Barbell Testing 1RM on multiple lifts
- Thread starter Anna C
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Manuel Fortin
Level 6 Valued Member
@Anna C, great work. Coincidentally, I gave 531 another chance recently. I had made little progress on it a few years ago, but I figured that maybe my technique had improved and that would get me better results. Also, I injured badly a finger in my right hand in February and was off anything requiring a grip for 6 weeks. While the hand healed, I did OHP (barbell, I could not clean a kettlebell) and back squat exclusively, 3 times a week. This gave me the taste of getting back to these lifts.
In any case, over my 4 first cycles of 531, the lift that progressed the most was the back squat also. I went from 2X215 about 1 inch too high to doing 12X210 with proper depth. Coincidentally, this was the lift in which the top set included the most reps. I see that this is the case for you also. The squat progressed the most, and your heaviest top set was 9 reps. That would confirm what @krg said: 531 may be a bit too low volume for some. That is if your training max is too high. To add volume, I also do sets of 5 FSL. For now I do 3 sets only, but it is getting comfortable and may go up to 5 soon. After noticing the same pattern with improvement you noticed, I reset all training maxes so that I get around 10 reps on the top set on in the 3 week. That means that I may get 12-15 reps on the 5 week and 8-10 reps on the 531 week. We'll see if that helps. For example, on Monday I did 3+3+12+3X5 = 33 reps of squat, excluding warmups. Assistance was 1HSW and I do front squats as assistance another day of the week. Not really 531 by the book, but it seems to be working.
Shahaf Levin
Level 5 Valued Member
@Anna C , Congrats on your PRs!
Since you consider other formats, I really enjoy my journey with Justa's singles for strength work (I actually trying a power work variant at the moment). I tried various strategies and all left me fresh and strong. He has two strategies for 3 lifts (aimed at powerlifting), one for daily practice and one for every other day, I am sure both can be tweaked for 4 lifts if you want to include MP.
Since you consider other formats, I really enjoy my journey with Justa's singles for strength work (I actually trying a power work variant at the moment). I tried various strategies and all left me fresh and strong. He has two strategies for 3 lifts (aimed at powerlifting), one for daily practice and one for every other day, I am sure both can be tweaked for 4 lifts if you want to include MP.
Thank you @Jared_G_85 @aciampa @Harald Motz @damogari @Antti @Manuel Fortin @Shahaf Levin !
@Manuel Fortin That is very interesting, and I think you're onto something. You might see some things in my spreadsheet analysis that match what you're saying. My 3rd set numbers are in red, and I multiplied out the weights of them and ran the totals to see some interesting trends. One thing I think I see there is that I would have been better off not to skip the deload week after Cycle 2. It's allowed in the program, and I did it to coincide with the event that I had planned to compete in. With no time constraints and a good deload after Cycle 2 I would probably have not tailed off at the end of Cycle 3 as I did. I did get a good deload last week prior to testing this week.
But yeah, 10 reps on the tops set in the 3rd week is probably the sweet spot. Do you see anything else here relative to your experience with the program?
@Manuel Fortin That is very interesting, and I think you're onto something. You might see some things in my spreadsheet analysis that match what you're saying. My 3rd set numbers are in red, and I multiplied out the weights of them and ran the totals to see some interesting trends. One thing I think I see there is that I would have been better off not to skip the deload week after Cycle 2. It's allowed in the program, and I did it to coincide with the event that I had planned to compete in. With no time constraints and a good deload after Cycle 2 I would probably have not tailed off at the end of Cycle 3 as I did. I did get a good deload last week prior to testing this week.
But yeah, 10 reps on the tops set in the 3rd week is probably the sweet spot. Do you see anything else here relative to your experience with the program?
Thanks, I will check it out!
Manuel Fortin
Level 6 Valued Member
@Anna C I will look at all this when I have a bit of time. There is a lot of data. A few things:
1 - Wendler now advocates two cycles before a deload, and only that. So what you did with cycles 2 and 3 is not only OK, it's the new normal. He dumped the deload every 4th week completely.
2 - The success of the program depends a lot on what you do besides the 531 reps. Wendler now advocates First Set Last for 5X5 as being one of the best ways to run the program. So, on the 5 week, you do your top set at 85%. You then take 5 minutes or a bit more, and do 5 sets of 5 at 65%. I do these sets with only minimal pause between them. Just enough to catch my breath, which may be 1 to 2 minutes top, depending on the load. If you push the top set before, you will get tired by the last few sets of 5 and they will not feel wasted. This is also in line with an "easy strength" way of doing things: lower the load, concentrate on technique. I started at 3 sets as mentioned above as I lacked the work capacity to do more productively, but will probably get to 5 soon.
3 - I don't know how others run the program, but things are doing well when I stop my top set as soon as the bar slows down. Wendler says to leave 1 or 2 reps in the bank, but I may even sometimes leave 3. I do not grind any rep. OK, not true, once a cycle, and for one lift only, I push a little more. Still, I never fail a rep.
4 - Deload: I don't know which book you have, but in Beyond 531, one of the deload option is to work up to a single at your training max. I tried it and it worked really well. Volume was very small. Maybe 10-12 reps, including warm ups. There are also many deload options other than the one you did.
5 - I don't know where I read this, but I think that there are some ways to adjust your training max optimally in Wendler's new book, which I will get as soon as it's available electronically. I just don't buy physical books anymore. I think the goal is to have the training max always around 85-90% of your real max. This gets back to what I was saying of repping more for the top set. If you do 3 reps on your 531 week, your training max is probably too high according to this way of running the program. 95% of 90% is about 85%. At 85% of your max, you should be good for at least 4-5 reps.
1 - Wendler now advocates two cycles before a deload, and only that. So what you did with cycles 2 and 3 is not only OK, it's the new normal. He dumped the deload every 4th week completely.
2 - The success of the program depends a lot on what you do besides the 531 reps. Wendler now advocates First Set Last for 5X5 as being one of the best ways to run the program. So, on the 5 week, you do your top set at 85%. You then take 5 minutes or a bit more, and do 5 sets of 5 at 65%. I do these sets with only minimal pause between them. Just enough to catch my breath, which may be 1 to 2 minutes top, depending on the load. If you push the top set before, you will get tired by the last few sets of 5 and they will not feel wasted. This is also in line with an "easy strength" way of doing things: lower the load, concentrate on technique. I started at 3 sets as mentioned above as I lacked the work capacity to do more productively, but will probably get to 5 soon.
3 - I don't know how others run the program, but things are doing well when I stop my top set as soon as the bar slows down. Wendler says to leave 1 or 2 reps in the bank, but I may even sometimes leave 3. I do not grind any rep. OK, not true, once a cycle, and for one lift only, I push a little more. Still, I never fail a rep.
4 - Deload: I don't know which book you have, but in Beyond 531, one of the deload option is to work up to a single at your training max. I tried it and it worked really well. Volume was very small. Maybe 10-12 reps, including warm ups. There are also many deload options other than the one you did.
5 - I don't know where I read this, but I think that there are some ways to adjust your training max optimally in Wendler's new book, which I will get as soon as it's available electronically. I just don't buy physical books anymore. I think the goal is to have the training max always around 85-90% of your real max. This gets back to what I was saying of repping more for the top set. If you do 3 reps on your 531 week, your training max is probably too high according to this way of running the program. 95% of 90% is about 85%. At 85% of your max, you should be good for at least 4-5 reps.
@Manuel Fortin Those are great thoughts on 5/3/1. I think you have a better grasp on it than I do -- I feel like I could study and practice it for months and still have more to learn. And yet at the same time I feel like I need to move on and try other programs.
One thing I noticed in 5/3/1 Forever is he emphasizes jumps and throws between sets, especially warm-up sets, to help be explosive on the lifts. Being explosive is something I probably could have done better at focusing on. But, I do kettlebell swings/snatches etc... and many people on barbell programs aren't doing that kind of assistance work or coming from that background.
Yes, that's my understanding too, the training max is 85-90% of your actual max, and then the 5/3/1 percentages are based on the training max.
I put together a video of my 1RM lifts last week.... Critiques are welcome!!!!
One thing I noticed in 5/3/1 Forever is he emphasizes jumps and throws between sets, especially warm-up sets, to help be explosive on the lifts. Being explosive is something I probably could have done better at focusing on. But, I do kettlebell swings/snatches etc... and many people on barbell programs aren't doing that kind of assistance work or coming from that background.
Yes, that's my understanding too, the training max is 85-90% of your actual max, and then the 5/3/1 percentages are based on the training max.
I put together a video of my 1RM lifts last week.... Critiques are welcome!!!!
The Nail
Level 7 Valued Member
Form looks solid all around.
In the bench press, you could consider starting the lift sooner after you lift it out of the rack. The longer you hold a max weight, the more energy you burn.
Also, would it hurt you to smile more after a successful attempt?
Shahaf Levin
Level 5 Valued Member
Form looks solid all around.
In the bench press, you could consider starting the lift sooner after you lift it out of the rack. The longer you hold a max weight, the more energy you burn.
Also, would it hurt you to smile more after a successful attempt?
My thoughts exactly... specially the last one
Saxon also mentions the start-the-lift-soon-and-don't-let-your-strength-deplete-by-holding-for-long in his books
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
Nice lifts!
A couple of things came to mind:
Your head and neck position changes between the easier deadlifts and the PR. Maybe there's a reason for it, and maybe it would be better to do it the same way every time. Maybe not, maybe not.
Also, when doing your overhead press, it could be worth a shot to try to have the bar move closer to your face. For men it's easy to say that you should feel the bar pass through your beard.
A couple of things came to mind:
Your head and neck position changes between the easier deadlifts and the PR. Maybe there's a reason for it, and maybe it would be better to do it the same way every time. Maybe not, maybe not.
Also, when doing your overhead press, it could be worth a shot to try to have the bar move closer to your face. For men it's easy to say that you should feel the bar pass through your beard.
Kettlebelephant
Level 6 Valued Member
Nice lifts Anna!
Suprised about you dropping so fast in the squat I'm used to the vids of the PL guys who take their time going into the hole and never went down so fast myself.
Feeling the bar in my beard would still be too close for my taste
Suprised about you dropping so fast in the squat
I'm used to the vids of the PL guys who take their time going into the hole and never went down so fast myself.Got myself a bloody nose on two different occasions when I push pressed
Feeling the bar in my beard would still be too close for my taste
Those are nice lifts !
Technically, I do not see anything bad.
Yes, you could go a little less fast on the (active) negative of the squat, but it is a 1RM test, and it still looks pretty good.
You are wedging better in the deadlift than you used to, and the bar is closer to your shins. This is a great improvement from last time I saw one of your videos!
You are well settled for the SFL! With your current strength and technique, you will be able to focus more on absorbing the knowledge than worrying about the tests.
Technically, I do not see anything bad.
Yes, you could go a little less fast on the (active) negative of the squat, but it is a 1RM test, and it still looks pretty good.
You are wedging better in the deadlift than you used to, and the bar is closer to your shins. This is a great improvement from last time I saw one of your videos!
You are well settled for the SFL! With your current strength and technique, you will be able to focus more on absorbing the knowledge than worrying about the tests.
Manuel Fortin
Level 6 Valued Member
@Anna C, regarding your data, one thing I like to do is see how I do from from one cycle to the next with the same weight. The way the program is setup, if you do one weight on the 3rd week, in a later cycle the same weight will come up in the 2nd week, and in a further cycle in the 1st week. Reps should go up as the weight moves earlier in the cycle.
If you look at your press, it started at 6 reps at 80 pounds, went up to 7 reps on the second cycle at the same weight (now the second weight), and stayed the same on the last cycle at the same weight (now the 1st week). It's then not surprising that your max did not move much. Even going from 6 to7 may or may not be an improvement, depending on how hard you push each last rep in different weeks, recovery, etc...
Also, I see weird things in your squat numbers. They go up over the first cycle every week, even if the weight increases. This means that you maybe had some beginners gains to be made for that lift compared to the other ones. I think you are relatively new to barbell squats, so that makes sense.
Also, you did 125X17 in the first cycle but only 125X8 in the second cycle (different weeks of course). That is strange. Maybe a problem with recovery, or you are still progressing with technique, which means that some days you are "on", but others you are "off".
I understand that 531 is not for everyone. The first time I gave it a try I made little progress. It seems to be working better now, and I think that the higher reps for the top set and the FSL sets are the way to go to get enough volume. What I like is that the main lift is done in about 20-25 minutes. Then, I can do 15 min of accessory work and am done. It works with my current schedule. I also do a quick 15 min session just before lunch.
If you look at your press, it started at 6 reps at 80 pounds, went up to 7 reps on the second cycle at the same weight (now the second weight), and stayed the same on the last cycle at the same weight (now the 1st week). It's then not surprising that your max did not move much. Even going from 6 to7 may or may not be an improvement, depending on how hard you push each last rep in different weeks, recovery, etc...
Also, I see weird things in your squat numbers. They go up over the first cycle every week, even if the weight increases. This means that you maybe had some beginners gains to be made for that lift compared to the other ones. I think you are relatively new to barbell squats, so that makes sense.
Also, you did 125X17 in the first cycle but only 125X8 in the second cycle (different weeks of course). That is strange. Maybe a problem with recovery, or you are still progressing with technique, which means that some days you are "on", but others you are "off".
I understand that 531 is not for everyone. The first time I gave it a try I made little progress. It seems to be working better now, and I think that the higher reps for the top set and the FSL sets are the way to go to get enough volume. What I like is that the main lift is done in about 20-25 minutes. Then, I can do 15 min of accessory work and am done. It works with my current schedule. I also do a quick 15 min session just before lunch.
Great inputs, thanks guys!!
Hmm I never thought about that. To me, it feels like a get-up... I could static-hold the weight all day. But this makes sense.
It does. Not sure if it helped me or if my body just thought it would.
I love this cue... even though I hope it's never applicable for me
There's something I never thought too much about, the speed of the descent. I'll play with that when practicing next and see if it feels stronger with a slow, tension-building descent. That does sound right.
Yes, I agree, on the wedging! Thanks! And that is great to hear that I seem to be ready for SFL. I am eager for it.
Press, yes, interesting. Maybe I should have not increased the weight in the 2nd and/or 3rd cycle, that way I would have more 3rd set reps and that might have done more good for me. MP and BP are supposed to increase 5 lb per cycle, you may notice that I accidentally increased the BP 10 lb on the 3rd cycle, that was just an oversight but seemed to work OK for the BP.
Great catch on the squats 125x8! I see now looking back at my training log for that week the likely reason for it, although I didn't put it together at the time. I did kettlebell front squats on Monday that week w/ double 20kgs (challenging weight) and I did those 40kg swings. As for the early progress, it could also be related to the weeks prior where I was working on the squat unprogrammed, whereas the others I started with the beginning of Cycle 1. So the squat had a little bit of a head start.
Thanks all for the inputs, there is so much to be learned in both technique and programming, this has been a great learning experience and really enforces to me the value of keeping data.
Hmm I never thought about that. To me, it feels like a get-up... I could static-hold the weight all day.
But this makes sense.It does. Not sure if it helped me or if my body just thought it would.
I love this cue... even though I hope it's never applicable for me
Suprised about you dropping so fast in the squat
There's something I never thought too much about, the speed of the descent. I'll play with that when practicing next and see if it feels stronger with a slow, tension-building descent. That does sound right.
Yes, I agree, on the wedging! Thanks! And that is great to hear that I seem to be ready for SFL. I am eager for it.
Press, yes, interesting. Maybe I should have not increased the weight in the 2nd and/or 3rd cycle, that way I would have more 3rd set reps and that might have done more good for me. MP and BP are supposed to increase 5 lb per cycle, you may notice that I accidentally increased the BP 10 lb on the 3rd cycle, that was just an oversight but seemed to work OK for the BP.
Great catch on the squats 125x8! I see now looking back at my training log for that week the likely reason for it, although I didn't put it together at the time. I did kettlebell front squats on Monday that week w/ double 20kgs (challenging weight) and I did those 40kg swings. As for the early progress, it could also be related to the weeks prior where I was working on the squat unprogrammed, whereas the others I started with the beginning of Cycle 1. So the squat had a little bit of a head start.
Thanks all for the inputs, there is so much to be learned in both technique and programming, this has been a great learning experience and really enforces to me the value of keeping data.
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
There are conflicting viewpoints about the viewpoint. Pavel recommends far or up in PTTP. Some recommend to look down. In BB Pavel talks about a powerlifter who looks down at lift off and changes to look upwards later during the lift. I would recommend you try different styles and see what suits you best at the moment.
When it comes to squat speed, I would recommend to not go down too slow, as that may kill a bit of the stretch reflex that is very helpful in the squat. I rather think your current speed is good. As fast as you can with full tension, I'd say.
When it comes to squat speed, I would recommend to not go down too slow, as that may kill a bit of the stretch reflex that is very helpful in the squat. I rather think your current speed is good. As fast as you can with full tension, I'd say.
@Antti, I think it's highly individual. At StrongFirst, we have come to teaching a neutral or slightly extended neck, pretty much the same thing we teach for swings. We are interested in teaching a solid, simple, basic form that is safe and effective for everyone. Once one reaches a certain point, however, individual differences kick in, and one can indeed benefit from deviating from the form one learned early on as you find what works best for you. Not everyone needs to do this or is ready to do this, however, and it helps to get feedback from experienced coaches and lifters.
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Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I understand and agree.
First of all, there's the beginners and the biggest common demoninator. They are well served with far and up - better thought as an angle in my opinion.
Then there exists individual properties and training experience. Some are able to look far and up without extension, some need it somewhat, but I agree that it should be slight at most. And at some "certain point" some of us, who are not content with their results, need to start dissecting our performance and extracting minute improvements. Then we can have a look at what we have a look at. And that is a bigger question with different variables.
Manuel Fortin
Level 6 Valued Member
@Anna C As an update, as I mentioned, I implemented higher rep work for all lifts now in 531 (ie, lowered my training max). It may be early to judge and results may be normal variations, but in the bench I did 130X12, 140X10 and 150X10 in this cycle! These are all PRs. When my "531" week has the same reps as the "3" week, I know things are going well. We'll see how things go for the next few months, but this is really looking good now. Even deadlifts are higher rep. I did 250X12 last week and stopped more out of boredom than anything else. I had more left even if the lifts were getting a bit tiring.
I will probably run this all fall at least and will report back in a few months to compare low vs high rep progress.
I will probably run this all fall at least and will report back in a few months to compare low vs high rep progress.
Great to hear! That is definitely motivation towards one of Jim Wendler's "Principe No 1" from 5/3/1 Forever, "Start Too Light." "By training too light you allow your body and mind to adapt and build a training callous." and "This principle allow you to use the correct weights, with the correct speed and also allows you to account for good and bad days." And as we are seeing, you can actually get more solid work in, by getting a 3rd set with 10 or so reps.
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