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Real life experience versus a Cert

Do you value a trainer with a cert or a trainer with experience training others with no cert?

  • Trainer with a cert

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • Real life experience

    Votes: 7 77.8%

  • Total voters
    9
While this might seem similar, I do not see an anti-science trend per se.
I dunno, I'd say when people dismiss well designed studies that don't agree with them immediately because they were funded by an organization with an interest in the topic is pretty anti science. Especially when they will hold up a poorly designed study that shows what they agree with but was funded by someone who also has a vested interest in the outcome.

I think it would be better to say that they are presenting science to support a rhetorical position rather than moving their position to accommodate a scientific finding. I find that to be anti-science.

At least to me science is basically a systematic way to learn more about the world. If I use it to only support my bias and ignore it when it doesn't, I'm being antithetical to its core purpose.
 
I dunno, I'd say when people dismiss well designed studies that don't agree with them immediately because they were funded by an organization with an interest in the topic is pretty anti science. Especially when they will hold up a poorly designed study that shows what they agree with but was funded by someone who also has a vested interest in the outcome.

I think it would be better to say that they are presenting science to support a rhetorical position rather than moving their position to accommodate a scientific finding. I find that to be anti-science.

At least to me science is basically a systematic way to learn more about the world. If I use it to only support my bias and ignore it when it doesn't, I'm being antithetical to its core purpose.
dismissing without intelligent reason is anti-science.
Insisting people "bow to the neon g-ds they made" even when there is fair reason to be skeptical is tyranny.
 
I would argue that results, if we mean improvements in weights lifted, 5k times, etc., aren't all that matter. As a music teacher, I do not try to make my students the best performers possible, I teach them in the way that lets music improve their lives as much as possible. Just as here at StrongFirst we say, "Your strength has a higher purpose," so it is with me as a music teacher. Results are usually measured by performance; real results for non-competitive athletes sometimes cannot be measured. E.g., it's a great coach that keeps a student motivated and interested in coming to their class, week after week, and year after year, because attending improves the student's life - if the student makes very little measurable progress, this is still a great coach.

Different coaches and different students will interact in different ways and we shouldn't lump them all together under a single metric if for no other reason than that some kinds of "progress" are difficult to measure.

-S-

I like to think of results as more than just a total or such. The desired result ultimately comes from the individual, what she wants from the coach.

I did specifically separately mention that the longevity of the coach and trainee relationship is also an excellent metric.
 
Didn't mean to hijack the thread, and I tried to stay away from politics. I will continue to do so, and try to connect what I have to say to the topic at hand as well.

I'm not sure how much it is anti-science versus anti-authoritarian or anti-establishment. While this might seem similar, I do not see an anti-science trend per se. Without trying to start a political argument, I think there is quite a difference. I think you see this very clearly in how they are quite ready to use science that supports their anti-authoritarian/establishment movement.
Perhaps I can rephrase my thought a little bit. Let me use my analogy of "if you had plumbing problems, you would call a plumber, not an electrician who knows a plumber." A lot of the very loud voices in the media sphere (never mind politics...) are more like the electrician who knows a plumber. There are media personalities out there who use the fact that they were successful in one field to bolster their arguments about fields they did not spend equal time in. Yet, their opions are widely regarded by their fan-base as intelligent and even "heroic," because they are "standing up to the establishment." There are media personalities who "do their own research," who I doubt could explain what a P-value is to their audience. Flat earthers have proved themselves wrong over and over again, and continued to think "hmm, maybe the equipment was broken."

There are also people within a broad field, who have strong opinions on certain, particular things within that field, AND who don't listen to the people who have actually made studying those particular things a focus. The whole point of the scientific process is to test ideas and gather new information about the world. Disregarding evidence not in favor of one's stance is, in my opinion, pretty anti-science. And yes, it happens on "both sides."

While I respect science (and am currently in university), I think it is important for people to do their self-experimentation. I lose respect for scientists who can't accept results that do not align with current science or try to make sure people worship science without being able to think for themselves. Research proves likelihood not fact and science often does not take into account personal variables like mileage.
Agree, generally speaking. Regarding the underlined part: I think that scientists need to accept when an endeavor maybe wasn't the right direction to go. The point is that people just need to admit mistakes, or when they were wrong about something. And the people listening to them need to be open to that. There's this widespread mentality that if an authority figure changes their position on something, that they are somehow being dishonest or something. If they were constantly changing, or it was clear they were doing so to gain a following, that's one thing. But if they are just updating their opinion based on new evidence, that should be accepted as normal.

In the training, fitness space, I have a beef with loud voices "nocebo-ing" their audience. That is, telling them that certain postures or movements are inherently dangerous. Has there been some evidence so? Sure, there are correlations. Under trials actually observing interventions purporting to address those "bad" movements or postures, this doesn't hold up that consistently. I would rather the established voices say, "well I've done it this way for a decade with success, but this new research is interesting." Instead they ignore it.

Regarding the part I bolded: While I can agree that some science communicators (such as Neil DeGrasse-Tyson) can sometimes speak somewhat arrogantly, I think this might sometimes be born out of frustration. It's incredibly difficult to communicate intricate concepts, that require in-depth knowledge to really understand and appreicate the importance of, to people who do not share the same background. To do it in 15-second soudbites on social media, since the population is losing its attention span? Forget it.

People who are untrained in a field need to accept that they aren't going to understand what someone with a background in that field does. This was my point about anti-science. Even if you find a few papers that seem to contradict what the "mainstream" says, that doesn't mean they are wrong. It means the evidence isn't always clear. I try to find sources that have success, logical reasoning, and can understand what scientific literature is saying.

not too mention the source o research funding.
I used to think that source of funding was a major issue. Now, I am not so convinced. The funding has to come from somewhere. Consider all the things that you would need for a decent study on hypertrophy, for example. You need competent researchers, who need to be fairly compensated for their time. You need facilities and equipment, which is likely not going to be free. You need funds to compensate subjects for their time away from their regular training. I'm sure we could think of more. Where do you think you would find the money for all that?

The point is that of course the meat industry will fund studies on red meat and cholesterol. Of course drug companies fund research into disease. Unless we, as a society, decide that goverment funding should be used to better the understanding of how to make humans happier and healthier (sorry, politics....) then private funding is here to stay. I think funding is a moot point.

If you're going to pick on studies for biases, you can look for the "conflict of interest" sections, and go look at the backgrounds of the researchers themselves. It's fairly easy to find other work by researchers.
 
I dunno, I'd say when people dismiss well designed studies that don't agree with them immediately because they were funded by an organization with an interest in the topic is pretty anti science. Especially when they will hold up a poorly designed study that shows what they agree with but was funded by someone who also has a vested interest in the outcome.
I would suggest that people do this because they do not know how to assess. It seems to be less pro/anti science and more confirmation bias, and is prevalent among both the scientists and the non. Clearly this is my opinion. But it also seems to be on all sides of the political aisles, in all fields that are contentious - including vaccines/medicine, nutrition, exercise, and climate. Criticisms are often dismissed without actually dismantling the claim. One clear example of this is the fame/infamy that someone like Graham Hancock has - he presents evidence, and more often than not the archeological community simply dismisses it as ludicrous without taking the time to explain why he is wrong. I use this example because it is simple and hopefully less politically charged. Layne Norton has a statement - "that which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." But the corollary of that seems problematic - "that which is dismissed without evidence can be accepted without evidence."

When one looks into medicine, drug development, nutrition, or exercise things get super weird super quick.
I think it would be better to say that they are presenting science to support a rhetorical position rather than moving their position to accommodate a scientific finding. I find that to be anti-science.
I agree, I think that is a HUGE problem today and it is very much antithetical to how science should be done. But... I do not see that to be very different in one group or another. While surely we could find ethical individuals that do not do that, there seems to be a great deal of individuals that "use" science to "prove" their rhetorical position. When combined with data-mining (one of the biggest threats to science currently in my opinion), this gets really sticky.
At least to me science is basically a systematic way to learn more about the world. If I use it to only support my bias and ignore it when it doesn't, I'm being antithetical to its core purpose.
Completely agreed here. This is why I get frustrated when people who are "establishment" simply dismiss contrary claims, whether it is in evolution, or medicine/drug development, or archaeology. If it is so clearly wrong, it should be easy to dismantle point by point the contrary claims, especially if you are an "expert" and a "professional" in that field, and the "lay" person may not be as equipped to understand why the "evidence" the "anti-establishment" group uses is misconstrued or low quality.

Again, using a non-politically charged example again (Hancock's recent Netflix series), a Historian who is also a YouTuber (The Lore Lodge) has several videos where he takes Hancock's statements in a fairly point-by-point manner and explains why this is wrong, misconstrued, or the source is questionable while also being open enough to say - this is a good point and requires further inquiry.

Obviously we're straying pretty far afield from our original topic...
 
Perhaps I can rephrase my thought a little bit. Let me use my analogy of "if you had plumbing problems, you would call a plumber, not an electrician who knows a plumber." A lot of the very loud voices in the media sphere (never mind politics...) are more like the electrician who knows a plumber. There are media personalities out there who use the fact that they were successful in one field to bolster their arguments about fields they did not spend equal time in. Yet, their opions are widely regarded by their fan-base as intelligent and even "heroic," because they are "standing up to the establishment." There are media personalities who "do their own research," who I doubt could explain what a P-value is to their audience. Flat earthers have proved themselves wrong over and over again, and continued to think "hmm, maybe the equipment was broken."

There are also people within a broad field, who have strong opinions on certain, particular things within that field, AND who don't listen to the people who have actually made studying those particular things a focus. The whole point of the scientific process is to test ideas and gather new information about the world. Disregarding evidence not in favor of one's stance is, in my opinion, pretty anti-science. And yes, it happens on "both sides."
I don't think we disagree here at all. There is a knife edge one walks in trying to assess how much to listen vs. question to "experts" speaking in their field. The more complicated the problem - the less obvious the solution, even for professionals.
 
I'd say both. Back in my ambulance days, I'd rather be partnered with a seasoned EMT with good attitude, than with a brand-new paramedic that was cocky.

Maybe not an apple to apples comparison, but its close.
A post about cocky paramedics is the most terrifying thing I've seen on this forum. Maybe that means I should get out more, but what if I get hurt while I'm out and run the risk of being "rescued" by a cocky paramedic?
 
A couple of things in this thread:
"Anti-science" was not expressed here as an attack, but anyone on television who uses the term seems to really mean "shut up and obey me." No one questions a light switch unless an electrician is needed. Everyone I've seen accused of being "anti-science" could be better described as saying "the people making statement X have been proven liars before so I do not trust them." Another variation is "Those making statement X are not angry with the liars, so I do not trust them" which suddenly makes guilt by association or guilt by lack of disassociation, which is understandable but possibly less fair. But, as BlueJeff pointed out, when there are no consequences for bad actions, this is where distrust really takes hold.

There are other problems with authority like "funding bias" where, statistically speaking, whoever pays money for the study magically seems to get exactly what he wants out of the study. I'd pick examples but this is a strength forum and I'm trying to keep us on the rails that I may have started to bend. Though I am suspicious about the need for those protein supplements.

There is also the replication crisis, where scientists seem to have great difficulty getting the same results when repeating the same experiments that others have conducted. This would be like a plumber saying he fixed your pipes and then you turn on the water and find a leak.

Gary Taubes says to eat as much fat as you want, saying insulin is the driver of fat storage while ignoring acyl carrier protein's effect on dietary fat. He is a bestseller and dietary "expert" and "authority" who focuses on the "science."

Joe Weider had a bodybuilding routine I saw years ago with 30 isolation exercises, each for 4 sets of 12 reps. He is a legend with a massive legacy.

I didn't replicate Taubes' promised results because I actually digested my fat. I didn't get Weider's results partly because I couldn't even find all the machines necessary [but that many sets???]. What consequences do they suffer? None. My complaint on an internet forum is seen less often than their presence in media. Random posters on this forum and elsewhere have improved my health far more than most of the biggest names in fitness.

What I will say about experts and authorities is that if they give you a low cost of investment (say, 6-12 weeks that I would be exercising anyway) that is another way to build trust. I love the free programs from this site and it gives genuine proof of concept to the audience. So perhaps this post is softer than my initial expression of distrust for authority. When the authority is associated with something that already has proven successful for you, that association should be taken into account.
 
Didn't mean to hijack the thread, and I tried to stay away from politics. I will continue to do so, and try to connect what I have to say to the topic at hand as well.


Perhaps I can rephrase my thought a little bit. Let me use my analogy of "if you had plumbing problems, you would call a plumber, not an electrician who knows a plumber." A lot of the very loud voices in the media sphere (never mind politics...) are more like the electrician who knows a plumber. There are media personalities out there who use the fact that they were successful in one field to bolster their arguments about fields they did not spend equal time in. Yet, their opions are widely regarded by their fan-base as intelligent and even "heroic," because they are "standing up to the establishment." There are media personalities who "do their own research," who I doubt could explain what a P-value is to their audience. Flat earthers have proved themselves wrong over and over again, and continued to think "hmm, maybe the equipment was broken."

There are also people within a broad field, who have strong opinions on certain, particular things within that field, AND who don't listen to the people who have actually made studying those particular things a focus. The whole point of the scientific process is to test ideas and gather new information about the world. Disregarding evidence not in favor of one's stance is, in my opinion, pretty anti-science. And yes, it happens on "both sides."


Agree, generally speaking. Regarding the underlined part: I think that scientists need to accept when an endeavor maybe wasn't the right direction to go. The point is that people just need to admit mistakes, or when they were wrong about something. And the people listening to them need to be open to that. There's this widespread mentality that if an authority figure changes their position on something, that they are somehow being dishonest or something. If they were constantly changing, or it was clear they were doing so to gain a following, that's one thing. But if they are just updating their opinion based on new evidence, that should be accepted as normal.

In the training, fitness space, I have a beef with loud voices "nocebo-ing" their audience. That is, telling them that certain postures or movements are inherently dangerous. Has there been some evidence so? Sure, there are correlations. Under trials actually observing interventions purporting to address those "bad" movements or postures, this doesn't hold up that consistently. I would rather the established voices say, "well I've done it this way for a decade with success, but this new research is interesting." Instead they ignore it.

Regarding the part I bolded: While I can agree that some science communicators (such as Neil DeGrasse-Tyson) can sometimes speak somewhat arrogantly, I think this might sometimes be born out of frustration. It's incredibly difficult to communicate intricate concepts, that require in-depth knowledge to really understand and appreicate the importance of, to people who do not share the same background. To do it in 15-second soudbites on social media, since the population is losing its attention span? Forget it.

People who are untrained in a field need to accept that they aren't going to understand what someone with a background in that field does. This was my point about anti-science. Even if you find a few papers that seem to contradict what the "mainstream" says, that doesn't mean they are wrong. It means the evidence isn't always clear. I try to find sources that have success, logical reasoning, and can understand what scientific literature is saying.


I used to think that source of funding was a major issue. Now, I am not so convinced. The funding has to come from somewhere. Consider all the things that you would need for a decent study on hypertrophy, for example. You need competent researchers, who need to be fairly compensated for their time. You need facilities and equipment, which is likely not going to be free. You need funds to compensate subjects for their time away from their regular training. I'm sure we could think of more. Where do you think you would find the money for all that?

The point is that of course the meat industry will fund studies on red meat and cholesterol. Of course drug companies fund research into disease. Unless we, as a society, decide that goverment funding should be used to better the understanding of how to make humans happier and healthier (sorry, politics....) then private funding is here to stay. I think funding is a moot point.

If you're going to pick on studies for biases, you can look for the "conflict of interest" sections, and go look at the backgrounds of the researchers themselves. It's fairly easy to find other work by researchers.
Fully agree.
As far as the funding.....There definitely a sort of "lying by omission" with studies.
Certain studies that should be done are not because there is zero benefit to prove anything.
I assume there are more studies done on gym equipment than on Isometrics because there isn't money to be made on Isometrics.
I would argue that reading @northcoastmiller thread on Isometrics can teach you far more than most studies.
 
I’ve worked with a nepo hire or two. They were friendly, but didn’t exactly have the skill set required for the job. Despite having all the right education checkboxes.
"Nep hire" (at least to me) doesn't really fit the description of having gone to the best school in the field and worked and practiced with the best.
 
As far as the funding.....There definitely a sort of "lying by omission" with studies.
Certain studies that should be done are not because there is zero benefit to prove anything.
Definitely, thus my sentiment that won't change unless there's a more widespread drive to benefit people as a whole, instead of singular (corporate, whatever...) interests.
 
I think you misread that... 120 sets in one workout? No.
The Weider bodybuilding routine I saw was 20 years ago so my statement of 30 different exercises was an estimate. It was for a weekly routine in a bodypart split. Still, even with my almost non-existent exercise knowledge at the time, 4x12 to failure that often seemed like a big ask. The attitude of the muscle mags suggested that only the people who were truly serious about strength and muscle would be willing to put in the effort, and serious meant every set to failure like this repeatedly ALL THE TIME.
 
The Weider bodybuilding routine I saw was 20 years ago so my statement of 30 different exercises was an estimate. It was for a weekly routine in a bodypart split. Still, even with my almost non-existent exercise knowledge at the time, 4x12 to failure that often seemed like a big ask. The attitude of the muscle mags suggested that only the people who were truly serious about strength and muscle would be willing to put in the effort, and serious meant every set to failure like this repeatedly ALL THE TIME.
Spread out over a week (120 sets), it's not unbelievable, but I don't recall Weider ever writing that every set should be taken to failure. I'm not defending Weider fwiw, let's just not get too carried away w. the mud slinging.
 
I dunno, I'd say when people dismiss well designed studies that don't agree with them immediately because they were funded by an organization with an interest in the topic is pretty anti science. Especially when they will hold up a poorly designed study that shows what they agree with but was funded by someone who also has a vested interest in the outcome.

I think it would be better to say that they are presenting science to support a rhetorical position rather than moving their position to accommodate a scientific finding. I find that to be anti-science.

At least to me science is basically a systematic way to learn more about the world. If I use it to only support my bias and ignore it when it doesn't, I'm being antithetical to its core purpose.

My daughter has chronic migraine, now largely under control after a lengthy process of finding useful management approach. One of the possible abortives is a device known as Nerivio, it creates what can only be described as a distracting impulse to your arm, bordering on discomfort. Despite using an electrical pulse and easily recharged, it times out after X number of doses and must be sent back for replacement. It is seldom covered by insurance and marketed at a population that is often desperate for relief of any kind. The only peer reviewed research on this unit that demonstrates efficacy was published by an employee of the company that makes it, funded by same.

So now we have predatory pricing, insider funded research, independently unverified claims. This is where following the money makes sense. A study on the underlying principles would inspire more confidence.

‐---------

Generally (to me) there are three types of research in the fitness world:

- studies that report an observation that stands largely alone, in context relative to the experimental conditions and claims nothing more.

- studies that report observations that add nuance to previous observations and reference those observations

- studies that directly refute earlier observations and can explain why their methodology invalidates those earlier observations

Its is up to the reader to understand the difference, and to recognize when one of the above is being misrepresented by some instagram or media figure. This can also be applied to research in general.
 
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