Off-Topic Some questions about cardio/endurance

[offwidth]

HIIT and LISS trigger nearly identical adaptive responses. Both increase mitochondrial and capillary density, stroke volume, left ventricle hypertrophy, enzymatic profile etc.

LISS increases capillary density to a greater extent, HIIT improves qualitative aerobic glycolysis to a greater extent. These factors are probably the biggest difference between the two adaptive responses.

Both improve aerobic output of the same hardware using fats or carbs but they approach it from different signalling pathways.

HIIT can anchor or create modest cardio fitness and improve aerobic glycolysis in all but the best conditioned athletes. LISS operates with a considerably more distant horizon. One could almost certainly work up to a half marathon using only HIIT, but my guess is that would be about the limit (I did come across story of a man who did a full marathon using only HIIT- his time was somewhat poor and his feet hurt terribly, but he finished).

Compare that to the output of people who do 6-8hrs minimum LISS per week for whom a half marathon is not a challenge assuming their LISS is running. If they get their LISS biking, they might not do any better on a marathon than the HIIT trainee.

Half and even full marathons are really just entry level when it comes to serious locomotive endurance…

 

[offwidth]

The protocol Attia uses for Zone 5 seems to be quite a bit longer max effort than that.

3 mins of zone 2
1 min at VO2 Max

Repeat for 20-30 min

(groan, although it's close to what I do for rowing)

The UA folks also look at Z5 being trained in 30sec to 1min intervals…

 

[North Coast Miller]

Half and even full marathons are really just entry level when it comes to serious locomotive endurance…

For some of us…

But that part of my statement stands - when it comes to serious locomotive endurance you also need to train whatever mode is being used. Aerobic capacity (capability?) becomes intimately linked to the means used to acquire it. As with non-specific strength challenge, a lot of it just won’t translate.

 

[watchnerd]

The UA folks also look at Z5 being trained in 30sec to 1min intervals…

What is UA?

 

[watchnerd]

LISS increases capillary density to a greater extent, HIIT improves qualitative aerobic glycolysis to a greater extent. These factors are probably the biggest difference between the two adaptive responses.

That difference in capillary and glycolytic adaptations over a 2K race can be pretty important, though.

But for general health -- maybe not.

 

[offwidth]

What is UA?

Uphill Athlete

 

[Stephen B.]

Can't answer the highly demanding conditioning schedule question without more specifics.

It could be helpful or harmful depending on how close you are to over-training.

The context for me is wrestling and wrestling training. A wrestling match is 6 minutes, split into 3x 2 minute rounds, and there's generally up to 4 matches in a tournament. Wrestling practice is a 2+ hour affair, full of active drilling, live wrestling, and sprinting and calisthenics (often as punishment). It's hard to get more specific than that, because It's hard to quantify all the work done and the time spent, and it all changes day to day, week to week.

For overtraining, I'm honestly not sure where I stand.

HIIT and LISS trigger nearly identical adaptive responses. Both increase mitochondrial and capillary density, stroke volume, left ventricle hypertrophy, enzymatic profile etc.

LISS increases capillary density to a greater extent, HIIT improves qualitative aerobic glycolysis to a greater extent. These factors are probably the biggest difference between the two adaptive responses.

Both improve aerobic output of the same hardware using fats or carbs but they approach it from different signalling pathways.

HIIT can anchor or create modest cardio fitness and improve aerobic glycolysis in all but the best conditioned athletes. LISS operates with a considerably more distant horizon. One could almost certainly work up to a half marathon using only HIIT, but my guess is that would be about the limit (I did come across story of a man who did a full marathon using only HIIT- his time was somewhat poor and his feet hurt terribly, but he finished).

Compare that to the output of people who do 6-8hrs minimum LISS per week for whom a half marathon is not a challenge assuming their LISS is running. If they get their LISS biking, they might not do any better on a marathon than the HIIT trainee.

It seems like the adaptations for each modality are relatively similar, the difference being that HIIT would prepare me better for an intense match, while LISS produces excellent base adaptations at a lower cost. Both are probably severely limited by specificity, as you mentioned. I think the answer would to my question must be yes, as the adaptations are similar, and the difference in duration and muscle involvement between the two modalities doesn't concern me.

I've been pondering what extra conditioning I should do, but now it seems that wrestling practice is pretty complete. I'm not seeing what 30 minutes on the bike has that 30 minutes of active drilling doesn't. I think I will practice recovering from maximal sprint efforts though, probably sets of 10-20 KB swings, practicing emergency recovery breathing between efforts. Kettlebell swings are probably as close to wrestling as it gets without actually wrestling, and I need to practice recovery.

 

[watchnerd]

The context for me is wrestling and wrestling training. A wrestling match is 6 minutes, split into 3x 2 minute rounds, and there's generally up to 4 matches in a tournament. Wrestling practice is a 2+ hour affair, full of active drilling, live wrestling, and sprinting and calisthenics (often as punishment). It's hard to get more specific than that, because It's hard to quantify all the work done and the time spent, and it all changes day to day, week to week.

I would do what your coaches tell you.

Sounds like there is already a lot of conditioning built-in to the programming.

If they want you to rest on the days you're not practicing, I would listen to them, instead of randos on the StrongFirst forum like us.

 

[TimothyGander]

I'm not really sure what that means.

There have been published papers on the mitochondrial adaptations that LISS drives for many years now.

But power repeats with kettlebells (according to Pavel) do it as well, or nearly as well, or even better, while being far more efficient.

So the point of disagreement isn't whether LISS drives mitochondrial adaptations at all. The point is what kind of adaptations should be a priority for GPP endurance training in the first place (Pavel says mitochondrial, traditional view is cardiovascular). If you agree with Pavel both on mitochondrial adaptations and on power repeats being a sufficient way to develop these, then it follows that power repeats should be your choice.

In other words: if I can get all I need from several short kettlebell workouts done at home, why

 

[Adachi]

But power repeats with kettlebells (according to Pavel) do it as well, or nearly as well, or even better, while being far more efficient.

So the point of disagreement isn't whether LISS drives mitochondrial adaptations at all. The point is what kind of adaptations should be a priority for GPP endurance training in the first place (Pavel says mitochondrial, traditional view is cardiovascular). If you agree with Pavel both on mitochondrial adaptations and on power repeats being a sufficient way to develop these, then it follows that power repeats should be your choice.

In other words: if I can get all I need from several short kettlebell workouts done at home, why

To clarify:

mitochondrial development in Fast Fibers is what a protocol like Q&D will emphasize.​

mitochondrial development in Slow Fibers is emphasized in so-called low-intensity steady-state exercise.​

​

I will say - I could be wrong - one of the effects I seem to be observing is the energetic processes being augmented.
my current cardio practice of stepping onto a curb for about a half hour seems to augment the following variables.

increased stroke volume from the heart
increased energetic substrate distribution (staged for future work)

This seems to result in slightly increased snatch performance and slightly decreased recovery times between sets.

 

[watchnerd]

The point is what kind of adaptations should be a priority for GPP endurance training in the first place (Pavel says mitochondrial, traditional view is cardiovascular).

If you listen to Inigo San Milan, he is also saying that the mitochondrial adaptations of slow fibers are the essential component -- he doesn't tout cardiovascular adaptations, either.

To drive this, the data indicates you need to spend 30+ minutes below the lactate threshold doing "whatever."

It doesn't matter if that's biking, running, rowing, stair climbing, cross country skiing, swimming, etc.

The tool isn't important.

 

[watchnerd]

To clarify:

mitochondrial development in Fast Fibers is what a protocol like Q&D will emphasize.​

mitochondrial development in Slow Fibers is emphasized in so-called low-intensity steady-state exercise.​

An important distinction.

Fast fiber is also what Zone 5 is trying to do.

 

[watchnerd]

In other words: if I can get all I need from several short kettlebell workouts done at home, why

You're not getting slow fiber adaptations from short workouts.

If one wants to say slow fiber adaptations don't matter to you, okay.

 

[pet']

Hello,

If you listen to Inigo San Milan, he is also saying that the mitochondrial adaptations of slow fibers are the essential component -- he doesn't tout cardiovascular adaptations, either.

To drive this, the data indicates you need to spend 30+ minutes below the lactate threshold doing "whatever."

It doesn't matter if that's biking, running, rowing, stair climbing, cross country skiing, swimming, etc.

The tool isn't important.

+1 to this.

Before I start running, I used to do a lot of jumping rope, up to 1h straight. When I first started running, my legs gave up way before my heart and lungs. It was mainly a "technical issue" then. However, as far as just walking or rucking were concerned, it worked well.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[North Coast Miller]

You're not getting slow fiber adaptations from short workouts.

If one wants to say slow fiber adaptations don't matter to you, okay.

Devil’s advocate, the research says otherwise. It indicates a pretty close 1:1 slow to fast improvement in capillary and mitochondrial density. LISS done at a Mafetone level does not seem to improve mitochondria near fast twitch, although it obviously does a better job with slow twitch.

This being HIIT. SIT is not as effective in this regard (slow twitch architecture remodelling) although it does have measurable effect.

 

[watchnerd]

Devil’s advocate, the research says otherwise. It indicates a pretty close 1:1 slow to fast improvement in capillary and mitochondrial density. LISS done at a Mafetone level does not seem to improve mitochondria near fast twitch, although it obviously does a better job with slow twitch.

This being HIIT. SIT is not as effective in this regard (slow twitch architecture remodelling) although it does have measurable effect.

Link to said research?

Everything I've read / heard says the mitochondrial adaptation was dominated by the fiber being used.

Which would make evolutionary sense.

 

[offwidth]

Again from TFTUA…

Zone: Muscle Fiber Recruitment: Training Method:
5 All ST and all FT Interval 8 - 60 sec
4 All ST and most FT Interval 30sec - 8min
3 All ST and some FT Interval 10-20min, continuous to 60min
2 Most ST Continuous 30 - 90min
1 ST Continuous 30min to several hours
Recovery ST Continuous 20 - 60min

 

[ali]

Taking the view of Inigo San Milan that time spent in zone 2 allows for a greater base as long as some higher intensity is introduced to make use of lactate to signal mitochondria biogenesis. Continue that process and there is a tipping point where mitochondria resembles that of a pre diabetic....clearly endurance to excess is unhealthy, the health/performance event horizon.

An issue with base building....differentiate between efficiency of the movement and that of efficient mitochondria...the outcome is the same: Less fuel for the same work but is it guided by the the physics of the movement or more efficient mitochondria....or both? How much carbon can a single mitochondria produce most efficiently? There is a limit. Expanded by having more, certainly, or not needed so much if you use leverage, gravity and elasticity to promote greater efficiency. Very difficult to unbake that particular cake.

 

[watchnerd]

An issue with base building....differentiate between efficiency of the movement and that of efficient mitochondria...the outcome is the same: Less fuel for the same work but is it guided by the the physics of the movement or more efficient mitochondria....or both? How much carbon can a single mitochondria produce most efficiently? There is a limit. Expanded by having more, certainly, or not needed so much if you use leverage, gravity and elasticity to promote greater efficiency. Very difficult to unbake that particular cake.

Difficult to unpack, but also probably irrelevant if you're doing all of this for health outcomes, as opposed to winning the Tour de France.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Link to said research?

Everything I've read / heard says the mitochondrial adaptation was dominated by the fiber being used.

Which would make evolutionary sense.

“ We conclude that short-term HIIT in previously inactive women similarly increases markers of capillary density and mitochondrial content in type I and type II fibers."

Skeletal muscle fiber-type-specific changes in markers of capillary and mitochondrial content after low-volume interval training in overweight women - PubMed

High-intensity interval training (HIIT) enhances skeletal muscle oxygen delivery and utilization but data are limited regarding fiber-specific adaptations in humans. We examined the effect of 18 sessions of HIIT (10 × 60-sec cycling intervals at ~90% HR_max , interspersed by 60-sec of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This one identified increases in muscle oxidative capacity to be one of the most consistent responses to HIIT. Glucose utilization decreases, fat utilization increases. Theoretically this could be 100% from mitochondrial density, but if so its also helping type 1 fibers. Metabolic Adaptations to Short-term High-Intensity Interval ... : Exercise and Sport Sciences Reviews

"Training significantly increased the proportion of type I and decreased type IIb fibers, the proportion of type IIa remained unchanged.”

Human skeletal muscle fiber type alteration with high-intensity intermittent training - European Journal of Applied Physiology

The response of muscle fiber type proportions and fiber areas to 15 weeks of strenuous high-intensity intermittent training was investigated in twenty-four carefully ascertained sedentary (14 women and 10 men) and 10 control (4 women and 6 men) subjects. The supervised training program consisted...

link.springer.com

There is a bit more out there, but not a good idea to include animal studies.