Kettlebell Singles or double for hypertrophy and strength?

[Tellya]

Great information here, thanks folks.

Kenny - thanks for posting all this, greatly appreciate that. From what you have presented it seems it would be best to do both singles with the 32 and doubles with the 24s.

I have been doing double 24 C & Ps once a week or so over an hour, keeping it fairly easy, never above 4 reps, sometimes using ladders, other times just agiven number of reps per set.

As a test, I thought I'd try to C & P my 32kg today.

It went up both arms fairly easily for a single. I was surprised.

I haven't pressed it in years. Before was around 2008 after I'd done a load of RoP and it went up more easily this time that it did back then.

 

[Kozushi]

Just speaking the way it seems logically, pressing two 24s means you're training your body to handle an overhead load of 48kg. This is more than 32kg but your individual arms are not handling 32, they are handling only 24, and when using doubles your body is handling the strength system differently than with a single. So it would seem that doing double 24s would strengthen your overall body other than your arms themselves to handle the heavier (32 or 48kg) load, which means you're setting a base to progress with heavier singles by training lighter doubles.

But at the end of the proverbial day since it is possible to load much more total weight over your head through doubles or through a barbell, if we're talking about maximum strength training I can't in any way see that pressing a single beats pressing doubles or a bar, which load far more total weight on you. Or, am I missing something here?

Case in point, I can one arm press the 40 (never tried the 48) and I can double press the 32. As a total body effort, there is a lot more happening with the double 32s.

 

[Anna C]

But at the end of the proverbial day since it is possible to load much more total weight over your head through doubles or through a barbell, if we're talking about maximum strength training I can't in any way see that pressing a single beats pressing doubles or a bar, which load far more total weight on you. Or, am I missing something here?

I've been thinking a lot about this, coming off a solid year of barbell training, but currently working on the One Arm Push Up (OAPU) for the SFB.

For maximum full-body strength development, there's no doubt that the heaviest load wins. Therefore, barbell or double kettlebells.

But for specific strength - as one example, to be an arm-wrestler - the skill, and therefore at least some of the strength, must be developed one arm at a time. So the unilateral movement is a mix of skill and strength. As you develop the skill, you develop the strength that you can apply in that skill. (I imagine in judo and other martial arts this is also applicable).

The OAPU is a skill involving not just strength, but leverage and use of the body in a specific way. Of course there's also a skill component for a regular push-up or a bench press, but I think it's safe to say that there is a larger skill component to the OAPU. The skill of finding tension leaks and plugging those leaks so that the strength can be used to accomplish the movement teaches some valuable lessons. Whether those lessons will transfer back to moving heavier loads in the bench press, I'll be interested to find out later this year.

I think there's a lot of similarity in [ OAPU : push-up or bench press ] and [ single-kettlebell press : double kettlebell press ], and all have value in skill and strength development.

 

[Kozushi]

I've been thinking a lot about this, coming off a solid year of barbell training, but currently working on the One Arm Push Up (OAPU) for the SFB.

For maximum full-body strength development, there's no doubt that the heaviest load wins. Therefore, barbell or double kettlebells.

But for specific strength - as one example, to be an arm-wrestler - the skill, and therefore at least some of the strength, must be developed one arm at a time. So the unilateral movement is a mix of skill and strength. As you develop the skill, you develop the strength that you can apply in that skill. (I imagine in judo and other martial arts this is also applicable).

The OAPU is a skill involving not just strength, but leverage and use of the body in a specific way. Of course there's also a skill component for a regular push-up or a bench press, but I think it's safe to say that there is a larger skill component to the OAPU. The skill of finding tension leaks and plugging those leaks so that the strength can be used to accomplish the movement teaches some valuable lessons. Whether those lessons will transfer back to moving heavier loads in the bench press, I'll be interested to find out later this year.

I think there's a lot of similarity in [ OAPU : push-up or bench press ] and [ single-kettlebell press : double kettlebell press ], and all have value in skill and strength development.

Asymmetrical versus symmetrical training is also something I've agonized over ever since starting with S&S 3 years ago. I've always been worried about what strength I'm not getting by not training heavy barbell moves (as a main program) instead of kettlebell swings and the TGU.

After years of talk on these forums and lots of informative posts by people (like yourself) much more qualified than me to treat them, and through experimenting with different moves and seeing their effects on my judo performance, I think things are getting a lot clearer for me, and they are precisely as you put them, namely that while heavy, symmetrical work does indeed grant significantly more strength (overall), the fact they are balanced means that this strength is not so easily applied in chaotic, asymmetrical load environments, and this is more a case of the skill of balance under pressure not being trained than one of simply not having the muscles for it. I see this all the time with judo training partners, several of whom are competitive barbell and power lifters. I find their strength almost never at all a threat, whereas the wiry guys who don't do much with weights but are the type who skamper, jog about, and can do funny gymnastics moves and stuff, these are the guys who are terribly dangerous!

Coming to this realization has helped me reinspire myself for S&S, and to better understand what it is I am developing by doing S&S. 1 handed swings and the (of course one handed) Turkish Getup are enormous challenges to your balance, and so what you're developing through these moves is the skill of applying your strength in a condition of imbalance, which unfortunately for the symmetrical load guys, is more the real situation in regards to applying strength in most sports or in "real life".

So nowadays, instead of thinking I'm just being economical by using a single (40kg) kettlebell for my workouts at home over training heavy barbell moves at the gym, I think I'm doing the best thing possible for my judo at least, if not for athletic performance in general.

To summarize, as I see it now, as you put it so well, it's the attribute of strength-balance that is so brilliantly developed with asymmetrical moves, which for those of us involved in athletic pursuits outside of heavy lifting is together with power production and endurance the most important kind of strength.

 

[Nate]

Asymmetrical versus symmetrical training is also something I've agonized over ever since starting with S&S 3 years ago. I've always been worried about what strength I'm not getting by not training heavy barbell moves (as a main program) instead of kettlebell swings and the TGU.

After years of talk on these forums and lots of informative posts by people (like yourself) much more qualified than me to treat them, and through experimenting with different moves and seeing their effects on my judo performance, I think things are getting a lot clearer for me, and they are precisely as you put them, namely that while heavy, symmetrical work does indeed grant significantly more strength (overall), the fact they are balanced means that this strength is not so easily applied in chaotic, asymmetrical load environments, and this is more a case of the skill of balance under pressure not being trained than one of simply not having the muscles for it. I see this all the time with judo training partners, several of whom are competitive barbell and power lifters. I find their strength almost never at all a threat, whereas the wiry guys who don't do much with weights but are the type who skamper, jog about, and can do funny gymnastics moves and stuff, these are the guys who are terribly dangerous!

Coming to this realization has helped me reinspire myself for S&S, and to better understand what it is I am developing by doing S&S. 1 handed swings and the (of course one handed) Turkish Getup are enormous challenges to your balance, and so what you're developing through these moves is the skill of applying your strength in a condition of imbalance, which unfortunately for the symmetrical load guys, is more the real situation in regards to applying strength in most sports or in "real life".

So nowadays, instead of thinking I'm just being economical by using a single (40kg) kettlebell for my workouts at home over training heavy barbell moves at the gym, I think I'm doing the best thing possible for my judo at least, if not for athletic performance in general.

To summarize, as I see it now, as you put it so well, it's the attribute of strength-balance that is so brilliantly developed with asymmetrical moves, which for those of us involved in athletic pursuits outside of heavy lifting is together with power production and endurance the most important kind of strength.

Agreed. I not only feel healthier and more athletic, but have more transferable / usable strength with heavy single KBs (32+) than when I was much stronger on the barbell lifts. Guess I had a lot of strength leaks...

 

[Kozushi]

Agreed. I not only feel healthier and more athletic, but have more transferable / usable strength with heavy single KBs (32+) than when I was much stronger on the barbell lifts. Guess I had a lot of strength leaks...

At least for me I find power moves like swings and asymmetrical moves like 1h swings and TGUs frankly speaking harder to do than symmetrical slow strength moves, and so yet again we face the sad fact that if you want it you have to work hard for it. Slow, balanced strength doesn't transfer too well to judo, for example. It's powerful, asymmetrical strength that does.

It's funny because when I started S&S I had no idea why nor what I was getting into. Kettlebells just looked interesting, so I blindly dove into the art. Then when I started to understand a bit about exercise science I wavered about whether or not I had made the right investment, and I experimented with other things including some serious bodyweight-only programs (including NW of course) and PTTP and some others. But the funny thing is that at the end of the day, I think my hunch was spot on! Explosive asymmetrical swings and complicated asymmetrical getups is where it's at for the athletic strength I crave.

 

[jhpowers]

One consideration around the OP's question would be what are the implications for the total program. Let's compare two specific pressing programs, the ROP and Kettlebell Strong. The ROP can also include additional exercises other than the single C & P such as pull ups, swings, and snatches. Strong is such a heavy systemic load that it is hard to do much other than clean and press. I've added other exercises (e.g. squats or pull ups) but these drop off as the volume increases. Using single kettlebells allows for more accessory variety and I wonder if this may translate into more hypertrophy and, perhaps, more strength.

 

[Mirek]

What do you guys think about training with asymmetrical double KBs?

Is it so that it

1) brings the best of both worlds

2) or smears them out into bland mix

Thoughts?

 

[Anna C]

What do you guys think about training with asymmetrical double KBs?

Is it so that it

1) brings the best of both worlds

2) or smears them out into bland mix

Thoughts?

Great question! I think it depends on how much you attend to technique, and how heavy the load is (how fast you fatigue). If you do it with extreme attention to maintaining alignment, it can bring the advantage of the singles, and therefore the best of both worlds. But that is hard to do and people get sloppy when fatigued, which can happen with doubles. So what starts as an advantage can rapidly become a disadvantage as the session goes on. Think of someone carrying suitcases a long way through the airport, one heavier than the other. When they start out, they use the torso muscles to maintain good alignment. But as they get tired, the start leaning to the heavier side, which is no good for the back and wouldn't "train" what you would want.

 

[Mirek]

Great question! I think it depends on how much you attend to technique, and how heavy the load is (how fast you fatigue). If you do it with extreme attention to maintaining alignment, it can bring the advantage of the singles, and therefore the best of both worlds. But that is hard to do and people get sloppy when fatigued, which can happen with doubles. So what starts as an advantage can rapidly become a disadvantage as the session goes on. Think of someone carrying suitcases a long way through the airport, one heavier than the other. When they start out, they use the torso muscles to maintain good alignment. But as they get tired, the start leaning to the heavier side, which is no good for the back and wouldn't "train" what you would want.

I agree, this can be somewhat dangerous.

I was thinking that doing even number of not so many sets (<10) with not so many reps (<5)
while changing sides every set with lot of rest might be viable option.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I agree, this can be somewhat dangerous.

I was thinking that doing even number of not so many sets (<10) with not so many reps (<5)
while changing sides every set with lot of rest might be viable option.

How about 2-3 reps with lighter weight to every single rep with the heavier one. A set might be 15 reps light/5 heavy, rest, swap, repeat.

 

[Anna C]

I was thinking that doing even number of not so many sets (<10) with not so many reps (<5)
while changing sides every set with lot of rest might be viable option.

Yes, I would think so! There may be a bit of "smears them out into bland mix" but I think you'll also get some "brings the best of both worlds"

It's probably not seen in programs because it's kind of a weird programming variable, but uneven doubles can a great option for people with a limited set of single sized bells.

 

[Nate]

There's a scientific case that singles are better for strength & hypertrophy for me BECAUSE I SUCK AT DOUBLES!!!!! So there's that factor too......

 

[Mirek]

How about 2-3 reps with lighter weight to every single rep with the heavier one. A set might be 15 reps light/5 heavy, rest, swap, repeat.

Hmmm, so you've got double load for clean but basically only single-like press - when we are talking double clean and press.

 

[Mirek]

Yes, I would think so! There may be a bit of "smears them out into bland mix" but I think you'll also get some "brings the best of both worlds"

It's probably not seen in programs because it's kind of a weird programming variable, but uneven doubles can a great option for people with a limited set of single sized bells.

Yep, only bells I am left with right now is 32 and 40, and I am considering the possibility of doing Kettlebell Strong with this pair.

Only programme I've seen so far that uses mixed doubles is ROTK.