how I understood what you wrote, the leg drive of the olympic and the legs of the powerlifter were mostly quads. But hamstrings and glutes are - or at least I thought they were - the main movers on the deadlift. I was trying to understand where they fit in with what you talked about. I don't normally think "leg drive" and think "hamstrings/glutes," but I also don't normally think of them as part of the back.

Deadlift I understood as mostly hip extension, and part quad extension, regardless of the style, so I'm trying to understand how that fits in with what you said.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Olympic you said was mostly leg drive, and Powerlifter you talked about firing sequence of Back -> Legs -> Back. At least how I understood what you wrote, the leg drive of the olympic and the legs of the powerlifter were mostly quads.what you wrote, the leg drive of the olympic and the legs of the powerlifter were mostly quads.

The Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift

McLaughlin note that the Muscle Firing Sequuence is Back-Legs-Back.

The Back initiates the drive off the floor, next the Legs kick in and the Back finished The Lock Out.

The Olympic Style Deadlift is Quad Dominat, as is the Sumo Deadlift.

The Quads in the Powerlifting Style assist in initialing the drive off the floor.

With The Powerlifting Stye "The Legs of the Powerlifter" are not "Mostly Quad.

McLaughlin and Contreras' Articles

McLaughlin's research on this has been posted multiple time on this forum.

McLaughlin's reseasch determined that in the Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift, the Back initiates the drive off the floor, then the Quads kick in.

Contreras article, also posted on this forum, has in supporting McLaughlin.

It is a bang-bang sequence, the Back initiates driving the Bar off the floor with the Quads quickly jumping into help Many individual don't notice the firing sequence.

Olympic Deadlifts

The drive off he floor is initiated with the Quads.

The cueing for it is to "Push the floor away from you." Essentially, to focus on Leg Pressing the bar off the floor.

"hamstrings/glutes,"

Hams and Glutes

The Hamstrings assist in the bottom part of Deadlift.

To maintan the Bar is kept as close as possible to the Body's Center of Gravity, the Bar need to be pulled back into the lifter. To do that, the Posterior Chain (Hamstrings, Glutes, Erectors) need to be engages to elicit the Hinge Action.

Deadlift I understood as mostly hip extension, and part quad extension, regardless of the style,

It Is Hip Extension

A Hip Extension primarily elicits more the the Posterior Chain.

Part Quad

The Quads are engaged to some extent, as well.

That because Leg Movements are a Paradox.

With the Upper Body, when Agonist Muscles are Contracting, the Antagonist Muscle are Relaxing.

With Lower Body Movements both the Agnist and Antagonist Muscle are engaged.

That has to do with...

Lombard's Paradox

Lombard's paradox - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lombard's paradox describes a paradoxical muscular contraction in humans. When rising to stand from a sitting or squatting position, both the hamstrings and quadriceps contract at the same time, despite them being antagonists to each other.

I'm trying to understand how that fits in with what you said.

Fits In With What Part?

I am not sure precisely what part you are referring to.

 

[John K]

The Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift

McLaughlin note that the Muscle Firing Sequuence is Back-Legs-Back.

The Back initiates the drive off the floor, next the Legs kick in and the Back finished The Lock Out.

The Olympic Style Deadlift is Quad Dominat, as is the Sumo Deadlift.

The Quads in the Powerlifting Style assist in initialing the drive off the floor.

With The Powerlifting Stye "The Legs of the Powerlifter" are not "Mostly Quad.

McLaughlin and Contreras' Articles

McLaughlin's research on this has been posted multiple time on this forum.

McLaughlin's reseasch determined that in the Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift, the Back initiates the drive off the floor, then the Quads kick in.

Contreras article, also posted on this forum, has in supporting McLaughlin.

It is a bang-bang sequence, the Back initiates driving the Bar off the floor with the Quads quickly jumping into help Many individual don't notice the firing sequence.

Olympic Deadlifts

The drive off he floor is initiated with the Quads.

The cueing for it is to "Push the floor away from you." Essentially, to focus on Leg Pressing the bar off the floor.


Hams and Glutes

The Hamstrings assist in the bottom part of Deadlift.

To maintan the Bar is kept as close as possible to the Body's Center of Gravity, the Bar need to be pulled back into the lifter. To do that, the Posterior Chain (Hamstrings, Glutes, Erectors) need to be engages to elicit the Hinge Action.



It Is Hip Extension

A Hip Extension primarily elicits more the the Posterior Chain.

Part Quad

The Quads are engaged to some extent, as well.

That because Leg Movements are a Paradox.

With the Upper Body, when Agonist Muscles are Contracting, the Antagonist Muscle are Relaxing.

With Lower Body Movements both the Agnist and Antagonist Muscle are engaged.

That has to do with...

Lombard's Paradox

Lombard's paradox - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lombard's paradox describes a paradoxical muscular contraction in humans. When rising to stand from a sitting or squatting position, both the hamstrings and quadriceps contract at the same time, despite them being antagonists to each other.


Fits In With What Part?

I am not sure precisely what part you are referring to.

Haha I think we're both not understanding what the other is saying. To me the deadlift is MAJORITY hip extension, and I don't see how that squares with most of what you've said. We can move on, sometimes my comprehension lags 1-10 years.

 

[Steve Freides]

The discussion around deadlift technique in the Strong at 55 caught my attention.

I’m wondering what folks might think about the differences in technique and/or intent between the two philosophies.

Starting Strength was the first barbell book I read and I took my deadlift and squat queues from that. While I’ve read PTTP multiple times, it occurred to me that I never paid much attention to Pavel’s instructions on how to perform the lift.

It seems to me like he may advocate for a more upright stance and more leg/quad drive than what I’m trying to do. I very much start the lift with a “pulling” intent.

Here is a video from about a year ago. Any thoughts/advice if I was to align more with a PTTP-style DL?

DL 2023

youtube.com

The PTTP approach, as is our approach with all strength things here, is on tension. Watch @Brett Jones' video where he demonstrates getting tight before bending down to the bar. (Link, anyone?) That is the StrongFirst approach in a nutshell. Your video finds you bending down to the bar with a rounded back - that is not the StrongFirst approach. Whether you pull or push or do both is a relatively fine point in comparison to focusing on getting tight and staying tight.

I have never deadlifted as you show in your video. Although I do some of my setup at the bottom, I still bend down to the bar with a flat back. What's best for you is, of course, up to you. What you're showing isn't what we teach - whether or not you wish to try something different is a personal choice.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

Different Conventional Deadlift Styles

There are two different Conventional Deadlift Styles

1) Olympic Lift Deadlift Style

The Deadlift is initiated by breaking the weight off the floor by Leg Drive, as some have stated, by pushing the bar away from the floor, In other word Leg Pressing the weight off the floor,.

This Deadlift Method ensures Olympic Lifter to position the bar for the Second Pull,

2) Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift Style

Many Powerlifters initiate breaking the weight off the floor with the back.

Haha I think we're both not understanding what the other is saying. To me the deadlift is MAJORITY hip extension, and I don't see how that squares with most of what you've said. We can move on, sometimes my comprehension lags 1-10 years.

In my experience yes there is a clear difference, but in the grand scheme of things not that much. The same muscles end up doing the work, especially once the bar is off the floor. Here are some of mine:

Olympic Lift Deadlift Style Hips are lower at start, and focus is on pushing with the legs off the floor. The movement off the floor should match what I would do with a clean, which would involve a double knee bend and then triple extension, shrug, and pulling under the bar. For the clean deadlift it starts as a clean but ends as a simple deadlift.
Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift Style Hips are higher at the start, and focus is on wedging and a balanced effort... I suppose we could say breaking the weight off the floor with the back. These days I do so many more cleans than deadlifts, my deadlift style is a bit polluted by a clean start position... you see my hips rise an inch or so at the start... so a better deadlift start position would have my hips THERE at the start position.
Here is a better Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift Style. Hips are higher at the start position and don't move as the weight breaks off the floor.

 

[Adachi]

@oukeith1

So, I'm no expert. But there is an interesting point that occurs in both starting strength and pttp that I think your video could have some room for improvement on.

Chest up.

In my view of your video, you seem relatively strong at this weight and you're able to lower it under control. And that's a good demonstration of tension.

However, I think the chest up cue offers me two areas of tension that I hope you might benefit from as well.

1. When I practice the chest up thought/cue it seems to help with enforcement of lordosis in the low back. The object is to keep all the shapes and orientations between my hips and shoulders nice and uniform throughout the lift like a hinged trap door.

2. I believe that chest up serves as a counterpoint to engaging in the lats to pull the weight toward my leg. In my experience it is harder to engage the lats if my sternum is at too low an angle. I have two thoughts I try and use for trying to keep the bar on my legs.

"swim the weight back"​

Where I'm thinking about the bottom of a butterfly stroke​

or​

"superman the arms"​

Where I think of sweeping my arms back like superman flying.​

​

As an aside, in knock em dead, @Fabio Zonin offers a very different take on setting up. It is summarized but a bit more exacting. Very different than starting strength. Either of which I find to be very valuable.

Generally I think you seem capable of being able to generate that rigidity in your torso. Chest up, strong back. More tension less slack. The pace of your lift up and down seems to imply it to my eyes.

All my best wishes to you in your training. And commendations for being able to control the weight up AND down.

 

[Brett Jones]

Individual structure will inform technique to a large degree—Pavel has very long femurs so his DL form is influenced by this.

Some individual coaching is always a great idea IMO and Fabio's Knock'em Dead.

@Steve Freides — I believe this is the article you were referring to:
How to Get Properly Loaded in the Deadlift and Swing | StrongFirst

RE: body structure
This article has a nice chart for understanding how it can influence form:
Deadlifts: Common Misconceptions and Practical Tips | StrongFirst

Here is a chart to simplify the general recommendations based on your individual proportions:

Adapted from Table 1: Hales, Michael PhD. Improving the Deadlift: Understanding Biomechanical Constraints and Physiological Adaptations to Resistance Exercise. Strength and Conditioning Journal 32(4): p 44-51, August 2010. | DOI: 10.1519/SSC.0b013e3181e5e300

 

[Anna C]

Lots of different discussions going on in this thread already.

• Method - PTTP/StrongFirst and Starting Strength
• Style/emphasis of conventional deadlift - Olympic Style start and Powerlifting Style start
• Type of deadlift - conventional and sumo

And of course, one's objectives are also key. My current objective is to get stronger with weightlifting (barbell Snatch and Clean & Jerk) so my deadlifting and squatting is designed to build strength for these positions and movements, not to lift maximum weight, as it would be with powerlifting.

All of these differences will affect the cues and techniques we use to deadlift.

 

[Steve Freides]

"swim the weight back"Where I'm thinking about the bottom of a butterfly stroke

I love this. Fly was always my favorite stroke when I was a swimmie. I miss doing it.

-S-