Q&D and Endurance Performance

heyholetsgo

Level 1 Valued Member
In my case
Hello,

As a disclaimer, I will never be as experienced in running / moutain biking / cycling as @vegpedlr @offwidth @ohnbye but from what I have noticed to this day, which does not necessarily concerns only Q&D:
- when I added burpees to my regular routine, my running increase
- when I stopped burpees, to do swings (S&S) instead, my running keep increasing
- when I stopped S&S, to do rucking, my running keep increasing

Nonetheless, my times / distances depends on
- how I feel this day (sometimes I just walk a lot during the day, so I tackle the training while not being fresh)
- if the terrain is easy (dry, etc...) I can go long and fast
- if it rains, or if the terrain is full of mud, etc... I do not go that fast

What I just want to say is that it is sometimes difficult to say "I run better since I do X". Most of the time, this is a combination of factors. For instance, I stopped doing burpees even if I was progressing well using them. I just wanted to switch the routine. Does that mean that swings are "more effective" than burpees ?

There are also a difference between an "anecdote" and a general rule. I think in ETK, it is mentioned that C&P training can lead to a one arm chin up. Well, of course it can help to an extent, but saying that it necessarily leads to it...

Kind regards,

Pet'
Ive been grappling for years. Generally speaking with the same few dozen people over and over again.

When I took up S&S and worked up to using the 24kg I started beating people pretty easily that were competitive in the past.

Recently I took up S&S on a regular basis after a series of injuries from grappling that kept me from doing it consistently. As I approach timeless simple again the strength and conditioning on the mats is quite noticeable and I am submitting people who would have been a stalemate 3 months ago.

Its anecdotal but I believe it will do the same for most people who grapple. FWIW.
 

wespom9

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I wouldn't assume that a performance/improvement like that is "typical", but more like possible.
Lots of good comments, healthy skepticism, etc. Remember that the best results get cherry picked for reporting. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, but don't assume the best result is a typical one.
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
Have a look at this SF article, not the standard 'Q&D', but it is from the same stable :)
That rowing article was great, I’m surprised I hadn’t seen it before. Lots of good food for thought. Those slow twitch hypertrophy articles were interesting and quite the opposite of Q&D. Other than the rowing example, I wonder who has tried it?
 
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Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
That rowing article was great, I’m surprised I hadn’t seen it before. Lots of good food for thought. Those slow twitch hypertrophy articles were interesting and quite the opposite of Q&D. Other than the rowing example, I wonder who has tried it?
It is a method, which Pavel mentions at JR podcast - Dr. Seluyanov's. There's quite a bit of material and evidence about it.
 

Martin Joe

Level 6 Valued Member
There are good training plans and smart ways to recover, but nothing beats specificity and going the distance.

In a Tim Ferris podcast Arnold Schwarzenegger stated "It's only the reps that count" if you want to be good at something.
It is the minutes on your MTB or in your running shoes that really counts when it comes to endurance.

I have followed the snatch protocol from my Q&D book - yes it is effective and IN COMBINATION with endurance training it is like yin yang.

@Derek Toshner : Thanks for inspiring so many here at SF with your insight, impressive TSC results, and articles.

/Martin Joe
 

wespom9

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
@Martin Joe agreed completely. Q&D is a great program for general endurance adaptations - possibly a great program to maintain endurance during the offseason of the sport, and possibly/probably a great adjunct to specific practice - but specificity is key. If you're a runner, the joints and muscles have to learn to handle the specific nature of the exercise.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
@Martin Joe agreed completely. Q&D is a great program for general endurance adaptations - possibly a great program to maintain endurance during the offseason of the sport, and possibly/probably a great adjunct to specific practice - but specificity is key. If you're a runner, the joints and muscles have to learn to handle the specific nature of the exercise.
Indeed. And even in a ‘runner’ that will vary a bit from track, to road running (10k / marathon etc) to trail running and ultra’s
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
To take it back to the top, here is the example quoted from the book for those who have not read it, or it’s been awhile:

“Flaherty, SFG/SFB/SFL, did a 100-plus-mile mountain bike ride in Colorado. Later, with no changes in his training other than an addition of six weeks of 033 swings twice a week, he did another ride, the Tour de Steamboat . . . As you can see, the second ride was longer and steeper, yet the rider completed it four hours earlier! “ (Location 652-662 Kindle edition)

There follows a table comparing the two races. They were fairly similar on paper, if anything the second was a bit harder. No mention of terrain though. Rough singletrack vs fire roads can make a big difference in avg speed.

So, with all those letters after his name, clearly a strong dude, and with a big enough aerobic engine to finish a 100 miler in 14 hrs. I would love to know more.
 

Coyote

Level 5 Valued Member
To take it back to the top, here is the example quoted from the book for those who have not read it, or it’s been awhile:

“Flaherty, SFG/SFB/SFL, did a 100-plus-mile mountain bike ride in Colorado. Later, with no changes in his training other than an addition of six weeks of 033 swings twice a week, he did another ride, the Tour de Steamboat . . . As you can see, the second ride was longer and steeper, yet the rider completed it four hours earlier! “ (Location 652-662 Kindle edition)

There follows a table comparing the two races. They were fairly similar on paper, if anything the second was a bit harder. No mention of terrain though. Rough singletrack vs fire roads can make a big difference in avg speed.

So, with all those letters after his name, clearly a strong dude, and with a big enough aerobic engine to finish a 100 miler in 14 hrs. I would love to know more.
I know nothing about mountain biking. Its something I always wanted to do, but I cant afford the bike, and nobody wants to see me in Lycra :oops:,


but if its close to Steamboat it aint flat. There are more mountainous places in Colorado, but still......


I think it a good subject to be brought up, there is a lot of difference between completing these ultra endurance events, and competing in these ultra endurance events. I complete them, I am afraid I only compete against myself.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

I agree with @offwidth There is always a sort of terrain adaptation and a specialization of the training. I always train in the woods but when I run on the road it seems easier. I guess this comes from the lesser stabilization demand.

Regarding the training, may be as long as we add something 'cardiovascular oriented' (snatch, swing, etc...) to our routine that we can easily recover from, then we necessarily get a boost from it.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

kurt perham

Level 4 Valued Member
here is the key part.
-6 WEEKS on.

So he did a baseline effort (ride 1), kept training "similar" and added a training dose.

Tested baseline 6 weeks better and bam! faster.

Isn't that just called....training?

All these questions come up:
-what prep for ride 1?
-what was body comp?
-what was fueling?
-equipment changes?
-weather and wind?

As noted, Q&D and S&S and all others are awesome. I mix and match them into my folks schedule all year. But like location in real estate...specificity is key for endurance sports.
 

StaffordStrength

Level 5 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
So I'm the guy that did the ride!

I need to clarify 1 thing, the race was a road race. I was on a road bike, not mountain bike. The confusion about it being a mtn bike ride because I specified to Pavel when I reported my results was that I rode in the mountains. That could have got lost in translation. Either way.

I live at sea level, NYC. I like to get out to Colorado to do at least 1 major road race per year. Usually I have no business going out to these rides as I can't train at altitude. I also don't get nearly enough miles in before the ride.

The stats, the first ride (14hr) was the Triple Bypass. The second was the Tour de Steamboat. The TdS was 8 miles longer and had about 200ft more climbing. The TdS was scheduled the weekend before StrongEndurance. I reached out to Craig Marker about 10 weeks prior to my ride and asked for a program that may help me out. He sent me 033, swings and banded push-ups.
When I completed the ride, I checked my Strava app to compare rides. I spoke with Pavel and Craig at StrongEndurance and next thing I know the book is released and I'm getting texts from everyone to turn to page 43.

The program, rolling the dice on Sunday to determine the # sessions per week and series (chart on page 80) and 5/4 or 10/2 (chart middle pg 81)

Thats it! That was all that changed between rides.

Active riding time 4hours down. Usually at Aid stations, I use bathroom, fill water, and get back on road. I'm not one to stop and take photos as BS around.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
Thanks for getting involved in the discussion.

4 hours reduction over an approximate 120 mile distance is a staggering amount. Great performance. Congratulations! (Both great courses by the way)
I think that some of us maybe were looking at this through the lenses of the pro / semi-pro / highly accomplished amateur; whose times for these types of events might already be pretty darn good. (i.e there is pretty much no way someone who can finish the 3bp in say 9 hrs or less is going to finish in 5 by doing swings and push-ups)

And you are right about living at seal level. It’s tough to train for mountain activities....
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
So I'm the guy that did the ride!

I need to clarify 1 thing, the race was a road race. I was on a road bike, not mountain bike. The confusion about it being a mtn bike ride because I specified to Pavel when I reported my results was that I rode in the mountains. That could have got lost in translation. Either way.

I live at sea level, NYC. I like to get out to Colorado to do at least 1 major road race per year. Usually I have no business going out to these rides as I can't train at altitude. I also don't get nearly enough miles in before the ride.

The stats, the first ride (14hr) was the Triple Bypass. The second was the Tour de Steamboat. The TdS was 8 miles longer and had about 200ft more climbing. The TdS was scheduled the weekend before StrongEndurance. I reached out to Craig Marker about 10 weeks prior to my ride and asked for a program that may help me out. He sent me 033, swings and banded push-ups.
When I completed the ride, I checked my Strava app to compare rides. I spoke with Pavel and Craig at StrongEndurance and next thing I know the book is released and I'm getting texts from everyone to turn to page 43.

The program, rolling the dice on Sunday to determine the # sessions per week and series (chart on page 80) and 5/4 or 10/2 (chart middle pg 81)

Thats it! That was all that changed between rides.

Active riding time 4hours down. Usually at Aid stations, I use bathroom, fill water, and get back on road. I'm not one to stop and take photos as BS around.
Thanks for explanation! Knowing the difference between road riding and MTB in some ways makes the anecdote even more impressive. I would think Q&D training would be even more beneficial for off road athletes given the uneven power demands.

If you could, what sort of bike training did you do, what volume, what intensities?

I’m not familiar with the Steamboat ride, but the Triple Bypass is STOUT.
 

StaffordStrength

Level 5 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Thanks for getting involved in the discussion.

4 hours reduction over an approximate 120 mile distance is a staggering amount. Great performance. Congratulations! (Both great courses by the way)
I think that some of us maybe were looking at this through the lenses of the pro / semi-pro / highly accomplished amateur; whose times for these types of events might already be pretty darn good. (i.e there is pretty much no way someone who can finish the 3bp in say 9 hrs or less is going to finish in 5 by doing swings and push-ups)

And you are right about living at seal level. It’s tough to train for mountain activities....
Thank you.
Agreed. I'm no where near that level.
The year I did the 3BP, was the week before the Colorado Pro. Some pro's finished in 6:30. At the TdS, the crew I was set up with (my cousins gym out there), finished 2hrs before me. They live there and ride Rabbit Ears pass every weekend.
 

StaffordStrength

Level 5 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Thanks for explanation! Knowing the difference between road riding and MTB in some ways makes the anecdote even more impressive. I would think Q&D training would be even more beneficial for off road athletes given the uneven power demands.

If you could, what sort of bike training did you do, what volume, what intensities?

I’m not familiar with the Steamboat ride, but the Triple Bypass is STOUT.
My main sports are Martial Arts. TaeKwonDo, Karate, Judo, and BJJ. So that's where all my focus goes.

As far as training for the rides, I ride my single speed during the week. To and from work and the martial arts, maybe 10 miles per day. Weekends I was on my road bike and tried to get 50 miles per weekend. My schedule just didn't allow for big rides.

The weekend I did the triple was the week before the Colorado Pro. Some pro's finished in 6:30. Just did the triple for s***s and giggles. Some did the double triple (the ride in reverse the next day).

I have family in Steamboat and had been trying to do that ride for a few years. That year all the stars aligned and I was able to do it before Strong Endurance. The hardest part for me was Rabbit Ears pass, which we start in the first 10 miles.

My first ride out in CO was the Ride the Rockies. 542miles over 6 days. My training for that was the 50 mile NYC 5 borough bike tour.

Next year I'd like to do LoToJa. Going to have to seriously train for that!
 

kurt perham

Level 4 Valued Member
My main sports are Martial Arts. TaeKwonDo, Karate, Judo, and BJJ. So that's where all my focus goes.

As far as training for the rides, I ride my single speed during the week. To and from work and the martial arts, maybe 10 miles per day. Weekends I was on my road bike and tried to get 50 miles per weekend. My schedule just didn't allow for big rides.

The weekend I did the triple was the week before the Colorado Pro. Some pro's finished in 6:30. Just did the triple for s***s and giggles. Some did the double triple (the ride in reverse the next day).

I have family in Steamboat and had been trying to do that ride for a few years. That year all the stars aligned and I was able to do it before Strong Endurance. The hardest part for me was Rabbit Ears pass, which we start in the first 10 miles.

My first ride out in CO was the Ride the Rockies. 542miles over 6 days. My training for that was the 50 mile NYC 5 borough bike tour.

Next year I'd like to do LoToJa. Going to have to seriously train for that!

thanks for the clarification and info.

BTW, Steamboat is on my short list of places I would live in a heartbeat!!
 
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