Kettlebell Serious Question: Simplicity or Variety?

[silveraw]

In defend of this idea: I just listen to Laura Phelps on Dave Tate's Table Talk. She has her lifters doing different max effort every weeks for the whole year. Even secondary exercises and accessories rotates weekly too. Cleary exercise rotations can work.

I think the big issue comes when people see coaches do this and rotate exercises a bit too hard or too often for where they are in training.

Instead of going from low bar back squat to low bar box squat they just jump to a rotating walking lunge that passes the barbell around their body in a 360 pattern because some functional guru on IG said it was the best. Meanwhile whenever they try to back squat again, it takes three weeks to get the technique dialed in again.

I'm only rotating exercises maybe every 6 weeks, and often not the main lift (I've been competition squatting since January I think). But I'm more of a beginner to low intermediate lifter. I'd imagine as I progress I'd have to start rotating more aggressively through variations. Maybe even do a "speed day"! (Y'all lifting with bands looks like a good time to be honest).

 

[John K]

I think the big issue comes when people see coaches do this and rotate exercises a bit too hard or too often for where they are in training.

Instead of going from low bar back squat to low bar box squat they just jump to a rotating walking lunge that passes the barbell around their body in a 360 pattern because some functional guru on IG said it was the best. Meanwhile whenever they try to back squat again, it takes three weeks to get the technique dialed in again.

I'm only rotating exercises maybe every 6 weeks, and often not the main lift (I've been competition squatting since January I think). But I'm more of a beginner to low intermediate lifter. I'd imagine as I progress I'd have to start rotating more aggressively through variations. Maybe even do a "speed day"! (Y'all lifting with bands looks like a good time to be honest).

"Over variation" can be killer.

Low Bar Squat
Low Bar Paused Squat
Low Bar Box Squat

Boom. 3 week ME schedule, new exercise every week ...

High Bar Squat
High Bar Paused Squat
High Bar Box Squat

Another 3 weeks...

That's 6 variations and you don't need anything other than a bar and a box. And when you come back to competition-style squatting you're probably still gonna be ok. And they make a decent Heavy-Medium-Light set up, with the paused being a light variation and box being a medium variation, even if you're doing it ME.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I get better results when I just do one main movement 3 x a week. I build more reps, which helps me get ready for the next size up bells, and technique improves.

I like switching it up with blocks of 3 different movements once a week, but more so that I don’t lose other skills

If I’m patient, they compliment each other

 

[watchnerd]

Did he look like that even during competitive season, like when he had to take the better/working supplements?

Looked like pretty normal athletic dude. Could be a cyclist:

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Arthur Jones used to say something like "Want to have big arms? Bench 500 and do dips and chins w. 200lbs and you'll have them." Problem is that very few will ever build to that at all and even fewer will without a ton of accessory work/exercises.

As others have said, how you define "variation" can *ahem* vary... Volume, intensity, density, rep speed/tempo, range of motion, exercise selection/variation, use of equipment, etc. I'm a fan of "same but different" generally, but sometimes you need plain ole different to get out of a rut (for example).

 

[Dogchapman7]

Simplicity for me I only do 2 workouts after a long break from working out.
Emom style I came back at 5 reps double 32kg overhead presses every 2 minutes for 10 sets, quickly moved to 10 sets every 90 seconds then every 75seconds,
Today I done 5 reps every 60 seconds which I’m proud of , feel like it’s blasting my cardio at same time, I’m adding in a new routine every second day of clean and press double 32kg which will be 10 sets of clean 1 press clean 2 press clean 3 press then rest my goal will be to backfill to clean 2 press clean 2 press clean 3 press then clean 2 press clean 3 press clean 3 press until I hit 3 press on every clean

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I think it was Arnold who used to say "confuse the muscle".

The General Adaptation Syndrome

This is the foundation of a well written Strength Training Program (Maximum Strength, Power, Speed, Hypertrophy) etc.

There are three phases to it. Look it up for more detail.

Hans Selye, MD, PhD referenced The General Adaptation Syndrome (circa 1923) with diseases.

An overly simplistic definition is your body either adapted or you died.

Periodization Training

The foundation of Periodization is based on The General Adaptation Syndrome.

That meaning the body will eventually adapt to an Exercise. When adaptation occurs, progress stops.

Research has demonstrated that "Varying Exercises" elicits a greater training effect in the long run.

Muscle Confusion

This is the dumbed down term for The General Adaptation Syndrome the Joe Weider came up.

As someone once said, "If you want to be good borrow other ideas. If you be great, steal them." Weider fell in to that last category.

Varying Exercises

Information on his has been posted multiple times. However, for some reason very few individual have picked up on this training concept.

With that in mind, here it is once more...

Other/Mixed - Why not vary exercises day to day?

Beginner question... If it's beneficial to vary volume and intensity day to day/week to week, then why not completely vary exercises? (Like Crossfit WODs, for instance) i.e. M - Moving Target Kettlebell Complex (Clean - Press - Squat) W - Naked Warrior (one arm pushup - pistol) F - Quick and...

www.strongfirst.com

Post 8

Changes in exercises are more effective than in loading schemes to improve muscle strength - PubMed​

This study investigated the effects of varying strength exercises and loading scheme on muscle cross-sectional area (CSA) and maximum strength after 4 strength training loading schemes: constant intensity and constant exercise (CICE), constant intensity and varied exercise (CIVE), varied... www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Abstract

This study investigated the effects of varying strength exercises and/or loading scheme on muscle cross-sectional area (CSA) and maximum strength after four strength training loading schemes: constant intensity and constant exercise (CICE), constant intensity and varied exercise (CIVE), varied intensity and constant exercise (VICE), varied intensity and varied exercise (VIVE). Forty-nine individuals were allocated into five groups: CICE, CIVE, VICE, VIVE, and control group (C). Experimental groups underwent a twice a week training for 12 weeks. Squat 1RM was assessed at baseline and after the training period. Whole quadriceps muscle and its heads CSA were also obtained pre- and post-training. The whole quadriceps CSA increased significantly (p<0.05) in all of the experimental groups from pre- to post-test in both the right and left legs: CICE: 11.6% and 12.0%; CIVE: 11.6% and 12.2%; VICE: 9.5% e 9.3% and VIVE: 9.9% and 11.6%, respectively. The CIVE and VIVE groups presented hypertrophy in all of the quadriceps muscle heads (p<0.05), while the CICE and VICE groups did not present hypertrophy in the vastus medialis and rectus femoris (RF), and in the RF muscles, respectively (p>0.05). The CIVE group had greater strength increments than the other training groups (Effect size confidence limit of the difference -ESCLdiff CICE: 1.41 - 1.56; VICE: 2.13 - 2.28; VIVE: 0.59 - 0.75). Our findings suggest: a) CIVE is more efficient to produce strength gains for physically active individuals; b) as long as the training intensity reaches an alleged threshold, muscle hypertrophy is similar regardless of the training intensity and exercise variation.

With that in mind, Bodybuilders Varying Exercise as a means of Increasing Muscle Mass.

Let break this down some more...

Training Age

How often an individual need to Vary (Change) Exercise is based on their Training Age.

1) Novice Lifers

These individuals adapt slowly. They can train the same exerciser for up to 12 weeks before they need to change them.

2) Advance Lifter

These individual adapt quickly. They can train the same exerciser for up to 4 weeks before they need to change them.

3) Intermediate LIfter

These individual are in between Novice and Advanced. They can train the same exerciser for up to 8 weeks before they need to change them.

Take Away

As a general rule, anytime you stop making progress with an Exercise or end up going backwards, Change it!

A Great Example Of Varying Exercise

I do the back squat, front squat, box squat, zercher squat. I'll use a straight bar, a bow bar, a safety squat bar. I'll add different amounts of bands or chains. Etc.

It's all simple. But there's a lot of in built variety.

Anecdotal Data

One of the fundamental principles of the Westside Powerlifting Protocol is based on Varying Exercises.

Research Data

Transfer Between Lifts: Increased Strength in Untrained Exercises

https://www.nsca.com/contentassets/3c0357cb66b54c6b9a598b0ca578600a/scj-transfer-between-lifts-2022.pdf

Post 1 Cool Training Stuff: Safety Straps

Research has demonstrate that an exercise similar in nature to another one produces gain in the movement not being performed..

Although the principle of specificity holds true, a phenomenon called “transfer” also occurs when a lifter increases their strength in an exercise that they did not train. For example, if a lifter performed lunges in lieu of back squat, but their back squat strength increased anyway, there would be transfer between the lunge and back squat.

Summary

Some Strength and Hypertrophy can be developed utilizing the same Exercises forever.

However, Varying Exercises are more effective eliciting long term results.

 

[the hansenator]

For the “Changes in exercise are more effective than in loading schemes” part, how different is too different?

Would workouts alternating between reverse lunges and split squats be the right amount of different?

Would alternating squats and split squats be too different?

 

[Adachi]

Is it better to:
Get stronger and stronger at just a few movements?
or keep things fresh and keep my body confused and never really adapt?

So I think of this in quadrants.

Aspirations	beginner	advanced
Recreational	fewest movements for the longest timeframe	more movements that are used for shorter periods, or rotated more frequently.
Competitive	additional accessory movements employed and sometimes frequently rotated	the most complex set of movements, sometimes employed for very short acute time-frames.

​

overall, I think it depends on where you are in your training, How advanced you are, and whether you have preferences and the necessary gear. I make do with as little as I can, gear-wise. But, I think there are always important questions about what to prioritize.

My Recent Experience doesn't obviate the superiority of complexity (for me).

I'm currently engaging in a more complex training cycle than in the past. And it isn't clear to me that I'm getting the most out of it (caveat: I'm not well informed by my inexperience as to what constitutes "the most"). I'm making some progress while chasing three rabbits; using 2-3 lifts for each. (Strength, hypertrophy, conditioning). but I might make just as much progress using a simpler set of tools; the kettlebell snatch.​

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I'm using additional lifts and different set/rep formats and experimenting with different modalities each session throughout the week. But, subsequently, I intend to move into a run at King Sized Killer and see how the experience compares. It is too bad that my life is a much less controlled experiment than much of what might be hoped for; in making such a comparison. I'm sure the training prior effects the training after and vice versa. I wonder if I'll look in the mirror and be able to tell the difference in a few months, as far as what was more or less effective.​

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I'm not saying whether it's not good to try new things or experiment with protocols. I'm just saying, that it's not clear to me that I wouldn't have gotten some strength, some hypertrophy, and some conditioning increases, just from King-sized killer, which is based on the snatch, or KBSF C&J plan, for example.​

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I spent (as a beginner) about a year doing nothing but swings and getups. I've also spent about 6 months doing nothing but the kettlebell snatch. All along the way I've been gaining some amount of muscle, I've been gaining strength, and experiencing some benefits of increased conditioning. Maybe I will have another chance to dedicate several months to the same, or very few, lift(s). I must say, the progress so far with just one lift (snatch) has paid dividends. Two lifts paid well, also.​

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I haven't really noticed an ability to speed up or slow down the proverbial adaptive train, with barbell or kettlebell, or this or that movement; at least not by very much that showed me it was worth it. that train keeps chugging as long as I'm above a nominal threshold of load.​

I think including some specialized accessories is a great way to fill some hypertrophy gaps that you want to focus on. also, it depends on your current levels of hypertrophy and muscle development and your ambitions for future development. I think that having a clear picture of what you're aiming at will do a lot to guide answers to this question.

I think the recreational beginner has little to no need to swap out main movements like the big three barbell lifts, or swings and presses. or swings/getups etc. I think the Advanced competitor will absolutely need and use all sorts of variations. those who are in-between will have other mixes of rotation, shorter training cycle values, and accessory lift rosters. which, I'm sure a more experienced coach would be able to help them configure.

 

[DocMike]

Just remember...everything works but nothing works forever. Westside and conjugate thrive on variety as does DUP. Some world class lifters do the big 3 only whereas others vary every block.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

For the “Changes in exercise are more effective than in loading schemes” part, how different is too different?

Transfer Between Lifts: Increased Strength in Untrained Exercises

This research went into it. That is a good place to start.

Similar Movements and Muscles Involved

They need to be similar to the Exercise that you want to increase Strength in.

Anecdotal Data

I do the back squat, front squat, box squat, zercher squat. I'll use a straight bar, a bow bar, a safety squat bar. I'll add different amounts of bands or chains. Etc.

Antti provide a great example the use of Varying Exercise that are similar in nature to each other.

Let's drill down some more...

Powerlifting Low Bar Wide Stance Back Lift Example

If an individual's focus is on increasing this movement, Auxiliary Varying Exercises that would work are...

1) High Bar Narrow Stance Back Squat

2) Wide Stance High Bar Back Squat

3) Belt Squats

This my staple Auxiliary Varied Squat Training Movement that allowed me to maximize Squat.

It allows me performed different types of Belt Squat...

a) Wide Stance Incline

b) Medium Stance Incline

c) Narrow Stance Incline

d) Wide Stance Decline

e) Medium Stance Decline

f) Narrow Stance Decline

...etc

Antti's recommendations...

4) Front Squat

5) Box Squat

6) Safety Squat Bar

Varying the bar placement (High Bar, Low Bar, Front Squat, Zercher Squat, ect) or Varying the Stance (Wider, Narrow, Medium) turn make it a different exercise.

Ice Cream Example

Think of Varying Exercise like Ice Cream.

Chocolate, Vanilla, Strawberry, etc. are all Ice Cream but they are different.

Would workouts alternating between reverse lunges and split squats be the right amount of different?

Yes

These are Squats.

However, with that in said, for an individual interested in let's say improving their Powerlift Squat the program need to include...

Technique Training

This involves

1) Performing Technique Training first in a program or on a sperate day.

2) Performing 1-2 Reps in a Set

3) Performing Technique Training with load of 85% plus in the Movement.

4) Performing the Technique Movement when fully recovered between each Set.

 

[Hung]

That can explain why some bodybuilder has a very good bench, especially compared to their squat or deadlift. Some of them do like flat bench, then Incline, then decline, then dumbbell.(Sure they can do better by spare that along the week)

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

putting in some machine and dumbbell work for aesthetics will give you the look while putting on the strength.

More Than That

This information has been previously covered.

With that in mind, let's go into it.,

Dr, Michael Zourdos' Research

Zourdos determined that Conjugate Training (like Westside) with Hypertrophy, Power and Maximum Strength in the same Training Cycle increase Maximum Strength to a greater degree.

Dr. Brad Schoenfeld's Research

Schoenfeld's research determined the three factors that optimized Hypertrophy were...

Mechanical Tenison, Metabolic Stress and Muscle Damage.

Essentially, this supports Zouros' Maximum Strength research and vise versa.

Summary

Training different types of Strength provide a...

Synergistic Effect

This is like adding 2 plus 2 and getting 5!

It elicits and greater training effect.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Some world class lifters do the big 3 only

Antiquated Method

While this method works, it is out to step with Sport Science.

Pervious information on this forum examined the issues with using let's say the Powerlifts as a means of increasing Strength.

Powerlifter are the few, the only once that I can think of, that do this.

You don't see Pole Vaulter using heavy poles for Repetition Vaults, not Quarterbacks using 3 lb ball or Baseball Pitcher doing that to improve their throws, or Basketball Player using 3 lb ball, etc.

 

[Hung]

Christian Thibadeau has some interesting theory about why some lifters crave (any do better) with variety. It has something to do with the neurotransmitter level

 

[DocMike]

Antiquated Method

While this method works, it is out to step with Sport Science.

Pervious information on this forum examined the issues with using let's say the Powerlifts as a means of increasing Strength.

Powerlifter are the few, the only once that I can think of, that do this.

You don't see Pole Vaulter using heavy poles for Repetition Vaults, not Quarterbacks using 3 lb ball or Baseball Pitcher doing that to improve their throws, or Basketball Player using 3 lb ball, etc.

Again, the point of my post was that many different methods are used by many different people to get results and the method that works for one person may be different from the method that works for another person. And yes, my post was in reference to powerlifters.

 

[Golder]

Interesting thread—
I certainly don’t have the experience and expertise of many folks on this thread, but I like what I’m doing and I’m more than happy with the results.

I’ve been keeping my training “main course” of S&S steady and streamlined, 3 or 4 days a week. This so far keeps my over all strength on a progression I’m happy with.

And on the other days, I give myself variety when I’m craving it, usually in the form of more but different KB work (mostly C&P, squats and Snatches at the moment and some dbl KB works) or mace and heavy club work.
The clubs give me the most variety when I want it, and gives me an outlet for learning new things, which is important to me and keeps my mind feeling sharp.
Plus the “side courses” are helping a ton with rotational strength, durability, and athleticism.

Enough focus to have a plan and see results.
Enough variety to keep me sane, engaged, and focused on consistency.

Also, the SF WOD article linked above is a good read. Thanks for sharing.

 

[silveraw]

Again, the point of my post was that many different methods are used by many different people to get results and the method that works for one person may be different from the method that works for another person. And yes, my post was in reference to powerlifters.

If you look at the training of top strength athletes it is anything but homogenized. Even in Westside's heyday you had Coan and Karwoski being dominate using a completely different system than conjugate.

 

[jozko]

My personal issue with simplicity is not adaptation. I can make progress focusing on 2-3 exercises and varying load/tempo/volume/whatever.

My issue are overuse injuries, and for somebody with desk job and plenty of overtimes this is a thing.

So I always pick 1-2 exercises I want to really improve, do it 1-3 times per week, varying load and variety + I have 2-3 variety days, when I do whatever I think I need.

E.g. currently focusing on double snatch and AB wheel rollout on Monday and Thursday, doing TGUs, single bell OH squats, split squats, rows and bottom ups Sun/Tue/Fri, with various order, volume and intensity, usually not too heavy, optionally skipping a day.

And yes, this idea is stolen from ETK, but my variety days are really diverse. This way I keep focus on what matters + stay more or less overuse-injury-free. I also found 2 days/week is my ideal frequency for vast majority of big exercises.

 

[DocMike]

Yep, hence my post regarding many different systems work