all posts post new thread

Barbell Stronger or not?

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Pete L

Pete L

Level 6 Valued Member
I've been reflecting on the @John K post below and from the articles I've read on strongerbyscience ... basically optimising levers to lift more weight.

Barbell - Squats: Width, Back or Down, Hi/Lo Bar

Past few months I've read a couple interesting articles on squats. I thought some of you might enjoy them. I've shared some of my thoughts to go with the articles, but please understand that they are MY thoughts, not Greg's. I've also tried to be neutral with the article titles to prevent any...
www.strongfirst.com

If you optimise your bar path and lift posture to handle a higher load... have you got stronger?
 
Pete L said:
I've been reflecting on the @John K post below and from the articles I've read on strongerbyscience ... basically optimising levers to lift more weight.

Barbell - Squats: Width, Back or Down, Hi/Lo Bar

Past few months I've read a couple interesting articles on squats. I thought some of you might enjoy them. I've shared some of my thoughts to go with the articles, but please understand that they are MY thoughts, not Greg's. I've also tried to be neutral with the article titles to prevent any...
www.strongfirst.com

If you optimise your bar path and lift posture to handle a higher load... have you got stronger?
Click to expand...

Depends what you're optimizing for.

If you're a powerlifter, and low bar lets you lift more, that difference matters.

If you're weightlifter, squat isn't a competition lift, so picking a version (e.g. low bar) that lets you lift more weight isn't a priority.
 
It all depends on how you define strength. If you put skill into the equation, then you have got stronger. If you exclude skill and see it in terms of muscle then there is no change in strength. From point of view of performance, you have got stronger if you can execute the task with more weight ie assuming weight is a factor in performance. From point of view of health, it depends. Health and longevity may be unaffected. Or, if the change in bar path (in this case) reduces the risk of injury then your health and longevity have improved ie you have got stronger in that sense.
 
Pete L said:
I've been reflecting on the @John K post below and from the articles I've read on strongerbyscience ... basically optimising levers to lift more weight.

Barbell - Squats: Width, Back or Down, Hi/Lo Bar

Past few months I've read a couple interesting articles on squats. I thought some of you might enjoy them. I've shared some of my thoughts to go with the articles, but please understand that they are MY thoughts, not Greg's. I've also tried to be neutral with the article titles to prevent any...
www.strongfirst.com

If you optimise your bar path and lift posture to handle a higher load... have you got stronger?
Click to expand...
The world will be a much more complicated place if we say someone lifting more weight isn’t stronger. That’s like saying someone who runs the marathon quicker (eg wearing new shoes) isn’t faster.
 
LukeV said:
The world will be a much more complicated place if we say someone lifting more weight isn’t stronger. That’s like saying someone who runs the marathon quicker (eg wearing new shoes) isn’t faster.
Click to expand...
Exactly. If someone actually learns how to do a barbell snatch or C&J proficiently and can lift more weight, they are stronger. Period. It's interesting because there's some weird idea that technical proficiency isn't strength, but if a runner gets some coaching and improves their time we don't question it at all - everyone agrees they got faster.
As we are fond of saying around here "Strength is a skill."
 
Last edited:
LukeV said:
The world will be a much more complicated place if we say someone lifting more weight isn’t stronger. That’s like saying someone who runs the marathon quicker (eg wearing new shoes) isn’t faster.
Click to expand...
IDK, that's like saying someone on a modern touring bike is faster than someone who competed 35 years ago based only on their time. Put them on the hardware of the day and we'll see.

In the context of lifting weights, but outside the context of competitive lifting, I'd have to say they really aren't stronger if the only difference was technique. The muscles are generating the same amount of force (or less), and tested against an untrained dissimilar movement pattern there will be zero improvement.
 
Pete L said:
If you optimise your bar path and lift posture to handle a higher load... have you got stronger?
Click to expand...
Too many undefined things in the question. You could define the lift you're measuring by rules, and then anything that raises the weight counts as increased strength. And even then, supposed you switched to squatting in shoes with a raised heel and could move more weight that way - is that really any different than switching from knee sleeves to knee wraps?

IMO, each of us defines strength for ourselves.

If you compete, your federation does it for you.

Bar path is one variable, lift posture is another, finding a new cue to think about is another, and so on.

-S-
 
North Coast Miller said:
IDK, that's like saying someone on a modern touring bike is faster than someone who competed 35 years ago based only on their time. Put them on the hardware of the day and we'll see.

In the context of lifting weights, but outside the context of competitive lifting, I'd have to say they really aren't stronger if the only difference was technique. The muscles are generating the same amount of force (or less), and tested against an untrained dissimilar movement pattern there will be zero improvement.
Click to expand...
Maxwell used to say that a lot. Some of the strongest guys on the jiu jitsu mat, don't lift weights at all. They just have freakishly strong mat strength.
 
Boris Bachmann said:
Exactly. If someone actually learns how to do a barbell snatch or C&J proficiently and can lift more weight, they are stronger. Period. It's interesting because there's some weird idea that technical proficiency isn't strength, but if a runner gets some coaching and improves their time we don't question it at all - everyone agrees they got faster.
As we are fond of saying around here "Strength is a skill."
Click to expand...

Rippetoe has been roasted several times for implying that (American) weightlifters aren't strong enough and spend too much time on technical proficiency instead of cranking up their deadlift numbers:

 
“There’s a difference between lifting more weight and getting stronger”. Arthur B Jones

This quote has popped up in Pavel’s material. If someone pushes up their arch and cuts 5 inches off their bench press and lifts ten more pounds have they gotten stronger? In a way, I suppose…

I recently watched a competition of an Olympic lifter doing a clean and OH Press (jerk) competition with Thor. Thor basically flung the weight up to his shoulders and presses it overhead with very little ’finesse’.

The Olympic lifter, lifting the same weight, full cleaned it perfectly, and like a lifter on the platform, dropped into a picture perfect jerk before rising. For what it’s worth, it looked like Thor went through a lot less trouble, even though his technique was…what it was.

Sometimes I think strength is demonstrating by those who have relatively poor technique and somehow still loft monstrous weights…for if they learned to really hone in on perfect technique, they could really be on top. These folks tend to be strong in many things as opposed to just their pet lifts.

I also believe strength takes a long time to build, while technique can, and should be, constantly and immediately improved on at all times. Watching Olympic lifters and powerlifters warmup makes the latter obvious. The mental checklist seems extensive at high class levels.

But it all depends on how you define strength I suppose.
 
watchnerd said:
Rippetoe has been roasted several times for implying that (American) weightlifters aren't strong enough and spend too much time on technical proficiency instead of cranking up their deadlift numbers:
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think he's flat out said so many times. I mean, it doesn't take a genius to look at athletics in the US and figure out that almost all of our potential Olympic weightlifting world record holders spent their youths playing football, not honing their C&J or snatch... Seriously.

edit: On a somewhat related to this (but not the original post) note, the US generally dominates swimming and does okay in volleyball, but can you imagine how invincible they'd be if athletes chose these instead of basketball?
 
watchnerd said:
Rippetoe has been roasted several times for implying that (American) weightlifters aren't strong enough and spend too much time on technical proficiency instead of cranking up their deadlift numbers:

Click to expand...


This is the StrongFirst forum, where "we don't say you're wrong, just that we know we're right." This video is one person telling another person they're wrong, and the person they're saying is wrong is being called wrong because he says other people are wrong. There are lots of these things out there. Speaking for myself, I don't need to be reminded of them here. Speaking for StrongFirst, I prefer we not to give a platform to them. It's not news, it's not new, and I don't think we accomplish anything by rehashing their arguments.

-S-
 
Pete L said:
I've been reflecting on the @John K post below and from the articles I've read on strongerbyscience ... basically optimising levers to lift more weight.

Barbell - Squats: Width, Back or Down, Hi/Lo Bar

Past few months I've read a couple interesting articles on squats. I thought some of you might enjoy them. I've shared some of my thoughts to go with the articles, but please understand that they are MY thoughts, not Greg's. I've also tried to be neutral with the article titles to prevent any...
www.strongfirst.com

If you optimise your bar path and lift posture to handle a higher load... have you got stronger?
Click to expand...
We clearly want to optimize technique - it is more efficient to express strength, but often it is a better way to train as well, and it might be safer. Optimizing levers I don't think matters unless we are engaging in some form of competition - but understanding levers can help us understand why some techniques are better. I think a bigger question is what are you trying to accomplish and then go from there.

Zercher vs. front vs. high bar vs. low bar squat - it doesn't matter that you can use more weight with one than another unless we are competing to move the most weight or we know one has more carryover to whatever we are really interested in.

Joe De Franco loves the zercher for his athletes, Paul Carter hates it for his bodybuilders. Both completely understand why the other feels the way they do. It is about the effect garnered, not the weight used or the leverages optimized. Paul doesn't dislike it because it uses less weight or has poorer leverages, but because it isn't as effective at stimulating hypertrophy. Joe likes it because of the sport carryover he sees in his athletes.
 
Pete L said:
If you optimise your bar path and lift posture to handle a higher load... have you got stronger?
Click to expand...

1. Strength is a general adaptation. There are lots of ways to build it.

2. The ability to display strength -- performance -- is specific to a task or movement.

While both 1 & 2 are important, 2 is much easier to objectively measure. So we tend to define "got stronger" with specific tasks. I would argue it's quite possible to increase 1 without necessarily increasing 2. 2 takes focus and practice. 1 you can feel, even if you never "prove" it with 2.
 
I believe you need to consider how specific the adaptation/optimization is. For example, if I were to increase my bench press by learning how to pack my shoulders, I would definitely have got stronger overall as this new skill would have an application in almost any movement I could do. However, if I'd learn how to create a gigantic arch in my back in other to shorten the ROM, it would be just an optimization relevant to the bench only and I wouldn't get "overall" stronger.

So I propose there's a spectrum between technique improvements, with the universally applicable one on the other side and one-lift tricks on the other. The more a given optimization is on the former side, the more it can be considered an actual improvement in overall strength.
 
TimothyGander said:
I believe you need to consider how specific the adaptation/optimization is. For example, if I were to increase my bench press by learning how to pack my shoulders, I would definitely have got stronger overall as this new skill would have an application in almost any movement I could do. However, if I'd learn how to create a gigantic arch in my back in other to shorten the ROM, it would be just an optimization relevant to the bench only and I wouldn't get "overall" stronger.

So I propose there's a spectrum between technique improvements, with the universally applicable one on the other side and one-lift tricks on the other. The more a given optimization is on the former side, the more it can be considered an actual improvement in overall strength.
Click to expand...

When it comes to the barbell squat (the original question), I think most of the variances are in this category.

Strong squatters are strong squatters -- they just might be better / more practiced at one version or another.
 
As others have said in different ways, you have to define the desired outcomes.

Suppose you're a baseball pitcher. You don't increase the output of your muscles, but a technique fix adds 5mph to your fast ball. Did you throw faster?

Suppose you're a sprinter. Without any increase in leg power, a stride correction takes 0.2s off your 100m time. Did you get faster?

In these cases, the answer is obvious - because there is a clearly defined goal. If we define stronger as simply moving more weight - which is a fair definition- then hell yes a technique adjustment can make you stronger.

If your desired outcome is something less direct- like, perhaps increasing your vertical jump - then maybe that technique adjustment isn't really buying you anything.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom