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Other/Mixed Q&D Sprint Protocols - thoughts and limitations

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

Georgiaoutdoors

Level 5 Valued Member
As I continue to dive into the StrongFirst literature I revise my thoughts on training ideas. As a locomotive endurance athlete (trail running, OCR, backpacking) I really like the idea of Q&D sprint protocols: a) brief (10 second?) sprint every 3 minutes, b) Sprint and pushup protocol from a newsletter I believe.

I think both could be good regular additions to my GPP training when not preparing for a specific event. I could definitely envision some cycles with these, LISS days, and some pull-ups. That being said, I experience some limitations that make doing sprints impractical sometimes, happy to reply with further details if requested.

Here are some thoughts/questions I am pondering:

-is using a treadmill a viable alternative? I have experimented with it and enjoy it, but I understand you miss out on the acceleration component

-What about running in place with something like egg weights maybe and pushups as an alternative?

-What about mixing Q&D movements, i.e. 2x/week sprint and pushups, 2x/week swings and pushups, rest of the week LISS?

-What would we consider the minimum effective dose of Q&D, especially sprint protocol, to derive benefit?

-Anyone experienced with mixing some Q&D, easy strength, and LISS all in the same week for a cycle? if so, how did it go?
 
Georgiaoutdoors said:
As I continue to dive into the StrongFirst literature I revise my thoughts on training ideas. As a locomotive endurance athlete (trail running, OCR, backpacking) I really like the idea of Q&D sprint protocols: a) brief (10 second?) sprint every 3 minutes, b) Sprint and pushup protocol from a newsletter I believe.

I think both could be good regular additions to my GPP training when not preparing for a specific event. I could definitely envision some cycles with these, LISS days, and some pull-ups. That being said, I experience some limitations that make doing sprints impractical sometimes, happy to reply with further details if requested.

Here are some thoughts/questions I am pondering:

-is using a treadmill a viable alternative? I have experimented with it and enjoy it, but I understand you miss out on the acceleration component

-What about running in place with something like egg weights maybe and pushups as an alternative?

-What about mixing Q&D movements, i.e. 2x/week sprint and pushups, 2x/week swings and pushups, rest of the week LISS?

-What would we consider the minimum effective dose of Q&D, especially sprint protocol, to derive benefit?

-Anyone experienced with mixing some Q&D, easy strength, and LISS all in the same week for a cycle? if so, how did it go?
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I've done it with 2 x32 farmers for 60 or so meters, which took about 16 seconds, then the 10 power push-ups, as usual, on the ;90.
On the treadmill I'd just speed it up prior to my start time then jump on. Sorta like accelerating.
 
Georgiaoutdoors said:
What about mixing Q&D movements, i.e. 2x/week sprint and pushups, 2x/week swings and pushups, rest of the week LISS?
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Sure why not?

Georgiaoutdoors said:
What would we consider the minimum effective dose of Q&D, especially sprint protocol, to derive benefit?
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I suppose one would have to ask themselves, how much benefit?

Sprints however really are ideal for this sort of thing.
 
Don Fairbanks said:
2 x32 farmers for 60 or so meters
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I only have one 32 right now, but I really like the idea.
Don Fairbanks said:
On the treadmill I'd just speed it up prior to my start time then jump on.
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Yep, this is what I've tried and like it at a steep incline.

mar2safety said:
This article has a sprint/pushup protocol that is fantastic.
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That's what I'm looking to incorporate. I just have a few limitations with sprinting:
-sprinting on flat ground, especially paved roads, has led to some injuries in the past and I just don't enjoy the feel of sprints on pavement. I'd prefer to do sprints on a steep hill and ideally a steep trail hill, but don't always have the time to drive to one to do my workouts.
 
Georgiaoutdoors said:
That's what I'm looking to incorporate. I just have a few limitations with sprinting:
-sprinting on flat ground, especially paved roads, has led to some injuries in the past and I just don't enjoy the feel of sprints on pavement. I'd prefer to do sprints on a steep hill and ideally a steep trail hill, but don't always have the time to drive to one to do my workouts.
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From my memory of Q&D, this is the reason Pavel included swings in the protocol instead of sprints as it is like a full body sprint that can be done more safely and in any location.
 
Georgiaoutdoors said:
That's what I'm looking to incorporate. I just have a few limitations with sprinting:
-sprinting on flat ground, especially paved roads, has led to some injuries in the past and I just don't enjoy the feel of sprints on pavement. I'd prefer to do sprints on a steep hill and ideally a steep trail hill, but don't always have the time to drive to one to do my workouts.
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I can relate to this. Luckily I live close (500m) from a soccer field. My usual routine is to walk to the field with my kettlebell, do some bounding and plyometrics to warm up, then get into the session. It's a grass field, so easier on the knees. I haven't tried this protocol with hill sprints, but that's a good idea.
 
silveraw said:
Just did 033 sprints today.
Way harder than swings and push-ups. Whoever said a swing is a full body sprint either never sprinted or doesn’t weigh anything.
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Yep I tend to agree. I experimented with the sprint protocol today as well - 10s sprint every 3minutes using my treadmill at high incline. It felt good, never really felt the burn of lactic acid or sucking wind during sprints. But I was surprisingly tired after it.

Real sprints in my opinion are one of the ultimate full body exercises and probably very neurologically demanding.
 
I have tried this for hill sprints. Loved it. I used the exact timing from Q&D (Two sprints 1 minute apart then a two minute rest) I started thinking that 10 second sprints seemed like a good idea, but soon found that to be VERY optimistic. I wound up finding that sprints of about 8 seconds were about right for me. (‘About right‘meaning that I was feeling mostly recovered after each 2 min rest and my power did not drop noticeably during each sprint)

To save watching a clock I made a timer to go off every time I was due to start a sprint. The length of time for the sprint was estimated by counting my steps. I know I take about three steps per second when sprinting, so I would just sprint for 24 paces at maximum power, take however many paces needed to come to a stop, then walk down the hill to my starting point to await the next beep.

Highly recommended.
 
Don’t the tables in page 21 onwards contradict using sprints for the protocol - where it shows the effectiveness of endurance/sprint/power/strength training for hypertrophy and aerobic power? (It concludes that power movements work best).
 
I sometimes do it with a prowler. I think it‘s safer than sprints and I still get a simiar feeling after them.

A training session that works well for me:

4 sec all out prowler sprint, recover 26 sec (turn the prowler around if necessary)
4 times (start every 30, like the 5/4 protocol)

restart @minute 4 or minute 5 for 3 to 5 rounds.

I switch between hill sprints and prowler sprints. Those trainings are awesome.
 
silveraw said:
Just did 033 sprints today.
Way harder than swings and push-ups. Whoever said a swing is a full body sprint either never sprinted or doesn’t weigh anything.
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I am not sure the intent of the protocol is to “sprint” (if “sprint” = “run flat out as fast as you possibly can”). The way I read it, one should find a pace they can maintain when fresh for ~25-30s. No one can “sprint” for 30s.

Just out running, this would be hard to control. Easier on a machine (treadmill or a row erg or a stationary bike), because you can do a 30s all out test, and then just keep that average wattage output for each interval.

I have also done it with jumping rope. I CAN only do about 60 double unders before I gas out, which takes about 30s. So a set of 20 takes about 10s. Which I figure is about how long 5-snatches takes. Tends to lead to calf strains for me if I don’t work up to them over a week or 2 though.
 
One person’s data:

For me, sprints uphill or pushing a sled or similar would be like swinging a very heavy Kettlebell, by which I mean they’d be closer to strength training, but not power training in the sense that Q&D wants us to do power training.

I count my steps, sprinting on level ground and typically doing between 15 and 25 steps in a single sprint and trying to accelerate the entire time.

My guesstimate is that, if I were doing these on a track, it would be one sprint every ~200 meters and walking the rest of the time. A “series” for me is four sprints over ~800 m, a solid rest of 3-5 minutes between each series, and just a few series, usually only two for me.

OTOH, I have a flight of 20 stair steps on my way to the local grocery store which I’ll sprint up two at a time. I often feel myself starting to lose power by the end of my 10 step-ups this way often but it’s what I’ve got so it’s what I use, and once in a while I nail it and still feel at full power at the end.

-S-
 
Reardon55 said:
I am not sure the intent of the protocol is to “sprint” (if “sprint” = “run flat out as fast as you possibly can”). The way I read it, one should find a pace they can maintain when fresh for ~25-30s. No one can “sprint” for 30s.

Just out running, this would be hard to control. Easier on a machine (treadmill or a row erg or a stationary bike), because you can do a 30s all out test, and then just keep that average wattage output for each interval.

I have also done it with jumping rope. I CAN only do about 60 double unders before I gas out, which takes about 30s. So a set of 20 takes about 10s. Which I figure is about how long 5-snatches takes. Tends to lead to calf strains for me if I don’t work up to them over a week or 2 though.
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For sure, I sprinted and stopped before I started to slow down. So more like 5-10s.

I tried to keep me in the spirit of Q&D. The main thing I was curious about was from the last thread on it. People were describing it as making them seriously out of breath. When doing swings and push-ups or snatches I never experienced that. With sprints my hr went higher and I got into a lot more o2 debt.
 
silveraw said:
So more like 5-10s.
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silveraw said:
People were describing it as making them seriously out of breath
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Experimenting on the treadmill with 10second sprints every 3 minutes, i could dial in the pace pretty well. I was never seriously out of breath. HR came up after the end of each sprint and breathing increased to match recovery, but it was nothing like old HIIT interval training I used to do on treadmill.

Caveat: sprints on a treadmill lack a true acceleration component which probably changes the impact of the training some.
 
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silveraw said:
For sure, I sprinted and stopped before I started to slow down. So more like 5-10s.

I tried to keep me in the spirit of Q&D. The main thing I was curious about was from the last thread on it. People were describing it as making them seriously out of breath. When doing swings and push-ups or snatches I never experienced that. With sprints my hr went higher and I got into a lot more o2 debt.
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The one thing ppl miss on the Q&D is the pace of the swings & snatches... It's not your normal set pace, you're supposed to sprint all the sets with an emphasis on over speeding the eccentric as well

Most ppl just perform Q&D with their normal cadence and no over speed eccentrics, that's the incorrect way of doing it
 
james_1127 said:
The one thing ppl miss on the Q&D is the pace of the swings & snatches... It's not your normal set pace, you're supposed to sprint all the sets with an emphasis on over speeding the eccentric as well

Most ppl just perform Q&D with their normal cadence and no over speed eccentrics, that's the incorrect way of doing it
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Add that to the list of things I missed
 
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