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Other/Mixed StrongFirst in the military

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Steve Rogers

Steve Rogers

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As some of you may know I have been trying to get back in the military and have specifically chosen a Special Operations route. During my pursuit of this I have began adopting the StrongFirst philosophy and methods in preparing for the physical aspects of these selection courses. I also began pursuing general knowledge of the SOF lifestyle and other information on another website with verified Special Operations personnel to increase my learning.

During this time I managed to spark a debate - or rather I mentioned my StrongFirst way of doing things: Simple and Sinister, crawling and long slow distance runs to build a base for 6-12 months and then more specific selection training for several weeks before entering the military. And was met with....questioning and resistance. Most of which I took to be negative

Their argument was: Why not train specifically all the time for selection or even after selection on a team for deployment? They argued that you didn’t have the luxury of a season. You could always be called up and therefore had to always be ready. My response was that in my past military experience I burned out physically trying to maintain a 100% workout philosphy and that I believed that would happen in a SOF unit or any unit.

I know some of you were in the military or in SOF yourselves. Where am I wrong and what are some personal things you discovered or are discovering about how StrongFirst does or does not fit in with your military lifestyle?
 
Steve Rogers said:
As some of you may know I have been trying to get back in the military and have specifically chosen a Special Operations route. During my pursuit of this I have began adopting the StrongFirst philosophy and methods in preparing for the physical aspects of these selection courses. I also began pursuing general knowledge of the SOF lifestyle and other information on another website with verified Special Operations personnel to increase my learning.

During this time I managed to spark a debate - or rather I mentioned my StrongFirst way of doing things: Simple and Sinister, crawling and long slow distance runs to build a base for 6-12 months and then more specific selection training for several weeks before entering the military. And was met with....questioning and resistance. Most of which I took to be negative

Their argument was: Why not train specifically all the time for selection or even after selection on a team for deployment? They argued that you didn’t have the luxury of a season. You could always be called up and therefore had to always be ready. My response was that in my past military experience I burned out physically trying to maintain a 100% workout philosphy and that I believed that would happen in a SOF unit or any unit.

I know some of you were in the military or in SOF yourselves. Where am I wrong and what are some personal things you discovered or are discovering about how StrongFirst does or does not fit in with your military lifestyle?
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I spent 28 years in the Navy and discovered S&S and ROP around 2014 and found both programs worked great for my military life style. I can't speak for an SOF unit however I did several deployments to Iraq in the early 2000 when cross fit was all the rage, and to an extent, still is with a lot of those units. Programs that have you running at high intensity I think are favored by the SOF community as it blends in with the whole go hard life style, at least at a younger age. The older guys I have noticed tend to slow things down as injuries/wear and tear builds up. I work on a base in Virginia that is home to four SEAL teams and five EOD units so until recently I watched this pretty much daily.

I think you can run S&S or ROP and include a bunch of rucking, running and swimming depending on the service you are looking at. Swimming would provide a nice cardio session and take stress off the joints a few days a week. @Al Ciampa is the person to get the best information on this as he lived the life. Going all out as a test to yourself every now and then I think can work, consistant hard work for me is where its really at.
 
Hello,

In this thread, RoP and S&S are mentioned as good GPP programs:

Kettlebell - RoP & OCR

Hello, @Pavel Macek , @Al Ciampa A while ago, I stumbled accross this article on SF blog, written by Eric Frohardt: https://www.strongfirst.com/what-the-hell/ On Youtube, I also found the following video (here, the first 8 minutes relates to kettlebell training): To sum everything up a...
www.strongfirst.com

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I'm not, nor even, been in the military so I won't comment on that part.

I will comment on the fact that "base building" is not cool or sexy so it won't be in the thoughts of the common person. In the today's world of "if you don't sweat it wasn't worth it" and "go hard or die"
 
@Steve Rogers you are on the right path. Do understand that there is a difference between fitness for selection and fitness for the everyday work. Going into selection being to max out (or close to it) the basic fitness tests should be your goal, however, having a solid strength and conditioning base is absolutely necessary. That is what will carry you through the entirety of the selection process.

After that, that strength and conditioning base will makeup the majority of your fitness plan, incorporating unit specific requirements like swimming, rucking, etc., as required. As for the need to always be ready, I personally never had a need to run three miles in full kit in the same time frame I did for the annual fitness tests. Did I need significant endurance and the ability execute mission tasks for prolonged periods, absolutely. Even when I actually had to run around a city raiding buildings, e were not doing it at a six minute mile pace, a nice steady jog.

A well planned and executed GPP program like many of the StrongFirst plans is absolutely appropriate. But, this is based on my twenty years, your experience and needs may differ.
 
Great responses guys! Thanks for your input.

I reached out to Al Ciampa and he directed me to building LSD runs to 60 minutes and kettlebell swings (10 or less as many sets until 60 minutes is reached) as my base. During this base phase for 6-12 months or longer I would “taste” selection or military standards: pushups, pullups, rucking, etc. These taste sessions would be rare. If I was to add anything during my base training it was maybe some rucking once a week or so with light weight but higher times spent under a load.

That’s as far as I got.

I understand the CrossFit “go hard” culture and the military’s embrace of it. I would lead multiple CrossFit workouts myself because I just didn’t know any better and took what was passed on to me as gospel. I’m also older now and have moved into injury prevention during training. My entire plan going into the military this time has been injury prevention and body resiliency.
 
Even units are not at full readiness all the time. Brigades are on red, yellow, green cycles. Why would we expect a single human to be green all the time.

Your plan follows Crawl, Walk, Run, nothing wrong there.

You don’t want to live in your fighting stance - Flexible Steel
 
Could not agree more.

@Bunn those “taste” sessions are when I throttle up to 90% or more.

Also, I’m assuming that I do that after my 6-12 months of base training I’m supposed to throttle up to near 100% training. 2 a days, 3 a days and more intense exercises and tempo.

Although we here in the StrongFirst community think that less is better, how would you substantiate that argument? Is there any medical or other evidence to back up our claims?
 
@Steve Rogers Al’s recommendations seem spot on, I would trust and follow that advice.

Less is better: it sure is, in the grand scheme of things. However, SOF selection still requires a peaking phase of sorts, if you can’t even get to the point of qualifying to try and qualify, whatever program you followed is for nothing. Everything has a balance, and the minimalist approach is, in my opinion and experience, the best. And, there are different levels of “less”.

Medical evidence: I don’t have anything anymore (purged upon retirement), but I can tell you that just about every US SOF unit made big changes to their fitness programs over the last couple of decades (Selection still a different animal), they went away from all out all the time, super METCON type programs to much more reasoned and researched programs. The result, far fewer injuries, more resilience in the operator and better overall performance. Something else to consider, folks looking in from the outside have a different view of what ”all out” programs look like. What could be considered super human efforts by some, is just Tuesday to others.
 
I definitely agree with you on having to peak specifically for a selection or specific mission set (mountaineering, finning in the ocean, patrolling). Before StrongFirst while I was in the Marines I tried out for their reconnaissance course. It was basically a selection course for Marines to enter an elite unit. My own unit had it's own selection course that mirrored the recon course. There was a TON of 100% level exercises and tempo. My body began hitting a wall because I crushed it before getting to the intense selection. Although it never broke physically (no injuries or rhabdo) it was extremely fatigued. To the point that I was just tired all the time and found myself starting to place last on all events as an NCO. I couldn't figure out why. At this point I had gone through almost a year of 100% physically and mentally demanding training. My mind was able to push, but my body wasn't able to. This had gone beyond the typical "your body is stronger than you think it is" mentality. I literally could not push myself physically any further.

Then I found StrongFirst and some military guys on this site and began to try S&S. I noticed the results nearly right away. After about 2 weeks of consistent or near consistent training I had more energy, strength and conditioning than I had in a long time.
 
Steve Rogers said:
Could not agree more.

@Bunn those “taste” sessions are when I throttle up to 90% or more.

Also, I’m assuming that I do that after my 6-12 months of base training I’m supposed to throttle up to near 100% training. 2 a days, 3 a days and more intense exercises and tempo.

Although we here in the StrongFirst community think that less is better, how would you substantiate that argument? Is there any medical or other evidence to back up our claims?
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The less is better as far as intensity is spot on. As Al said, test from time to time, don't make it a lifestyle. His advice on LSD work and A&A work is spot on. Adding pull ups and push ups to round things out to cover down on a few gaps and you should be good to go.
 
  1. There absolutely is an off-season. Every unit has an ops board that allocates teams to missions and deployments well in advance to the time of 18-24 months. That said, I've switched teams and only had two weeks before a deployment.
  2. Less intensity isn't better, less volume of intensity is better. The desired adaptations are still developed by training at the correct intensity level. Recovery and injury is effected by the accumulation of volume. There is a segregation between endurance and stamina. Stamina being the trait of maintaining high intensity and the ability to go harder, longer, with less rest between efforts. Just like a strength program, training stamina can be increasing the number of sets, reducing the rest, or increasing the intensity. Just don't do all three progressions at the same time because the body doesn't adapt that way.
  3. Not sure what SOF board you're on but I don't know many active SOF guys that participate in SOF forums. Usually it's guys trying to connect with their buddies (that aren't on Facebook for some reason) from when they were in or guys that never really were. The rest are usually similar to yourself that are there to learn and prepare. A lot of the advice is likely from a different time before units for legit strength and conditioning coaches and equipment facilities.
  4. Selections are completely different than daily operations (deployed or not). The body can accumulate the volume of intensity for a few weeks or even months of the selection and the lead up to. All my buddies, every one, that had kept it up for years, falls apart completely at some point. Those that don't is because their level of training is less than their ability. Guys like me had/have to be at redline just to keep up. Some have incredible fitness levels built up over years of sports, etc. that they're effectively training at 70-80% rather than 100%.
  5. You don't have to do a metcon every workout but you also need to get off the park bench and get on the bus, just not the express bus.
  6. Lift barbells, ruck, and do Q&D of whatever high intensity exercise floats your boat. Crawling and S&S are warmups, very necessary warmups.
 
Good points @Bro Mo - especially your point about less intensity not being better. I have to remind myself not to swing the pendulum too far the other direction. Too much intensity over too long a duration = break down or injury. But too little intensity and I won't make it to the club.

Trust me the SOF board has active duty SF, SEALs, Rangers, etc. Some of the regular military guys like myself are the ones pushing back on my training methods.

I should be clear both here and on the SOF forum that this is only a base plan for now. Running and Swings will be the foundation from which I start ramping up and peaking for Selection. If I haven't made that clear by now I apologize and I will make sure to clear that up on the SOF board as well.

It sounds like what happened to your buddies happened to me. I just got back from deployment and was thrown right into BRC after about 2 weeks. I went through the pool phase, washed out, trained at stupid high levels and went back through pool phase again. Made it through Amphib phase all the way to the last week of Patrol phase and then washed out again. Trained at stupid high levels for a month and then jumped right into the first week of Patrol phase. That first week I had an 8 mile ruck run and I missed it by 30 seconds. I could feel my body hitting a wall about that time. I made it through the whole month of Patrol and was dropped my last day. I went back to my unit and they pushed me out on their own Patrol phase. After that we had our own Amphib phase and then my body crashed. We were doing basic pool PT and land PT and it was just crushing me. I needed a break. It took me almost a year to recover from that.

I never understood what 70-80% effort was like in the Marines. I was always at 100%. Turns out that was stupid and now I'm trying to work at no higher than 90% efficiency.
 
@Steve Rogers - I second what has been said by others. Firstly - good on you for following through with your goal - I wish you every success!


# Build the base and learn 'your gears' i.e. what does it feel like to work at 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90/ 100% effort? - and stick more so in the 50-80% range.

The self discipline of building a big base will serve you long after passing your selection course.

In the book, "Tactical Barbell conditioning" the author discusses similar points that are being raised here - I recommend you spend $5 and get a copy. I've re-read it about 15 times. Everything in it gels with what I've seen from StrongFirst.

I was in the reserve army and went through some challenging selection courses. If I'd built a big base, correctly, at lower intensity it would have helped me 'enjoy' the courses quite a lot more and made me more resilient overall.

Like the famous endurance coach Arthur Lydiard said, " You can go too fast, but you can never go too slowly to develop cardiac efficiency”.

And I'm guessing you'll be wanting some of that ;)
 
I took the liberty of looking in our SF Members Database (optional participation) and this is the breakdown of members with Military or LEO experience.

(actual numbers not %)

SF MIL_LEO.png
 
Selections of all kinds are designed to weed out those that won't break. Break physically or mentally. There is value in training very hard for prolonged periods and days on end because it trains you mentally to go hard even after you can't go hard anymore. To go to the gym and train when you're so sore it hurts to move. The internal masochist driving a person to overtraining is the same trait that makes them a good teammate.

Doing burpee ladders 1-20, or 400x 8-count body builders, or 1,000 calf raises isn't about training the body, there are better ways for that. It's important to structure training that trains both. Those testing days need to not only see where you're at but who you are.
 
Yea I agree 100%. Where would you recommend that "bullet proof Friday" session is thrown into either a base or peak training plan?

I'm thinking either every two or three weeks pick one day where I throw on a heavy ruck and grind it out for 3 hours, or do a MARSOC short card and then a PFT. Or do a 3-5 hour pool thrash session. The problem with putting it in a base training or peaking session is the body might not be ready for it. It's a lot like taking someone learning to crawl and having them sprint - something bad is bound to happen.

I've done 400 eight counts after losing my map during land nav after two weeks of finding points and it was just the mental game. However, I noticed it took away from my endurance and started the process of me hitting that wall. I've also done the coffee filter test where the cadre crank the heat up to 90+ degrees and make you workout until your sweat drenches the coffee filter. Unfortunately I didn't drink much water that day and after 20 straight minutes I only had 2 drops - they stopped me before I went down as a heat casualty because I wouldn't quit.

So even though I've done that stuff and I agree it is necessary for preparing your mind for combat and the intense nature of these jobs - I am wondering do you think there is a StrongFirst way to approach this?
 
Here is another question along with that:

CrossFit seems to nail the mental endurance side of things. It is possibly why a lot of military personnel have embraced it. However we all know on this board that it isn't the smartest way to go about training. Is there a way to combine both? How would you do that? For example - watch the Netflix Dubai Crossfit episode. Those guys and girls have that 100% never quit mentality which is needed and loved in the military. But they also are injuring themselves constantly. In our profession we can't afford that.
 
Steve Rogers said:
Yea I agree 100%. Where would you recommend that "bullet proof Friday" session is thrown into either a base or peak training plan?

I'm thinking either every two or three weeks pick one day where I throw on a heavy ruck and grind it out for 3 hours, or do a MARSOC short card and then a PFT. Or do a 3-5 hour pool thrash session. The problem with putting it in a base training or peaking session is the body might not be ready for it. It's a lot like taking someone learning to crawl and having them sprint - something bad is bound to happen.

I've done 400 eight counts after losing my map during land nav after two weeks of finding points and it was just the mental game. However, I noticed it took away from my endurance and started the process of me hitting that wall. I've also done the coffee filter test where the cadre crank the heat up to 90+ degrees and make you workout until your sweat drenches the coffee filter. Unfortunately I didn't drink much water that day and after 20 straight minutes I only had 2 drops - they stopped me before I went down as a heat casualty because I wouldn't quit.

So even though I've done that stuff and I agree it is necessary for preparing your mind for combat and the intense nature of these jobs - I am wondering do you think there is a StrongFirst way to approach this?
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I like the idea of the MARSOC short card, the longer version is good as well. Maybe once a month or so. I miss being in the Riverine unit I was in, land Nav was a blast!
 
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