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Sinister carryover to Strength and other attributes

Shavleg

Level 2 Valued Member
Hello,

I can not seem to find any quality study about the topic so maybe I will get the help here,

I am interested about the carryover of Sinister to strength measured by three main powerlifts.

I know that this the program is not solely for the strength but in case I reach sinister, what would be my squat, bench and dead?

How much strength would I have after S&S program completion compared to if I spent time on powerlifting program? 70% of strength I would get from powerlifting? 50?

I was training with 24kg kettlebell for about a year and after I tested myself on barbell, my bench 1RM was about 70KG and deadlift was 95kg.

I am a 1.86cm male with 77-80kg bodyweight range.

Thanks in advance.
 
Shavleg said:
Hello,

I can not seem to find any quality study about the topic so maybe I will get the help here,

I am interested about the carryover of Sinister to strength measured by three main powerlifts.

I know that this the program is not solely for the strength but in case I reach sinister, what would be my squat, bench and dead?

How much strength would I have after S&S program completion compared to if I spent time on powerlifting program? 70% of strength I would get from powerlifting? 50?

I was training with 24kg kettlebell for about a year and after I tested myself on barbell, my bench 1RM was about 70KG and deadlift was 95kg.

I am a 1.86cm male with 77-80kg bodyweight range.

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
No one can say with any degree of certainty. If you want to assess your strength by the "Big 3" then train the powerlifts.
 
I think it depends on your history with the big 3. I mainly powerlifted and or olympic lifted for years prior to S&S. But I switched to sololey using S&S for 4 years and it kept my life time maxes with in reach for several years. Let's say 85%

But if you never had the foundation of those lifts and only did S&S, I assume S&S wouldn't make you strong in those lift but probably not weak either. Competent maybe the right word
 
Interesting points.

Just to clarify my interest, it's not big three that I am after, what I want is what I call a "wrestling strength". the kind of strength that would for example enable you to fireman's carry a person 100lbs heavier than you )). NOTE* I am not a wrestling recreationally or profesionally, I just want that kind of strength ))

I guess that is sort of a functional strength. I have read studies where 1RM big three training had a favorable effect on wrestling performance and I have seen videos of some pro MMA fighters training in powerlifts e.g Jon Jones. Currently I do not have the access to the gym, just kettlebells. I was wondering if such strength is possible to acquire with kettlebell training.

The reason for my question stems from the fact that I found the begining movement of a getup(one where you press the kettlebell away from your body) to be similar to floor press(bench press). so I assumed that if one could do that with 48kg unilaterally, then bilaterally that would mean almost 100kg 10rep max. maybe my thinking is flawed here because of different mechanisms that I am not aware of??
 
Well, I can say that just hitting Timeless Simple was like flipping a switch on the mats. I never got tired and people starting saying, "Man, your're strong as hell."

So Sinister...yeah.

BTW, a one-arm this or that does not typically equate to double that for two arms. The two arm version is usually significantly less than double the one-arm version.
 
Shavleg said:
Interesting points.

Just to clarify my interest, it's not big three that I am after, what I want is what I call a "wrestling strength". the kind of strength that would for example enable you to fireman's carry a person 100lbs heavier than you )). NOTE* I am not a wrestling recreationally or profesionally, I just want that kind of strength ))

I guess that is sort of a functional strength. I have read studies where 1RM big three training had a favorable effect on wrestling performance and I have seen videos of some pro MMA fighters training in powerlifts e.g Jon Jones. Currently I do not have the access to the gym, just kettlebells. I was wondering if such strength is possible to acquire with kettlebell training.

The reason for my question stems from the fact that I found the begining movement of a getup(one where you press the kettlebell away from your body) to be similar to floor press(bench press). so I assumed that if one could do that with 48kg unilaterally, then bilaterally that would mean almost 100kg 10rep max. maybe my thinking is flawed here because of different mechanisms that I am not aware of??
Click to expand...
Yes, I have very little doubt that if you can do 10x10 with 48kg one hand swings that you would be able to deadlift 100kg with minimal training. I do not the same can be said for bench - a 48kg getup I don't think transfers well to a bigger press or bench press.

If you are limited to kettlebells then I would identify what you want and what you can do. I personally have found far more returns from cleans, presses, snatches, and squats than swings and getups. My default would be to train the double clean and press, the double front squat, the single snatch, and the pull-up.
 
Shavleg said:
Interesting points.

Just to clarify my interest, it's not big three that I am after, what I want is what I call a "wrestling strength". the kind of strength that would for example enable you to fireman's carry a person 100lbs heavier than you )). NOTE* I am not a wrestling recreationally or profesionally, I just want that kind of strength ))

I guess that is sort of a functional strength. I have read studies where 1RM big three training had a favorable effect on wrestling performance and I have seen videos of some pro MMA fighters training in powerlifts e.g Jon Jones. Currently I do not have the access to the gym, just kettlebells. I was wondering if such strength is possible to acquire with kettlebell training.

The reason for my question stems from the fact that I found the begining movement of a getup(one where you press the kettlebell away from your body) to be similar to floor press(bench press). so I assumed that if one could do that with 48kg unilaterally, then bilaterally that would mean almost 100kg 10rep max. maybe my thinking is flawed here because of different mechanisms that I am not aware of??
Click to expand...
Hard to compare. Same genus, different species ?
I saw Eddie Hall struggle like hell to do a GU with a 48. Yes, 10 minutes of good coaching and it would have been much different, but still.
I'm guessing if someone capable of Sinister grabbed you, you'd know you'd been grabbed.
 
As I understand it, the kettlebell lifts would be most useful as assistance exercises, providing some variety of stimulus to a powerlifting program.

Keep the main dish the main dish and include sides and seasonings to taste.

They'll help to a point. But they won't save you from training your main lifts, cycling and progressing, etc.
 
Shavleg said:
Interesting points.

Just to clarify my interest, it's not big three that I am after, what I want is what I call a "wrestling strength". the kind of strength that would for example enable you to fireman's carry a person 100lbs heavier than you )). NOTE* I am not a wrestling recreationally or profesionally, I just want that kind of strength ))

I guess that is sort of a functional strength. I have read studies where 1RM big three training had a favorable effect on wrestling performance and I have seen videos of some pro MMA fighters training in powerlifts e.g Jon Jones. Currently I do not have the access to the gym, just kettlebells. I was wondering if such strength is possible to acquire with kettlebell training.

The reason for my question stems from the fact that I found the begining movement of a getup(one where you press the kettlebell away from your body) to be similar to floor press(bench press). so I assumed that if one could do that with 48kg unilaterally, then bilaterally that would mean almost 100kg 10rep max. maybe my thinking is flawed here because of different mechanisms that I am not aware of??
Click to expand...

S&S is phenomenal for grappling. The TGUs train you to maintain tension and the swings will give you wind for days.

However, I recommend you combine it with Aleks Salkins' 9-Minute-Challenge. Once I started training 9MC with heavy movements, people on the mats thought I started deadlifting again because all of a sudden I was effortlessly ripping them off the mats for high-amplitude throws.
 
If fireman carry is the goal, sandbag to shoulder is probably the closest analog. Buy a big iron mind bag that you can fill to 100lbs over your BW.
You kind of need raw strength and the best way to build that raw strength is to bring up your basic barbell lifts.

That said a fireman carry isn’t going to give you wrestler strength. Only one thing will do that. Wrestling.
 
I exclusively train with KBs... I mainly do heavy 1HSW, MP, FSQ, & pull-ups

IMO strong is strong, especially generally speaking... is sinister going to get you world record DL obviously not, but if you go from 32kg swings to 48KG swings your DL will increase as well

About 2 weeks ago I trained with a buddy and he's more into powerlifting type stuff, I haven't touched a BB in about 2yrs & had zero issues hitting 1.5xbwt (275lb) bench press & a little over 2xbwt(380lb) DL
 
I benched 100 kg with only doing Swings & Get Ups and deadlifted 180 @ 80 kg bw. I squated 145, but did a set of 5 prying Goblet squats (swing bell) and then did double front squats for 2 sets of 5 (double swing bell) in the warm-up.

To be fair, I start all my Get Ups with the Floor Press, so you get some volume in with horizontal presses. Further more, I didn't leak any energy while benching, could keep myself super tight because of the get ups.
 
Shavleg said:
I am interested about the carryover of Sinister to strength measured by three main powerlifts.

I know that this the program is not solely for the strength but in case I reach sinister, what would be my squat, bench and dead?

How much strength would I have after S&S program completion compared to if I spent time on powerlifting program? 70% of strength I would get from powerlifting? 50?
Click to expand...

I did S&S in 2014 to Simple, A+A swings and SFG I in 2015, and did Sinister in 2016. Women's Sinister is 32 kg swings and 24 kg get-ups. In 2017 I started barbell training. Even after Sinister, my powerlifts were... beginner. Except my deadlift; it was respectable, at 250 lbs or so. And my overhead press was decently strong from SFG prep and kettlebell pressing, at 85 lbs, not bad for 40-something female.

I worked on barbell strength training (powerlifts S/B/D + overhead press) for all of 2018 and got them all to a strong level, hitting Starting Strength "sticker weights" which are for men a 1RM OH/Bench/Squat/Deadlift of 200/300/400/500 lbs, and for women 100/155/225/315 lbs, in Dec 2018.

So I agree with others that it depends a lot on your previous training, but for me, kettlebell was basically my entry to strength training. Other than nautilus machines, light dumbbells, and push-ups, I had never done any strength training at all prior to 2014. Kettlebells got me moving well, producing significant power from an athletic hip hinge, and able to squat functionally (but not strongly). My overhead press was decent, but my bench press was virtually nil.

Strength training is an interesting mix of two opposing but both true principles:
  • Strength is a general adaptation, applicable to anything with a force production component.
  • Strength is specific. You get strong at what you train.
 
Shavleg said:
I was training with 24kg kettlebell for about a year and after I tested myself on barbell, my bench 1RM was about 70KG and deadlift was 95kg.

I am a 1.86cm male with 77-80kg bodyweight range.
Click to expand...

Achieve Timeless Simple and test BP and DL again. The magic doesn’t begin until you’re swinging a 32. Your BP will go up at least 10 kg and your DL by at least twice that.

-S-
 
Maintained my 5rm for bb dl/bp while dropping some scale weight on my way timed simple. Basically felt like I got the conditioning for free.
 
Shavleg said:
Interesting points.

Just to clarify my interest, it's not big three that I am after, what I want is what I call a "wrestling strength". the kind of strength that would for example enable you to fireman's carry a person 100lbs heavier than you )). NOTE* I am not a wrestling recreationally or profesionally, I just want that kind of strength ))

I guess that is sort of a functional strength. I have read studies where 1RM big three training had a favorable effect on wrestling performance and I have seen videos of some pro MMA fighters training in powerlifts e.g Jon Jones. Currently I do not have the access to the gym, just kettlebells. I was wondering if such strength is possible to acquire with kettlebell training.

The reason for my question stems from the fact that I found the begining movement of a getup(one where you press the kettlebell away from your body) to be similar to floor press(bench press). so I assumed that if one could do that with 48kg unilaterally, then bilaterally that would mean almost 100kg 10rep max. maybe my thinking is flawed here because of different mechanisms that I am not aware of??
Click to expand...
During covid, I was training mostly with kettlebells. I went from weighing about 180 to 200 or 210 when I was able to train jiu-jitsu and wrestle again. I had not trained either for a year. During gi training, I had a tough time with my conditioning mainly due to the fact my body needed to get used to being smashed by someone's bodyweight again. I did feel like I was strong though and was able to wrestle with the heavy weights. I'm an experienced black belt too so that does make some difference as far as being able to dictate the pace of a lot of my training partners.

Due to life and traveling for work, I didn't train jiu jitsu after that 2-3 month period, I had about another 6-9 months away from the mat. I kept training kettlebells and worked on swings, snatches, pressing, front squatting, etc. My pressing strength got me up to being able to do get-ups with the 48. This past year I was on the mats again for some consistent training and I was able to hold my own, my takedowns were far more explosive (which I had to scale back) so I was being that guy who comes in and hurts people going ballistic. But to my surprise, I moved incredibly well, my conditioning was such that I could go an hour without rest. My timing was better than it's ever been, I suspect it's from the coordination and body awareness you need to concentrate on when performing the kb movements properly.

Since training strong first style, I have not spent a whole lot of time doing barbell lifts. I did a couple plan strong cycles that quickly got my deadlift to 460, pendlay row 275, Zercher sq 345, and overhead press to 185 at 210 pounds bodyweight. This year I have been mainly focused on kb work and I'm sure I wouldn't be too far off those numbers or be able to regain them with a cycle or two focusing on them. My goal isn't just numbers for the sake of numbers but it is awesome moving the weight.

I would say at least in terms of any athletic ability you currently own, training with KB's whether it's S&S or any of the StrongFirst programs, you will still have those abilities and will probably be enhanced. I'm not an experienced powerlifter. The experience with the barbell I have has not suffered much by switching to just kb's for some time. In fact, after preparing for my Sfg 1 two years ago, I hadn't deadlifted for 9 months and my deadlift increased about 75 pounds from all the kb work.
 
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personal stats, take it however you wish...
in my mid 30's I hit a PR of a 405 DL. I was training PttP consistently for about a year with some small blocks of other. The last time I repeated that after another brief PttP cycle was when I was 38. A 4 plate DL is nothing special for 210lb man, but I was proud of it all the same.

At the age of 46, I was on a weekend getaway with work. For the fun of it I decided to try a DL test, where I hit 395 easy enough. I didn't try to push my luck, but in my minds eye that 405 was possible. This time I weighed in at 225, same lean mass but a little more around the mid section [siff]. But I hadn't been in a gym for the previous 8 years, just the mats and home workouts with KB's. I had worked my way up to a timeless 40kg S&S (and my 32KG was close to being timed, the swings were at 5:30) over an 18 month period.

As for performance on the mats... S&S at 40+KG is where it's at. All day, every day. Even as an "old man". !!! BUT !!! I am/was behind in some attributes that does affect my performance. The lack of military press, pullups, deep squatting (pistols) left me vulnerable to certain types of competitors. At the moment I'm less concerned about those failings. S&S is well rounded enough that I feel I can bring 'em up in a short period once I start focusing on them.
 
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