Barbell Squat help

[Hung]

I still have a hard time understand the pulling part.

I pull the bar hard to my traps using my lats, forearms and arms. That is on the upper body. But the lower body part is hard to understand.

This is accomplished by sitting into your hip flexors and tightening them on the way down like doing a hanging knee raise (but think more like a sprinter doing high knee drills as in a proper HLR, your lower back should round)

My depth is lower than parallel, if my hip flexors get tight during the descent wouldn't it harm my lift?

start at 0:18


I try to get tighter after your recommendations. Not sure about the breathing and shoes.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

I still have a hard time understand the pulling part.

I pull the bar hard to my traps using my lats, forearms and arms. That is on the upper body. But the lower body part is hard to understand.

My depth is lower than parallel, if my hip flexors get tight during the descent wouldn't it harm my lift?

start at 0:18


I try to get tighter after your recommendations. Not sure about the breathing and shoes.

That video doesn’t seem to work. Here’s a description of what I mean

Controlling Gravity for Better Squats, Deadlifts, and Presses | StrongFirst

What goes up must come down. Ignore the eccentric portion of lifts at your peril. Without this technique, gravity is bossing you around.

www.strongfirst.com

CT supplies some data in this article, although it refers to the bench, the same rules apply

Tip: The 6-Second Trick for a Bigger Bench Press

A fast, easy, and scientifically-backed way to increase force production on the bench press. Check it out.

www.t-nation.com

As for the bend the bar around the back cue, @Anna C said it best, like a behind the neck pull down, in the sense that you want your lats, the largest muscles of your upper body, engaged along with the entire midsection (lower back, obliques, abs) filled with air like a balloon.

Tension comes before speed in a heavy lift but Pavel in DD says the trick is to do the movement as tight as possible, as fast as possible. Oly lifters, who squat with the bar bending around their backs, squat daily, squat heavy and squat fast. But the technique takes time to drill in perfection by doing the movement slowly and gradually increasing speed over time. Only a professional can explode like a bat outta hell while staying extremely tight. (If you ever seen Olympic lifters starting out, they’ll even practice the snatch, an extremely powerful lift, slowly in the beginning to drill the technique. Same goes for any complex movement, regardless of how fast it “should” be performed).

 

[Steve Freides]

What happens with the advice "Don't try to copy the form of the pros?"

As already stated by @Timo Keskitalo, we were discussing copying the pro's training, not form. It is instructive to watch good lifters lift.

Also, Tian Tao and I are in same height, but he weights 26 kg more than me. I would feel strange if my form looks like his.

My suggestion to you is that you keep everything you're doing and trying to do but lower the bar on your back. You'll very likely move the most weight that way.

We don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water here - a front squat and a high bar back squat and a low bar back squat exist on a continuum in a number of ways, and one of those ways is the torso's verticality or lack thereof. I posted the video because it looks like you are attempting to use a low-bar approach in terms of hips and torso angle with a high bar placement.

For your current bar placement, I would put on Olympic shoes and try to stay more vertical. But as I said above, if your goal is to move a lot of weight, the low-bar back squat is the way to go for most people and that is my recommendation to you - keep what you're doing, just carry the bar lower.

-S-

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I don't know. I think it looks really good except for the wonkiness at the beginning and the other things I mentioned previously. The back angle stays constant thoughout.

As far as the pulling the bar into you - I don't know either. 'Spread the chest' is an old but good cue that I think will get what they're suggesting to you. 'Back double biceps pose' might do it too. Cues are important, but cues aren't the same as technique. If the cue moves you to better technique then it's a good cue, if not move on.

 

[Hung]

I posted the video because it looks like you are attempting to use a low-bar approach in terms of hips and torso angle with a high bar placement.

This seems interesting. Never in my life I attempt to do a low-bar squat. A few months ago my squat was very upright and my quad did most of the work, so some strong guys on forums recommend me to use my glute more. So I did: I now think of push my hips up and push the shins back during my squat.

So what is different between low-bar squat and high-bar squat in terms of technique, besides bar placement? Steve, in your description, high bar squat seems like a heavy hack squat.

I would like to hear opinions of you guys, especially from peoples who train for Olympic lifting, who plays Powerlift and who had done both (like Anna?)

 

[Timo Keskitalo]

my quad did most of the work, so some strong guys on forums recommend me to use my glute more. So I did: I now think of push my hips up and push the shins back during my squat.

I'm not those guys, but that's how you should be able to lift more. You shorten the moment arm between knee and center of gravity. The back, hips and glutes together are stronger than thighs. Usually when this is done you should have more inclined back angle and the bar lower to keep COG in right place.

While you're "sitting back the squat" you should still "push your back against the bar", not "hips up" when you squat up. However I don't see any big failure in form, only the beginning like others have said. At least the shifting of knees forward is not that bad anymore. I'm probably mistaken about COG being above heel, a video straight from side could tell.

So if there isn't any visible signs of your form breaking, you just stop, and then give up; then you are just not strong enough to come up from bottom with that technique. You can keep your technique if you want, but you have to be stronger at the bottom.

Many times ankle mobility says that you have to have weightlifting shoes with narrow stance. Lifters with flat or no shoes usually have wider stance. Wider stance allows to sit back more.

 

[Anna C]

I agree with @Timo Keskitalo

I think your high bar squat form is correct as far as back angle and leg movement. I'm looking at the FB video at the top of this page.

You could do low bar if you want to, and might move more weight that way, but it would take a while to work back up because it's essentially a different exercise and movement pattern that you would need to train before you load it heavy. So it just depends on what your objectives are. Low bar involves and strengthens the muscles around the hip a little more, and legs a little less, relative to high bar -- but they both use and strengthen all the same muscles, it's just a slightly different emphasis. With low bar you'd be leaned over more on the way down, at the bottom, and on the way up. (I have a few more differences between my low bar squat and high bar squat, but most of these come specifically from the Starting Strength style that I use for low bar: I put my thumb over the bar instead of wrapped under it, the bar is under the spine of the scapula, I don't pull down on the bar, I take a bigger breath and move a little slower overall, I keep my gaze on the floor a few feet in front of me instead of looking up/forward, I shove the knees out, I stay really tight at the bottom of the squat, I shove the hips up (though back angle stays the same) to come up, I take a breath between each rep.) For both kinds of squat, I brace the abs hard and keep the back stiff. My stance is currently about the same for both.

 

[Oscar]

There is something about high bar squat being barefoot that I just dont like.

In my mind, high bar back squat and front squat require a vertical torso. Then, a vertical torso requires a very pronounced shin angle (ie the knees very forward). In order to achieve this you need weightlifting shoes that have high heels. If you look at Tian Tao´s video, he uses weightlifting shoes for the high bar squat, even though he has great ankle dorsiflexion as the pro he is. The shin angle is very pronounced and maybe not achievable being barefoot:



Low bar back squats OTOH dont require a pronounced shin angle, therefore are more friendly to do barefoot, like deadlifts are.

To me, low bar back squats and deadlifts are acceptable without shoes. High bar back squats and front squats are not. Take this with a grain of salt since I´m not very experienced with barbell training, but I´m just obsessed with mechanics.

 

[Steve Freides]

To me, low bar back squats and deadlifts are acceptable without shoes. High bar back squats and front squats are not. Take this with a grain of salt since I´m not very experienced with barbell training, but I´m just obsessed with mechanics.

My personal practice and preferences agree with yours, @Oscar: kettlebell squats in bare feet or socks, front squats and high bar back squats in Olympic lifting shoes, low bar back squats in Converse Allstars.

-S-

 

[Hardartery]

Your form and breathing both look fine. You failed in your head, you jumped out from under the fail and didn't grind. If you aren't willing to grind on a max, don't max. Work more triples. Also, you failed as the hamstrings pick up the load from the groin/adductors. Do some hamstring work, a lot of it. You are leaning forward to load onto the quads, and that's may not be conscious but it's not an accident.

 

[Hung]

Do some hamstring work, a lot of it

Yes, my hamstring need more focus

You are leaning forward to load onto the quads, and that's may not be conscious but it's not an accident.

Not sure about that. I lean forward probably to get balance when I use my hips to drive me up. And also I want to do Olympic squat, so should the quad should be loaded the most?

 

[Anna C]

The video angle might lie a bit, it seems that the weight is a bit more on the heel than mid foot.

Pulling the bar in your back muscles help. On breat, watching the video below recently helped me. Your form seems to have improved, I don't see much of that knees falling forward. Maybe better power balance now? Finally, you need to be stronger. Special exercises. I feel that Anderson SQ has helped with the bottom part of lift.

This was interesting, thanks. I like the way he explains the relationship of the diaphragm to the pelvic floor and creating that 360 degree pressure. StrongFirst calls this the canister, or cylinder, I can't ever remember which one ? (I think it's cylinder)

 

[Hardartery]

Yes, my hamstring need more focus


Not sure about that. I lean forward probably to get balance when I use my hips to drive me up. And also I want to do Olympic squat, so should the quad should be loaded the most?

The load should be fairly even, although the push is off of the ball of the foot. The elevated heel of a lifting shoe helps even out the force. A low bar squat is very posterior chain heavy if done correctly. I don't think that your lean is bad, it's pretty decent given the lack of heel and your limb lengths, but I can see by where you stick on the successful lifts that you are fighting to maintain form through your weak points. You do well with it. It just takes reps to build up and for your weak points to catch up to your strengths. You have potential for a fair amount of increase just based on the weak points catching the strong ones right now.

 

[Hung]

There is something about high bar squat being barefoot that I just dont like.

In my mind, high bar back squat and front squat require a vertical torso. Then, a vertical torso requires a very pronounced shin angle (ie the knees very forward). In order to achieve this you need weightlifting shoes that have high heels. If you look at Tian Tao´s video, he uses weightlifting shoes for the high bar squat, even though he has great ankle dorsiflexion as the pro he is. The shin angle is very pronounced and maybe not achievable being barefoot:

View attachment 11979

Low bar back squats OTOH dont require a pronounced shin angle, therefore are more friendly to do barefoot, like deadlifts are.

To me, low bar back squats and deadlifts are acceptable without shoes. High bar back squats and front squats are not. Take this with a grain of salt since I´m not very experienced with barbell training, but I´m just obsessed with mechanics.

Hmmm, not sure the example is right. Most of the clips on ATG about Chinese weightlifters are at the competition. Why should they squat heavyweight without shoes - which is not optimal for their performance at their competitions?

But still, I have pondered about the ankles and the depth/vertical of the lift. I agree that I need better ankle mobility or shoes with heels. Shoes are not an option right now (cheap shoes = 10 months gym membership). So is there any drill that I can use to improve my ankle mobility so I can squat deep with high bar more effectively?

 

[Oscar]

Hmmm, not sure the example is right. Most of the clips on ATG about Chinese weightlifters are at the competition. Why should they squat heavyweight without shoes - which is not optimal for their performance at their competitions?

But still, I have pondered about the ankles and the depth/vertical of the lift. I agree that I need better ankle mobility or shoes with heels. Shoes are not an option right now (cheap shoes = 10 months gym membership). So is there any drill that I can use to improve my ankle mobility so I can squat deep with high bar more effectively?

Well, I´m no expert, but your ankle dorsiflexion seems to be pretty good already. The point of my post is that even olympic level weightlifters, with the great ankle mobility they have, need shoes for a good high bar squat. So its not a matter of improving your dorsiflexion, its a matter that the exercise needs the tool.

I really dont know any way around it. Maybe you can consider a wooden wedge or an inclined platform, with an angle similar to weightlifting shoes, but you should be careful as tripping with a bar on your back is no fun. Or you could switch to low bar. I´ll leave this to people more experienced with the barbell.

BTW, I come from a 3rd world country as well, and fully understand that weightlifting shoes might cost a month of average salary over here. Many times I have to work around things as well, not having access to the most sophisticated tools. Some things are not even available on the market over here, and Amazon doesnt even deliver due to custom restrictions. At least we get to exercise our minds trying to work around it!

 

[Starlord]

A couple of things to help give you more power out of the hole in the squat.

Let me preface by saying that your glutes are more than strong enough. Your problem is technical in nature. Not muscular. A lot of people aren't very good at driving aggressively with their glutes.

1, heavy kettlebell swings. Yoh can't do a swing without that powerful, aggressive snap of the glutes. Do a lot of these and make that snapping glute activation second nature.

2, vertical/box jumps. Same as the swings except you involve a lot more quad. Mimicks the squat more but you are moving higher on the force velocity curve. Again, drill that violent gluge activation.

During the squat an additional que you will be considering is violently activating your glutes. Once this clicks in your head do not be surprised if your 1RM increases by 20kg.

 

[watchnerd]

To me, low bar back squats and deadlifts are acceptable without shoes. High bar back squats and front squats are not. Take this with a grain of salt since I´m not very experienced with barbell training, but I´m just obsessed with mechanics.

With a barbell, I only FSQ and HBSQ with my lifting shoes on because I only C&J with lifting shoes on.

I do KB FSQ barefoot, though.

 

[watchnerd]

So is there any drill that I can use to improve my ankle mobility so I can squat deep with high bar more effectively?

I hate these. They feel icky.

But they do wonders for me.

 

[Hung]

I hate these. They feel icky.

But they do wonders for me.

I just try. It's harder than it look.
This channel has many great videos

 

[watchnerd]

I just try. It's harder than it look.
This channel has many great videos

Yes!

And if I don't do them regularly (like 3 times a week), they just stay hard....