watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I’ve heard some S&C coaches say they prefer field sport athletes just use ‘basic technique’ on a flat bench because the objective is to develop upper body strength, generally, not get really good at benching
Barbell Stronger or not?
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I’ve heard some S&C coaches say they prefer field sport athletes just use ‘basic technique’ on a flat bench because the objective is to develop upper body strength, generally, not get really good at benching
the hansenator
Level 6 Valued Member
I think it has to go back to how you define strength and how you agree to test it.
It’s been mentioned already but my thoughts keep going to - a technique adjustment might allow you to lift more weight in that lift, even if your muscles aren’t exerting any more force. And that technique adjustment might or might not have carryover to other actions.
It’s been mentioned already but my thoughts keep going to - a technique adjustment might allow you to lift more weight in that lift, even if your muscles aren’t exerting any more force. And that technique adjustment might or might not have carryover to other actions.
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
I've heard this described as "don't major in the minors".
On an unrelated note, the free PDF StrongFirst hands out for joining the email list is tips to increase your strength today. I think this falls into the same sort of thing as it is a list of how to improve your technique quickly. Personally if something helps you lift more, I think it falls into the classification of making you stronger. I know if my Zercher squat goes up, the Husafell stone is a lot easier to carry because the techniques carry over pretty well.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
TIL a new word!
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
The magic word, "outcome."
I've seen this notion among trainers whose content I like. Unless someone is at a fairly advanced level, or need some super specific position for their sport (since benching IS part of the sport in powerlifting), they shouldn't worry so much about all the nerdy details. Just make sure that over time the numbers on the bar or whatever are generally going up.
As to the discussion. I love these kinds of discussions; the ones that get into the "what's and why's." In a video maybe a couple weeks old Ivan Djuric was ranting about "contortionists in powerliftng." He was taking issue with the fact that in powerlifting (depending on the rules, I suppose) you can contort yourself into some crazy high bridge and bench the bar like 2 inches and call it a bench press. That may be an exaggeration (though I have seen a video like that...) but that's something wildly different than laying flat on the bench and pressing the weight.
The arched bencher may have had a significantly higher number on the bar, but that's kind of like "squatting" and staying well above parallel and calling it a squat. I'd love to hear from those of you hear who live more in the PL world.
Djuric is on this whole thing now about learning about Olympic weightlifting, and was expressing that he felt it was more "pure" or something than PL simply because there's a lot less room for changing your form to accomplish the goal. Obviously there's some nuance there as well.
Hulk said the word "outcome." I think that's key. If the outcome is "number higher," then it seems like more deviations from some kind of standard are possible.
I think an interesting sport to bring into this is strongman. I don't know a ton about it, but I have heard Brain Alsruhe talk a fair bit about it. The way he describes the overhead press in strongman is lot more like "however you can get it up." He also has recounted stories of competitions where competitors don't even know the exact events there will be at a meet or whatever. I think that's an interesting idea. A sport where you might be deadlifting, or you might be tasked with carrying some crazy heavy sandbag or dragging a truck something.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
This is a different thing entirely. Obviously if you, for example, start squatting high as hell, you're going to be able to "squat" more. Shaving ROM off of a lift is changing the metric - changing the lift is different than actually learning how to do the exercise correctly.
Someone else mentioned equipped lifting - this is also a different thing. If you throw on a bench shirt and bench more, you aren't stronger - you've changed the goal posts. Now, if you start growing your numbers w. the shirt over time, then YES you've gotten stronger - regardless of whether your unequipped bench has improved or not (though it wil most likely, unless you were a great raw bencher to begin with).
Well, Ivan hasn't competed in either OL or PL so, while he's not completely wrong, I think he's really oversimplifying things. I respect Ivan but yeah...
Strongman is very technical, especially overhead events. He may have been referring to that most competitions have "press" events but it is a "get it overhead" not a strict press the way a lot of people would understand it - it is perfectly legal to jerk or push press or bent press.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
That sounds like the kind of thing newbie weightlifters say.
There is a *lot* of room to change form in weightlifting -- the simple variance in jerk styles (split vs power vs squat) alone accounts for that.
You'll see the upper age limit of Masters lifters using archaic techniques like split snatches, and some brute strong super heavies practically doing muscle cleans on opening attempts.
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
I find it interesting, the note on Olympic lifting being more pure. When you look back at very old video’s of oly lifting from say Paul Anderson, Grimek, era where lifters had barely any technique (or what we know of as today), you see very built bodies basically muscling up the bars…very little refined movements. This was an era of non-rotating bars, chalkless, crappy belt, non heeled, iron plate Olympic lifting. I can’t imagine today’s lifters lifting under these circumstances. We’re very pampered in this day and age.
This is why I think strength and technique need be separate. Imagine the bench press, if no arch was allowed and the feet were held in the air. Despite their records being surpassed, 70’s and 80’s lifters would murder modern lifters. However, the conditions have changed.
Oly lifters pull the bar three feet lower than their early predecessors and can drop their bums to the floor to catch it. Pure strength, as I like to imagine it, isn’t so much needed. It still is…but not to the sane degree.
We live in an age of 10 inch bench arches, plate to plate sumo stances and a lifter who squats without knee sleeves will find himself alone in his weight class (me this Saturday).
As humans, our greatest adavances to our breed have come from our brains and the mastery of our environment through technology. Comparatively, our max strength is of lesser importance. Their are fifty million deadlift belt, shoes, wrist wraps, bench designs with fat pads and adjustable rack heights to optimize this and that and all of them are meant to enhance a lifters technique or ability to lift more weight. Can you imagine a modern lifter using the obsolete equipment of old?
Perhaps a lifters greatest/worst asset is their brain. While we’ve discovered more optimal ways to align our body to complete certain tasks, there is a cost to specificity. The days of old, pure brute strength may be dying, which might be a good thing…often a ‘fearless, blind rage, no time to think of adverse consequences’ lifter will ride like lightning and crash like thunder, while the timid yet calculated, slow progressing lifter can train and improve for decades and avoid career ending injuries or the dark road of PED abuse.
This is in no way meant to take away from modern lifting but to show that in order to succeed in modern lifting, I feel there is a difference between lifting the most possible weight, and being overall strong.
I should say that barbell strength often has great carryover to certain things. But their is a point of diminishing returns. As someone mentioned earlier, would lifting more weight in the bench with a powerlifting high arch technique make you hit harder/sprint faster? Or pulling a heavy sumo stance make you lick harder?
When you start optimizing your technique for a certain task, you have to take your resources of time and energy from another. It is the cost. Being strong at one thing may make you weaker at others, which is fine, for a specialist.
It is amusing to watch Larry Wheels arm wrestle much smaller guys,,,and get owned.
The great white shark may rule the ocean but put it on land….
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Some of this had to do with refinement and analysis as to what 'worked' and was most efficient.
And equipment changes.
But a lot of it had to do with the removal of the press as a competition lift after 1972.
As study was done: When the press was still a competition lift, about 40% of weightlifting practice time was spent practicing the press. Which left less time for for technique refinement on the SN & C&J. By the 1980s, less than 10% of practice time was spent on the press. Leaving far more training time to specialize in the two remaining biathlon lifts.
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
The best presses weren't that far from the best jerks. On the day Alexeyev made the biggest Olympic press in history, he also made the jerk WR for a kilo more.
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
First off, I like weightlifting. However, I find it odd that it's brought up in this light.
To me, it seems that Djuric, whoever he is, should have a thorough look how high the weightlifters actually lift the bar. If you compare a weightlifter to any strong boy or girl who tries to clean the bar, the difference isn't that much in ROM, it's how fast and how low the lifter gets under the bar, if at all.
So to point it out compared to a good bench press arch sounds iffy to me.
Every competitive powerlifter tries to get their bench arch as good as possible. Every weightlifter tries to catch as low and fast as possible. Some people are more suited to the task than others.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
i agree w. a lot of your points, but there are modern lifters that would dominate in any age - Scot Mendelson (bench presser) and Lasha (OLer) come to mind.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
He's the YouTuber who was v-logging his "squat every day" approach to get to 300 kg squat.
As of now, he hasn't reached 300 kg, and I believe he may have given up on squatting every day. Or at least is considering it.
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My perspective:
I am often asked why I don't wear a belt when I powerlift because it would enable me to lift more weight. "Lift more weight" would be an accurate description. Would being able to lift more weight make a person stronger? I think it's not an unreasonable argument to make - if my wrists can't handle a heavier bench press than my legs, and I can use more weight in training using wrist wraps, then I can subject my legs to a greater training weight and make them stronger. The process won't have made my wrists stronger, of course, so the strength improvements will be specific, and the gear address weaknesses that are difficult-to-impossible to address solely through training, which is to say that just about everyone will lift more with wrist wraps or a belt and knee sleeves.
Another example - when I deadlift, it's largely a back exercise for me. When I focus on pushing with my legs, I can deadlift more. Has this change in technique made my back stronger? No, and perhaps it's even made my back weaker because I won't have to take as long to finish the lift, but it will have made my legs, the weak point in my deadlifts, stronger.
We could go on debating this forever and likely will from time to time, I suppose. I don't see much point in that. One picks a goal, to achieve a certain outcome under certain conditions and in certain circumstances, and one pursues that goal.
Far be it from me to say that a belted deadlift isn't a worthy goal, it's just not mine. Since my federation/division allows me to wear a belt and knee sleeves, and the lifting is competitive, I expect always to be an outlier when it comes to lifting without a belt and without knee sleeves, but that's my choice, made for reasons I've explained many times to many people in many places, and everyone seems fine with my choice to lift less weight than I could.
-S-
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
He's still going strong on the everyday thing. I do admire his commitment to his ethos.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
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