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S&S+, Judo, Kendo, Historical & Modern Fencing, Walking.

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masa said:
I have relatives in Norway, Sweden and Canada too. So plenty of viking links too. ;)

I too feel that pressing is critical.
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Taking a step back from kettlebells for a few months has helped me to better understand what Pavel intended with his S&S programme. It is step one towards consistent and strong kettlebell training, but it is not all there is to kettlebells. Also, we need to adapt our training to our own goals and needs. I hate doing squats, so I am not going to do the goblet squats any longer. I just find them awkward and annoying. It's a personal taste thing. I also don't like pushing the swings too heavy. I happen to have some lower back issues, so here is a good reason to focus more on the cardio and mobility aspects of swings over raw power and strength there. However, I can do the presses and TGUs with quite a lot of stability and confidence.

All these moves are important for combat sports and martial arts. My first face to face rapier lesson is on Thursday this week! I have been taking kendo and foil fencing lessons on Zoom.
 
Kozushi said:
I hate doing squats, so I am not going to do the goblet squats any longer. I just find them awkward and annoying.
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So, just to offer a counter-point... what should you train? Things that you are already good at? Or things that you find awkward an annoying?

There is no "right" answer, of course, this is a point of philosophy that has been debated for a long time. I am one that believes in training to address the weak points - I spend a lot of time on things that are awkward and annoying. If you are a generalist (i.e. not a competitive athlete), in my mind your time is best spent addressing the weak points when you find them, rather than honing the strong points.

The question then, of course, is how strong the weak points need to be. If you can comfortably goblet squat the 32, will the ability to goblet squat the beast really benefit you? I'd be willing to concede that it probably doesn't. So it's just a question of where does a weakness stop mattering.

I don't know the answer, just putting out some thoughts.
 
WhatWouldHulkDo said:
So, just to offer a counter-point... what should you train? Things that you are already good at? Or things that you find awkward an annoying?

There is no "right" answer, of course, this is a point of philosophy that has been debated for a long time. I am one that believes in training to address the weak points - I spend a lot of time on things that are awkward and annoying. If you are a generalist (i.e. not a competitive athlete), in my mind your time is best spent addressing the weak points when you find them, rather than honing the strong points.

The question then, of course, is how strong the weak points need to be. If you can comfortably goblet squat the 32, will the ability to goblet squat the beast really benefit you? I'd be willing to concede that it probably doesn't. So it's just a question of where does a weakness stop mattering.

I don't know the answer, just putting out some thoughts.
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You are making me think.
I think my problem with the goblet squats is a mobility issue. It goes back to old lower back problems. I probably do need to focus on this weakness.

I think the end result of this is to just go back to the scientifically tested and proven S&S programme, maintaining it perfectly at the 32kg level, but with presses added.
 
I'm not a fan of squats either, so I was pleased to find the program that has not have any, not even in a warm up.
 
masa said:
I'm not a fan of squats either, so I was pleased to find the program that has not have any, not even in a warm up.
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I'm lunging all the time in kendo and fencing, so it isn't like I'm not getting enough leg engagement, let alone the way the legs are engaged in swings and the TGUs, but I can see that Hulk has given me some good advice. He made me think about whether I was avoiding the goblet squats from just disinterest or from weakness, and actually it is from weakness. And, if from weakness then I ought to think about whether or not I should work on overcoming the weakness. I think I should.

To add, I am very impressed with what I can do physically in my Zoom combat sport training due to my S&S background! I am truly physically very apt! It is very nice being so strong, coordinated, flexible and well-balanced!!! These are all super-important attributes for fencing, wrestling, whatever! :)
 
Just to throw out an example from my own training - the tactical frog. Whoever came up with that was clearly some kind of masochist - it is the definition of awkward and annoying. But, slowly but surely, it seems to do good things for hip mobility. For me, this show up in catching baseballs - I can get deeper into a catcher's squat than most of the other dads I see out there.

There's lots of ways to address hip mobility - goblet squats, tactical frog, cossack squats, fire hydrant circles... but I think they might all be awkward and annoying. ?
 
I used to hate swings too.
WhatWouldHulkDo said:
Just to throw out an example from my own training - the tactical frog. Whoever came up with that was clearly some kind of masochist - it is the definition of awkward and annoying. But, slowly but surely, it seems to do good things for hip mobility. For me, this show up in catching baseballs - I can get deeper into a catcher's squat than most of the other dads I see out there.

There's lots of ways to address hip mobility - goblet squats, tactical frog, cossack squats, fire hydrant circles... but I think they might all be awkward and annoying. ?
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I think my workouts are going to be every second day. This is common sense, I think. Body needs to rest and get stronger. Here was today's:

1. Press complex:
6X:
24kg
  • 5 L presses
  • 5 R presses
  • 5 goblet squats
  • 3 or more goblet curls

2. 10X10 L/R 1h swings 24kg

3. 2X5 L/R TGUs 32kg
 
I like the above workout. It's like Red Zone plus S&S. Both programmes are scientifically proven to work miracles. I'm doing both. I need the strength of both programmes for my combat sports ambitions.

Not something to do every day but every second or even third day depending on how I feel.

It's kind of funny. I was fully prepared to take time off kettlebells in order to focus on fencing and kendo, but my coaches in both sports have been putting a lot of emphasis on strength building, haha, so I've gone back to kettlebells with a vengeance! Evidently there is no way to become a "real" athlete without serious strength training to support your dreams.

So, to get Red Zone in there properly I need two separate 5X5 sessions of the presses. I think I'll try this today:

1. 24kg 5X5 l/r presses
2. 24kg 3X5 goblet squats with curls
3. 24kg 5X5 l/r presses
4. 24kg 5X10 l/r 1h swings
5. 32kg 5X1 l/r TGUs

I might try the 28kg for the swings today.
If I wasn't doing the TGUs also I might choose to C&P the presses, hmmm... maybe I will C&P them. We'll see. I think Pavel recommends this for better mobility training.
 
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I think Pavel's pressing protocol introduced in Gearpatrol would be less taxing. It's 2x2-3-5 on lighter days and up to 5x2-3-5 on heavy day. Total three times a week. I press heavy once a week. You suppose to build to five rungs, like in original ROP.
www.gearpatrol.com

3 Quick Total Body Workouts Recommended by the Pros | Gear Patrol

GP consulted with Pavel Tsatsouline, Dan Roberts and Kyle Railton to come up with three quick total body workouts.
www.gearpatrol.com www.gearpatrol.com
Last program of the three. I think it would be enough with the moderate weight get-ups. I going to introduce get-ups back in my program too at some point and probably going to use some of your tactics.;)
 
masa said:
I think Pavel's pressing protocol introduced in Gearpatrol would be less taxing. It's 2x2-3-5 on lighter days and up to 5x2-3-5 on heavy day. Total three times a week. I press heavy once a week. You suppose to build to five rungs, like in original ROP.
www.gearpatrol.com

3 Quick Total Body Workouts Recommended by the Pros | Gear Patrol

GP consulted with Pavel Tsatsouline, Dan Roberts and Kyle Railton to come up with three quick total body workouts.
www.gearpatrol.com www.gearpatrol.com
Last program of the three. I think it would be enough with the moderate weight get-ups. I going to introduce get-ups back in my program too at some point and probably going to use some of your tactics.;)
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Thank you. I did not know about this workout.
 
In case anyone was wondering, fundamentally kendo and Western fencing are the same exact thing. You have to get past your opponent's sword and to do so you have to do the same things with slight adjustments for differences in how the weapon is held and for legal striking areas. The devil is always in the details of course, but training in one improves the other.
 
The same is true for BJJ and judo groundwork. BJJ focusses on the Guard but in judo the Guard is stalling if held for more than a few seconds. Judo focusses on groundholds, but in BJJ groundholds are stalling if you hold them for too long without trying to progress. Thus I've noticed that BJJ can help judoka with Guard play and judo can help BJJers with training pins and escapes. Cross training is not at all necessary, but for people interested in both combat sports, they aren't losing anything by training in the other discipline and in fact they are learning some extra skills that are helpful.
 
Did this today:
  • 10X5 l/r 24kg presses
  • 3X5 24kg goblet squats and curls
  • 10X10 l/r 24kg swings
  • 5X2 l/r 32kg TGUs

So, it's basically S&S but with a step down in swing weight, and with a pressing programme added. I think it's a good tweak for my own goals as pressing is important for fencing. The swings and TGUs are too, but I can't neglect the bent arm strength of presses.
 
Thanks for the like, Hulk. I appreciate your input.

I think today I will try to do S&S back at Timeless Simple (32kg therefore) all the way through, but with the little 5X5 pressing programme done a few hours earlier. I'll try for 28kg today for the presses.
 
Kind of an aside, but I was astonished at how I wasn't aware of how pronounced and important leaning into the thrust is in fencing before a lesson I had last week in rapier. This has changed my whole perspective about how to train.
 
I might do the 32kg swings in sets of 5 today to ensure I do not overdo it the first time back at that weight, of course reaching to 100 total.
 
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