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Kettlebell Sikastan view on kettlebells

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Starlord

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Just watched this video on kettlebells (macebells, club bells and sandbags) and their thoughts/what their interpretation of the literature on kettlebells are.

I am actually very much in agreement with what they say (as those of you who have seen my previous comme will know).

What are your thoughts on using kettlebells for high level SnC?

The Undemocratic Republic of Sikastan on kettlebells.
 
Only a few minutes in and agree with general premis so far, but the fact these implements are not aligned with gravity doesn't really mean they are outside our center of mass. Eg swing a kettlebell. Now take same kettlebell and hold at arms length - that is "outside" center of mass, when its swinging the force is resisted in a line opposite the direction the load is traveling - bracing. Huge difference.

Also, what is "S&C" in an absolute sense? and there are a lot of ways to train with anything. I'd bet a half dozen mortgage payments I could get someone in great shape with a pile of rocks and a stack of logs.
 
Only a few minutes in and agree with general premis so far, but the fact these implements are not aligned with gravity doesn't really mean they are outside our center of mass. Eg swing a kettlebell. Now take same kettlebell and hold at arms length - that is "outside" center of mass, when its swinging the force is resisted in a line opposite the direction the load is traveling - bracing. Huge difference.

Also, what is "S&C" in an absolute sense? and there are a lot of ways to train with anything. I'd bet a half dozen mortgage payments I could get someone in great shape with a pile of rocks and a stack of logs.
Exactly!
 
You asked my thoughts, ye been warned.

First, I think "high level S&C" is too vague in order to talk about whether or not kettlebells are useful for it or not. I immediately interpreted "high level" meaning "professional athlete" or at least "national-caliber competitive athlete." But sport makes a big difference doesn't it? I would say the juice wasn't worth the squeeze to make kettlebells the mainstay of a pro or college football S&C team, but I don't know if I'd say the same for, say, cross country runners.

If we lower the level to, say, high school athletics, while I think kettlebells could provide a sufficient stimulus I would be more concerned about setting up team sport athletes for success in a college program (or getting recruited to a college program). Teaching a high school football player how to properly squat, clean, bench etc. with a barbell is going to set them up better for success than teaching them kettlebells. If they going to move up to a "higher" program that will likely use barbells as the primary training implement then it is part of our job to prepare them for that - and that might be best done by training them with barbells, not kettlebells. (I realize that you said "high level S&C" so maybe this isn't a consideration, but since I've only worked with high school athletes, it is for me.)

Second, we have to establish how strong does an athlete need to be before strength is no longer the limiting factor. Then, we could assess whether that strength was best attained with a barbell or a kettlebell. I know a shot put coach that says that 400lbs bench and a 450lb squat are what you need to throw far (beyond that strength isn't the issue). Are kettlebells going to get them there? Probably not.

Third, we have to identify the ease of teaching the movements. I can teach barbell movements much quicker than I can kettlebells, but that just might be because I'm more experienced with barbells and teaching them.

Breaking down their video, their initial point about the center of mass was completely lost on me. I didn't follow their argument. I also didn't follow their argument about kettlebells beating people up too much because of all the eccentric forces.

They talk that the main point of the strength side of things is progressing weight, used in exercises that go through a full ROM, and that that requires something more easily adjustable than a kettlebell. I understand the benefit of the barbell being loadability, but their argument for it isn't an argument against kettlebells, as one can manipulate volume (sets and reps) as well as density (rest intervals) to progress in strength with kettlebells. A better argument - and one that I firmly stand behind - would be that kettlebells are topped out at much lower poundages - even if super large sized kettlebells were readily available, they become increasingly awkward to deal with in the form of doubles. A 100kg front squat is really no big deal, but a 2x48kg is much more challenging. A 200kg front squat is fairly common, but try doing a double kettlebell front squat with two 100kg kettlebells!

But even in this situation, it is sport- and level-dependent. While an NFL team might not be best-served by using kettlebells for strength purposes, a high school football team might, or possibly even a high level runner, or possibly even a college soccer team. There are lots of sports I don't know well (most winter sports, most track and field sports, etc.), so it is hard for me to say whether kettlebells would be equally suited to barbells. I've worked with high school girls volleyball teams and I think switching to a kettlebell would be fantastic. But again, when working with high school athletes, I want to set them up for success if they go to college, and part of that is teaching them how to use barbells as more than likely the college will.

This could be an argument that gets lost in the weeds, but they are arguing against a particular way of kettlebelling. This is similar to arguing against a particular way of Crossfitting, or even a particular way of strength training. What they describe as kettlebelling - light weights, lots of reps, maybe using a variety of exercise that is challenging with light weight - isn't the entirety of kettlebelling.

They had some other points that I agree with (training with kettlebells one quickly starts to need quite a few, and the cost and size quickly equal that of a bar and plates) and some that I kind of agree with (kettlebells are great for rehab or unilateral exercises) and some I disagree with (what we've always done works why innovate), but fundamentally they say that a good S&C program has a strength component, an anaerobic component, and an aerobic component and there is no disagreement there.
 
I don’t see how this follows?
Again it of course depends upon the training in question. Classical Simple Training only requires 3
I train with KB’s and I have 4; not what I would call quite a few
Yes, I suppose this isn’t a “for sure.” 4kg progressions I like, and that doubles your bells, and doubles I like and that doubles them again. 3 becomes 6, 6 becomes 10, then if you progress past double 32s … I suppose none of that is required, but then I’d really want a barbell, and for 10 bells I could’ve got a pretty nice barbell and bumpers!
 
I don’t see how this follows?
Again it of course depends upon the training in question. Classical Simple Training only requires 3
I train with KB’s and I have 4; not what I would call quite a few
I don't think you are following their point. Which is for high level SnC kettlebells are a useful tool but the barbell is king.

For general exercise they are very useful.
 
I think @North Coast Miller said it well. Rocks and logs can be useful if applied properly. Weight is Weight.

I use kettlebells because I can press them pain free. In my 50s, this is important. I gave up resistance training completely because of shoulder injuries. Kettlebells strengthened my shoulder girdle and pressing overhead became doable again.

Things are relative too... cleaning and pressing and front squatting double beasts would yield a pretty strong physique and athlete.
 
Those guys have their opinion. Do 200 snatches in 10 mins with 24kg and press the beast. There is high level strength and conditioning for life and for most non-lifting sports... just my opinion, but I kinda think even those guys agree with this.
 
I didn't watch the whole video. I agree w. what they've said in the first 1.5 minutes - that kettlebells can be a great addition to, but not a standalone for, high level S&C (i.e. for high level athletes).

That said, it doesn't mean you couldn't do A LOT with just kettlebells (and/or mace bells, sandbags, etc).

If they've said more and I've missed the point, then disregard.
 
... for high level SnC kettlebells are a useful tool but the barbell is king.
Barbell makes it easy and is definitely the safest way to work with the heaviest loads. Training kb, sandbag, etc you'd quickly have to adopt uni leg work and some other sub for DL.

Devil's advocate, guys like Boyle have already booted over to single leg squat variations that don't require barbell, and honestly there is nothing you need barbell for re upper body work. That leaves DL, which is completely replaced by cleans in many S&C programs...

The biggest knock against KB is the amount of skill required to make best and safest use of them, easily the most challenging of all commonly used externally loaded resistance modes.
 
Those guys have their opinion. Do 200 snatches in 10 mins with 24kg and press the beast. There is high level strength and conditioning for life and for most non-lifting sports... just my opinion, but I kinda think even those guys agree with this.
I think you've completely missed understood the point of the video. Which is high level SnC for athletes.
 
Barbell makes it easy and is definitely the safest way to work with the heaviest loads. Training kb, sandbag, etc you'd quickly have to adopt uni leg work and some other sub for DL.

Devil's advocate, guys like Boyle have already booted over to single leg squat variations that don't require barbell, and honestly there is nothing you need barbell for re upper body work. That leaves DL, which is completely replaced by cleans in many S&C programs...

The biggest knock against KB is the amount of skill required to make best and safest use of them, easily the most challenging of all commonly used externally loaded resistance modes.
I disagree on a few points.

Bench Press, there is no kettlebell alternative to really heavy bench pressing. For anyone that has had experience playing rugby for example, the ability to fend someone off with a straight arm. This will just require someone to be as strong as possible in the upper body.

In addition the scrum will require all individuals involved to be as strong as physically possible in the legs and core. The high bar back squat and front squat would be king for this. As the trainee will deal with a higher total load to prepare the body for withstanding the force of an opponents body and then some. As well have them handling the highest load possible.

Some additional things I personally disagree with is the kettlebell being far more complex than the barbell

I beleive one of the most compelling reasons to using a kettbell is how technically easy snatches and Cleans are to perform on a kettlebell. Where as I cannot snatch with a barbell. Thr technique is too demanding.

In addition I feel that VERY heavy swings are a far better replacement for the goblet squat and any amount of unilateral work over the barbell back squat.

Which aligns with what we typically see in high level SnC circles.
 
I don't think you are following their point. Which is for high level SnC kettlebells are a useful tool but the barbell is king.

For general exercise they are very useful.
Just to be clear here… I wasn’t contesting anything at all in the video. I follow their point exactly.
All I commented on was that one didn’t need a whole bunch of KB’s in their arsenal to train.
 
I think you've completely missed understood the point of the video. Which is high level SnC for athletes.
I consider those pretty high stantards also for high level athletes... naturally barbell is must for some sports like power lifters, throwers, nfl etc. But I don't see them must tool for any endurance athlete, ice hockey player, soccer player, swimmer etc... they can use barbell and most propably also use, but does it really make them better in their sports? Could they be as good if they switch barbell to few kbs and pull up bar.. I don't think tool matters.
 
I disagree on a few points.

Bench Press, there is no kettlebell alternative to really heavy bench pressing.
We're talking about more than kettlebells here. I agree100% that kb is deficient re horizontal push, the basic pushup can be loaded with sand, chain etc to provide enough resistance for S&C, easily hitting 350lbs or more depending on the weight of the athlete.



Some additional things I personally disagree with is the kettlebell being far more complex than the barbell
I beleive one of the most compelling reasons to using a kettbell is how technically easy snatches and Cleans are to perform on a kettlebell. Where as I cannot snatch with a barbell. Thr technique is too demanding.

I could have you safely cleaning & snatching with a sandbag in one afternoon, providing the lion's share of benefit no matter what mode it is compared to. Discussion re the finer points of kb snatch is ongoing, even among senior members and instructors on this site.

In addition I feel that VERY heavy swings are a far better replacement for the goblet squat and any amount of unilateral work over the barbell back squat.

Which aligns with what we typically see in high level SnC circles.
We'll have to agree to disagree here, IMHO swings are not an adequate replacement for any deep squat pattern regardless of mode.
 
Juse reread what I typed on the last o
We're talking about more than kettlebells here. I agree100% that kb is deficient re horizontal push, the basic pushup can be loaded with sand, chain etc to provide enough resistance for S&C, easily hitting 350lbs or more depending on the weight of the athlete.
I would argue that if a loaded push up was as effective as a barbell bench press.
I could have you safely cleaning & snatching with a sandbag in one afternoon, providing the lion's share of benefit no matter what mode it is compared to. Discussion re the finer points of kb snatch is ongoing, even among senior members and instructors on this site.
I can sandbag over shoulder an 80kg bag for A&A training (same protocol I use for KB snatches) and I don't think I have the lions share of the benefits for a barbell clean or snatch.

Definitely don't have the same level of explosiveness through the hips that throwers or even rugby players I know that weigh the same as me who can perform the barbell clean and snatches.
We'll have to agree to disagree here, IMHO swings are not an adequate replacement for any deep squat pattern regardless of mode.
I noticed I made typing errors that'll lead to confusion.

I beleive heavy swings to be a better alternative for deadlifts than any amount of goblet squats and unilateral KB leg lifts are for barbell back squats IMO.
 
Juse reread what I typed on the last o

I would argue that if a loaded push up was as effective as a barbell bench press.

I can sandbag over shoulder an 80kg bag for A&A training (same protocol I use for KB snatches) and I don't think I have the lions share of the benefits for a barbell clean or snatch.

Definitely don't have the same level of explosiveness through the hips that throwers or even rugby players I know that weigh the same as me who can perform the barbell clean and snatches.

I noticed I made typing errors that'll lead to confusion.

I beleive heavy swings to be a better alternative for deadlifts than any amount of goblet squats and unilateral KB leg lifts are for barbell back squats IMO.

We'll def have to agree to disagree on several points.

Loaded pushups are equal or superior to bench - full anterior chain activation with a closed chain movement, bench is open chain movement and pairs lower posterior chain activation with a push, something the body will almost never do in a dynamic setting.

Deficit skater squats or BSS loaded with a pair of heavy kbs, dumbbells, sandbags etc are going to provide plenty of leg work and comparable resistance while eliminating lumbar flexion entirely. Also you will almost never execute a bilateral squat in a dynamic setting. Again I'll refer to Boyle, who has explained his rationale better than I can.


In my opinion the only thing barbell owns is heavy back squat and DL. Everything else can be subb'd using other means that (combined with sport specific drills) will provide comparable qualities. We're talking about tension, movement speed, movement mechanics (pretty sure Rip has a concise quote about Oly lifts to that effect). There is nothing magical about ANY individual implement. Additionally barbell forces the hands to align under load in ways the body would never adopt on its own.

Every time the primacy of barbell (or any other mode) come up I am compelled to bring up the '72 Dolphins who trained on Nautilus, not barbell.

If we're talking about traditional KB or Bulgarian bag being a substitute for focused strength training I 100% agree with the video. But with very little fuss these tools can be used for all manner of training. If they're arguing the necessity of barbell for anything, then I flat out disagree.
 
Bench Press, there is no kettlebell alternative to really heavy bench pressing. For anyone that has had experience playing rugby for example, the ability to fend someone off with a straight arm. This will just require someone to be as strong as possible in the upper body.
Here's something I've wondered - how much of these standards are because benching actually carries over to the field, and how much of these are that when someone is capable of a bench of X, that indicates that they have a degree of physical size and strength that is beneficial. If the latter, could other things be used instead of the bench? Is a 400lb bench itself a benefit, or would someone be as capable on the field if they could clean and press double 48kgs for 10? You can nitpick my example, but the general question still stands.
Some additional things I personally disagree with is the kettlebell being far more complex than the barbell

I beleive one of the most compelling reasons to using a kettbell is how technically easy snatches and Cleans are to perform on a kettlebell. Where as I cannot snatch with a barbell. Thr technique is too demanding.
This is interesting. I think KB cleans and snatches are totally different movements and accomplish very different purposes than BB variants. KB variants are "hard" because of the handwork involved, which is taken out of the BB variants; BB variants are "hard" because of the mobility demand, which is largely taken out of the KB variants.
 
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