Nutrition The Calorie (long article)

[LukeV]

If you look at photos of people suffering starvation you will see that everyone is lean, no-one is fat. I hate to make it that brutal but that's the power of calorie restriction. It 100% works for weight loss all of the time. The problem is that in the face of plenty the willpower model necessary to underpin calorie restriction does not work for most overweight people, at least over the long term. So looking at calorie restriction differently, such as through the lens of low carb, low fat, meal skipping, IF etc can make the process feel easier

 

[North Coast Miller]

I think a lot of the discussion comes back to activity levels. If you are active, then calorie count means a lot more than if you are sedentary.

If you are not active, the cellular machinery that process the calories isn't working properly - in effect, sedentary people have a metabolic disorder to some degree. This is why the prescription isn't "diet", it is "diet and exercise".

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I don't buy the idea that people are fat because they're lazy and stupid.

The Reality of Obesity

1) Poor Genetics: These individual are predispose to obesity due to theirs genetics. They are faced with more difficulties with weight loss than most. I have empathy for them.

2) Lack of Motivation: The majority are not motivated enough do what it takes. A synonym for Lack of Motivation is Lazy.

Dr Jason Curtis', PhD Sports Psychology, presentation at my 2013 Albuquerque Strength and Conditioning Clinic was on "Winning the Challenge". It was based on is research on a local gym version of a "Body For Life" contest.

Curtis determined that the success of the the individual in the weight loss program were in a large part drive by motivation. The greater the motivation, the more successful was with their weight loss.

The less motivated, the less successful and the greater the drop out the weight loss program/contest.

What Curtis research found was the greater the individual motivation the more successful the individual weight loss.

His research also found that a strong personal connection between the Personal Trainer was a huge contributing factor the degree of success of the individual.

Curtis went on to state that although some success was achieved with individual with a personal connection with the Personal Trainer; these individual rated low in motivation.

This takes us back to what I previously posted...

"Successful people are willing to do what unsuccessful people won't."

That point was make in...

Is the most effective weight-loss strategy really that hard? New study shows dietary self-monitoring takes less than 15 minutes a day

"Dietary self-monitoring is the best predictor of weight-loss success."

Thus, the individuals who were motivated to enough to self-monitor were the winners of "weight loss success".

Individual who were not motivated enough to self-monitor were less successful.

3) Lack of Knowledge. The underlying lynch pin for this is Lack of Motivation rather than stupidity. With the availability of information on the internet, there no reason a Lack of Knowledge.

Ignorance is often a choice. It doesn't mean you are ; you just chose not to know or learn.

I would bet a group of 1,000 obese people and 1,000 slim people have the same proportions of losers, achievers, and regular folks.

The 80/20 Rule

The "proportion of losers, achievers and regular folks" in any group is going to be about the same; the 80/20 Rule applies.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can make it drink."

You best investment is derived from helping someone who want to be helped and is willing to do what it takes.

Trying to help someone who doesn't want be helped, isn't motivated, is time wasted.

That applies to all aspect of life. Use you time wisely.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[krg]

To explain the obesity epidemic, the willpower model requires us to accept a collapse in world-wide willpower levels since 1975 - which is possible but at least needs proper examination.

Lack of movement / physical labour IS likely to be a major driver IMO. First world-war soldier ration packs contained 4000-4500 kcal / day.

I think it is possible that today's living and working conditions have placed us in the position of having to eat 2000-2500 kcal / day - probably for the first time in history in the developed world (where food has always been relatively plentiful). It would appear that a significant proportion of the population struggle in those circumstances - possibly for genetic factors - maybe for other reasons - hell, there is a virus that makes chickens get fat.

 

[Snowman]

@kennycro@@aol.com and @krg, as I find myself agreeing with both of you, I realize that perhaps we should clarify when we're talking about people gaining weight and losing weight. Weight gain seems to the default for developed populations due a variety of reason, whereas weight loss is a targeted intervention that requires a certain degree of focus and discipline (though how much is needed is up for debate).

 

[Neuro-Bob]

The Reality of Obesity

1) Poor Genetics: These individual are predispose to obesity due to theirs genetics. They are faced with more difficulties with weight loss than most. I have empathy for them.

2) Lack of Motivation: The majority are not motivated enough do what it takes. A synonym for Lack of Motivation is Lazy.

Dr Jason Curtis', PhD Sports Psychology, presentation at my 2013 Albuquerque Strength and Conditioning Clinic was on "Winning the Challenge". It was based on is research on a local gym version of a "Body For Life" contest.

Curtis determined that the success of the the individual in the weight loss program were in a large part drive by motivation. The greater the motivation, the more successful was with their weight loss.

The less motivated, the less successful and the greater the drop out the weight loss program/contest.

What Curtis research found was the greater the individual motivation the more successful the individual weight loss.

His research also found that a strong personal connection between the Personal Trainer was a huge contributing factor the degree of success of the individual.

Curtis went on to state that although some success was achieved with individual with a personal connection with the Personal Trainer; these individual rated low in motivation.

This takes us back to what I previously posted...

"Successful people are willing to do what unsuccessful people won't."

That point was make in...

Is the most effective weight-loss strategy really that hard? New study shows dietary self-monitoring takes less than 15 minutes a day

"Dietary self-monitoring is the best predictor of weight-loss success."

Thus, the individuals who were motivated to enough to self-monitor were the winners of "weight loss success".

Individual who were not motivated enough to self-monitor were less successful.

3) Lack of Knowledge. The underlying lynch pin for this is Lack of Motivation rather than stupidity. With the availability of information on the internet, there no reason a Lack of Knowledge.

Ignorance is often a choice. It doesn't mean you are ; you just chose not to know or learn.



The 80/20 Rule

The "proportion of losers, achievers and regular folks" in any group is going to be about the same; the 80/20 Rule applies.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can make it drink."

You best investment is derived from helping someone who want to be helped and is willing to do what it takes.

Trying to help someone who doesn't want be helped, isn't motivated, is time wasted.

That applies to all aspect of life. Use you time wisely.

Kenny Croxdale

I love your thought out and organized responses.

I’m not sure if I quite agree with the thrust of “self monitoring only takes 15min.”

Factually, I 100% agree with that statement. Logging foods into a nutrition app, especially with the ability to scan a QR code or BAR code, probably actually reduces the number.

The issue is that it has a mental effect, where (at least I) spend waaaaaaaaaaaAaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too much time thinking about food outside of logging and eating. This may be a psychological result not factored in here, that is usually what people associate with “counting calories is too hard.” See the example below.

It’s an anecdote, not a study, but I imagine I’m not the only one that thinks this way. It’s not the total time taken to log, it’s that it’s a constant nagging at the edge of consciousness.....


For example....

Meal -1hr “oh boy foods coming up”

Meal -45min “what should it be? Here are five meals, and five variations of each meal off the top of my head, that fit the meal’s calorie goal.”

Meal -30min “ok lets do this one.”

Meal -15min “yahoo prepping food!”

Meal “yum!”

Meal +1min “logging time, get the app out!”

Meal +10min “ok how did I like that, was it enough?”

Meal +30min “Running low on groceries. Might as well absentmindedly meal plan the next week.”

Meal +1hr “how do I feel with the previous meal? Allergic reactions, dislikes, anything lingering? How’s the energy?”

Meal +2hrs “hmmm it’s not meal time yet? All this thinking about food sure does keep me hungry!”

 

[Neuro-Bob]

As a continuation of the previous post.....

A lot of dietary changes are essentially ways to restrict calories without thinking about calories. This has been mentioned before I believe. But....

LF/HC - if done via plants and not pasta, is basically calorie restriction via (healthy) volume eating.

LC/HF - is essentially calorie restriction via highly satiating food

IF - is essentially calorie restriction via time restriction

Personally a strict diet of eggs, steak, and fish is the easiest way to do any of this.

Scientifically there are hormonal things going on as well that @Snowman knows far more about. Each of the choices above may result in varying hormonal responses that may be positive or negative depending on the individual.

Community, psychology, life style, etc, are all MAJOR factors in weight loss over all that a simple calorie discussion heinously omits.

 

[krg]

I’m not sure if I quite agree with the thrust of “self monitoring only takes 15min.”

Factually, I 100% agree with that statement. Logging foods into a nutrition app, especially with the ability to scan a QR code or BAR code, probably actually reduces the number.

The issue is that it has a mental effect, where (at least I) spend waaaaaaaaaaaAaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too much time thinking about food outside of logging and eating. This may be a psychological result not factored in here, that is usually what people associate with “counting calories is too hard.” See the example below.

@Neuro-Bob raises a good point.

I can think of things that might only take 15 minutes, but it doesn't stop me thinking about them a lot more than that.

In fact I would hazard that the reason that food logging is effective is because the people who do it DO OBSESS about it the rest of the day, or it wouldn't alter their behaviour. Which is the reason it is diffcult to do long term.

 

[Anna C]

Logging foods into a nutrition app, especially with the ability to scan a QR code or BAR code, probably actually reduces the number.

I logged for about 4 months total starting last fall using MyFitnessPal.

On a good day, I would agree I could spend 15 minutes on it and get it done. On these days my eating was simple, consisting of maybe 10 different "things" total, many of them meal-prepped or pre-measured. For example, 1 serving of steel cut oats. 6 oz of flank steak. 1 egg and 1 c. egg whites. 2 slices of bread. 1 pkg frozen veggies (steamables -- scan the bar code). 1 c non-fat greek yogurt. Also many of them were repeat items, easily pulled up and re-entered, and I knew the macro content and therefore could make choices for later meals and get the right totals.

Scanning bar codes helps a lot, yes... but then, if you're scanning bar codes, you're probably eating processed food.... which can be convenient for calorie/macro counting, but generally not good for health and overall balance.

On other days, where I just ate randomly and then tried to log it, it would drive me crazy and I'd end up searching, logging, and estimating 20-25 different "things." Probably mis-estimating, too.

Overall it was time well spent. I got a lot better handle on my macros and learned a lot about where I might tend to go wrong with certain choices, getting way more fat or carbs or calories, or even protein, than I had previously thought. During this logging time, I had a macro goal each day for carbs, fat, and protein and I was able to hit it pretty well most days. I was about 80% compliant/disciplined. I think the problem for me was that if I didn't hit the numbers, it was almost always because I got lax on counting, and then ended up over, and then because I was dilligently trying to "fill" the numbers I didn't have those natural shortages that we tend to have when eating by convenience and appetite. So it almost seemed that once I got the hang of it, it didn't work at all for weight loss because I wasn't 100% compliant. 100% compliance is really, really hard. And this is a case where 80% compliance can backfire.

Weight-loss wise, I lost 5 lbs in the first 2 months, slowly lost another 3, gained the 3 back over the holidays, and have been at exactly the same weight for the last 6 weeks or so, even with no logging for almost a month now. My appetite guides me extremely well to maintain my weight. I'd really like to lose 10 lb, but that's always a battle for me and I try to pick my battles wisely. My approach to diet is: First, do no harm... And that includes health, training, and overall well-being. So if that keeps me at current weight, so be it.

 

[Antti]

I wonder how big a difference there is in the end if we just log what we ate, like write down "three sandwiches, like always", instead of hunting down the exact nutritional values.

 

[Snowman]

First, do no harm

Funny how this principle crops up all the time. Nutrition, training, finances...

I wonder how big a difference there is in the end if we just log what we ate, like write down "three sandwiches, like always", instead of hunting down the exact nutritional values.

There was a short term study done that showed some modest weight loss when the subjects were asked to send in pictures of all their meals and snacks. No calculating, no planning, just texting a photo to someone they didn't know and would never meet. It does seem that simply adding a tiny bit consciousness to the eating process can be useful.

 

[Anna C]

Funny how this principle crops up all the time. Nutrition, training, finances...

Yes, I think it's important to consider -- basically a cost/benefit analysis of an effort such as losing weight. Because often people have substantial costs to the effort such as being grumpy and irritable or otherwise less mentally healthy, feeling low-energy, training or performance decreases, expenses for different food habits or kitchen gadgets or prepared meals, time for logging and food prep, strained social or family relationships, decreased work performance for either a manual-effort or a mental-effort type of work.... And when you have all these costs and don't see results, that can be REALLY frustrating and a pretty powerful disincentive to try again.

I like the original article and mostly agree with the premise. Calorie counting is not THE answer.

Nutrition and weight is a lot like fitness, really. Those who have it pretty much under control and know how to train/eat to maintain a healthy state try to give advice to those who are WAY far away from where they need or want to be... and that advice is not really applicable. Getting from point A to Z is a whole different thing than getting from A to B, if that makes sense.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I wonder how big a difference there is in the end if we just log what we ate, like write down "three sandwiches, like always", instead of hunting down the exact nutritional values.

The times I have been hard-nosed about my diet, I have written up an average week of all meals, beers everything, sat down, did the math, totaled it up and rough estimated the macro ratios based on the facts I had readily available after deconstructing my meals (Tbsp butter, slice of bread, glass of milk etc).

From this total I decided where changes needed to be made and simply compared the rough intake vs this average. Keeping in mind I normally have used this to gain weight, not lose, but the principle is the same. If you take the time to develop a reasonable awareness of what is in most whole foods (processed stuff can be very difficult to accurately guess and should be avoided or estimated on the very high end as well as generally avoided) you can then go on the "three sandwiches" or "toast 2 slices, two eggs and coffee" etc etc.

I cannot imagine trying to gain or lose weight without taking this step. For most people trying to get to a caloric deficit they need do little more than reduce portion sizes - is not like most folks are running on a massive surplus overnight, they become overweight gradually.

If you crunch the numbers and are gaining or losing weight, it doesn't matter what your current total is, it needs to be shrunk or increased, not readjusted to some nutrition research center's modeled value that equals a hypothetical total of projected need. Based on this, caloric totals are not important.

That's not the whole story though, and why I take the view that calories ARE important but as a relative value, not an absolute one. Start from what you know - your current diet - and make changes from there.

Reading the article, our protagonist finally made gains by...eating more whole foods instead of processed lo-fat stuff, and doing Crossfit instead of a treadmill. Hmmm, whose advice was he following initially and why the astonishment when it failed to deliver consistent results?

 

[LukeV]

@kennycro@@aol.com and @krg, I realize that perhaps we should clarify when we're talking about people gaining weight and losing weight. Weight gain seems to the default for developed populations due a variety of reason, whereas weight loss is a targeted intervention that requires a certain degree of focus and discipline (though how much is needed is up for debate).

While there is a difference between gaining weight and losing weight people who find themselves overweight should stop to consider what got them there in the first place and at least stop doing that. For almost everyone this comes down to what they eat and drink and is so obvious that no more than two minutes reflection on day one provides the answer. In fact they probably only have to think about their last meal. Not getting fatter is the most basic weight control strategy and a necessary pre-cursor to weight loss.

 

[Ryan T]

Thinking about accuracy in food reporting... In the 4-Hour Body, Tim Ferriss quotes a study where the participants had to snap a photo of whatever they were going to eat. The photo diary gave the participants instant feedback and it tended to curb their food choices.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1470-6431.2008.00725.x

Perhaps I should start taking pictures of my food before I eat it...

 

[Steve Freides]

I don't buy the idea that people are fat because they're lazy and stupid

Me, neither, but self-discipline is a more specific thing than "lazy and stupid" and I do find people, some of them my friends who freely admit it, who feel their lives are so full of "supposed to be" things that they simple don't want one more. They have to listen to their boss, take care of their children, and whatever else, and they don't really want to buy into the idea that they need to take the necessary steps towards achieving a body composition goal if they want to achieve that goal. They're simply "busy enough."

And one can sympathize with their position.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...self-discipline is a more specific thing than "lazy and stupid"

It's Not In Their DNA

Yes, many of these individual have no self-discipline. They never have an never will; it appears to be part of their DNA.

That's essentially what Jason Curtis', PhD Sports Psychology, presentation at my 2013 Albuquerque Strength and Conditioning Clinic was on "Winning the Challenge"; a local version of the "Body For Life" contest.

Curtis went on to state that the participants in the the weight loss who connected with the Personal Trainer they worked with had some success. However, what limited optimal success was they had no drive to go farther.

their lives are so full of "supposed to be" things that they simple don't want one more. They have to listen to their boss, take care of their children, and whatever else, and they don't really want to buy into the idea that they need to take the necessary steps towards achieving a body composition goal if they want to achieve that goal. They're simply "busy enough."

Excuses

All of the above are excuses; an attempt to defend or justify why the can't.

There is mental negativity for individual who constantly come up with excuses as to why they can't; a self fulling prophecy, “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't –you're right."

The Luck Factor

Dr Richard Wiseman's research in his book, The Luck Factor, goes into the mental negativity and the excuses that individual come up with as to why they can't.

Don't Have Time

The irony is that no one has time for things they don't like or place little value on.

Make Time

People have time for things they like to do and place a value on; they Make Time.

Improving The Outcome

Some overweight individual have some genetic issue that make it hard for them.

However, their situation can be improved, providing they Make Time rather than waste it making excuses.

My Request

In dealing with individual who try to provide me with a laundry list or excuses, I shut it down.

My response is, "Tell me what you can do!" Finding out what someone can/is willing to do provide a positive start in the right direction.

Summary

'Successful people do what unsuccessful people are not willing to do. '

Kenny Croxdale

 

[deviant]

It's always entertaining to see new arguments about things that have been proven many times over. Namely - weight loss/gain is determined by the energy balance. Reading about insulin as the culprit used to be entertaining, now it's plain boring. Do you know that ingesting protein elicits insulin spike similar to glucose? Yes, this finding goes back to the 1980s: Effect of Protein Ingestion on the Glucose and Insulin Response to a Standardized Oral Glucose Load and repeated many times since. Yet the "influential gurus" like Gary Taubes keeps blowing the same trumpet, carefully selecting studies to make his point, while ignoring the most reliable, metabolic ward studies that time after time show his theories to be wrong.

Obesity is the disease of addiction to food. So the next guy coming up with the appetite control pill will get very rich. Except that it's not that simple. Appetite is a multifaceted phenomenon: we eat when we are hungry, when we are sad, happy, depressed, anxious, to keep a company, to satisfy a particular taste or an urge and many other reasons, most often in combination. Go figure why a pregnant woman craves herring with honey and onion...

Will power is a limited resource, and so blaming people for the lack of self discipline is not very useful.

 

[Neuro-Bob]

Go figure why a pregnant woman craves herring with honey and onion...

This sounds disgusting....

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

weight loss/gain is determined by the energy balance.

Calories In, Calorie Out

Yes, that is the first issue that need to be addressed in every weight loss or weight gain plan.

Reading about insulin as the culprit used to be entertaining, now it's plain boring.

"Insulin is a Fat Maker..." Jay Robb

Insulin plays a role when it come to gaining weight, specifically with Insulin Resistant individuals. These individual can metaphorically walk past a loaf of bread and gain weight.

Thus, decreasing insulin levels for Insulin Resistance individual, via decreasing carbohydrate intake, especially high glycemic index and insulin index carbohydrates usually make a significant difference.

Effect of Protein Ingestion on the Glucose and Insulin Response to a Standardized Oral Glucose Load

Nutrient Timing, Dr John Ivy

This book is based on Dr John Ivy's research. Ivy found glucose was reloaded faster with a glucose/protein combination rather than only glucose. That to the dismay of Gatorade.

Due the fact that Gatorade was glucose (no protein) with some minerals thrown it; they were screwed. Gatorade preceded to scream it was true; that because they were up to there neck in inventory of Gatorade Glucose only drinks and not set up for making a glucose/protein drink.

Ironically, Gatorade finally started making glucose/protein drinks; in doing so driving up the price of whey protein.

Protein Vs Glucose

Protein along will increase insulin but not to the same degree as glucose. Leucine, the anabolic amino acid, is one of the that will spike insulin; spiking meaning insulin quickly is elevated and then drop like a rock.

Glucose increases level to a much greater degree than protein. Insulin level remain elevated for a much longer period of time, especially in Insulin Resistance individuals.

Obesity is the disease of addiction to food. So the next guy coming up with the appetite control pill will get very rich. Except that it's not that simple. Appetite is a multifaceted phenomenon: we eat when we are hungry, when we are sad, happy, depressed, anxious, to keep a company, to satisfy a particular taste or an urge and many other reasons, most often in combination. Go figure why a pregnant woman craves herring with honey and onion...

Sugar Addition

Sugar is one of the most addictive substances there is. The constant rise and fall on blood sugar diver hunger for a variety of reasons

A PBS Special went into how when mice were give a choice between sugar and cocaine, they chose sugar.

Sugar (glucose) drive food addiction, which drive obesity; especially with Insulin Resistant individuals.

Which bring us to...

Ketogenic Diet, Intermittent Fasting and Low Carbohydrate Diets Like Atkins

One of the underlying mechanism in abstaining from a high carbohydrate intake, especially high glycemic and high insulin index foods, that is satiety; your not riding the blood sugar roller coaster that drives hunger.

Will power is a limited resource, and so blaming people for the lack of self discipline is not very useful.

Lack of Self Discipline

For the majority of individual, being overweight is something they have chose.

The majority of individual could improve their situation but Lack The Motivation to do so. Their Lack of Motivation carries over to many other aspect of their life.

As Dr Jason Curtis' noted in his research presentation on "Winning The Challenge" (Body For Life type program) individual who didn't so as well as they could have or failed didn't were motivated to do what it take; a Lack of Motivation.

With that said, some individual have genetic problems that cause them to be obese. However, that dosen't mean they cannot improve their situation, IF they really want to.

Lame Excuses

The majority of obese individual simply are not motivated enough to do anything to change their situation.

Excuses are an attempt to defend or justify why the can't.

The main one that is used for whatever reason someone wasn't able to do something in any situation is...

I Didn't Have Time

To reiterate, you never have time for thing you don't like to do.

Making Time

You Make Time for things that you want to do or value.

Final Thought

I have two family members who are overweight. I have a great deal of empathy for these individual.

One weighed around 300 lbs for close to 20 years. Then for some reason they became motivated and lost 120 lbs by hard work and some help from me. They are still slightly overweight because of genetic factors but are in a much better place.

Another family member is overweight, pre-diabetic, has non-alchol fatty liver, etc. She could do something but isn't motivated. She'd rather take a pill. However, none the medication she's taking have done much to improve her health condition.

She has chosen her condition; she's to blame her condition not improving. It's sad but that reality of the situation.

My brother in law is a Type I Diabetic at 280 lbs plus. He lives off Snicker and other junk food, no problem.

He just jack up the amount of insulin he injects. How much sense does that make?

Kenny Croxdale