Kettlebell The Fallacy of the Heavy Kettlebell Swing

[Colin Stewart]

@ali when I was assisting at a cert a few years back, our team had the option to do the snatch test on basically a dense foam matted area, or the concrete floor.

Guess where I convinced them to do it

In my home gym I have a double garage area, 3/4 is Judo mats and 1/4 is cow stall mats. I'll always choose the cow stall mats (dense rubber) for my ballistics .

People know not to swing in running shoes, they tend to forget about the surface itself.

A further memory.... I was assisting at an SFG2 with Jon Engum, who did his Flexible Steel workshop the day before the 2-day SFG2. We had to do our skills and snatch test on the evening after Flexible Steel. It was the hardest snatch test I've ever done, as I'd lost all the elasticity from my hams/glutes....

 

[Steve W.]

For those of you pulling out the maths/physics, you're only considering the vertical displacement. Most of you are forgetting about the arc (rotation) in the sagittal plane and any arm pull (mostly thinking of the snatch and clean here).

I learned a long time ago not to bring maths to a kettlebell fight

This is a good point.

Personally, I don't have much interest in actually or accurately calculating the forces involved in KB ballistics.

The points I've tried to make are definitely based on simplified approximations.

One of those points is that, all else being roughly equal, a 4-8kg increase in bell size is going to have a much bigger effect on power generation per rep than a slightly higher velocity/shorter rep time (within the range that a person can actually increase speed in a KB ballistic lift). Of course, by qualifying with "all else being equal" I'm waving away a lot of factors with the assumption that they aren't going to vary much (the height of the snatch lockout for example) or that any variation won't be significant.

The only way to truly measure the power output of a swing or a snatch is to have a timestamped forceplate under the lifter with a timestamp video.

A lot of information can be derived from the accelerometer (and if I did have a forceplate and camera, I 'd definitely have an accelerometer on there for data gathering too).

These together would allow us to see how much drive is coming from the hips alone (with no additional force from the pull) or, mostly in the snatch, how much you were pulling up with the arm...

...Your arm is a rope, don't confuse flight time with the time it takes for you to generate your force into the floor.

One of my assumptions is that flight time doesn't vary much. You can move the bell a little faster with a lighter weight, but not by a lot and therefore the effect of bell weight is much more than the effect of bell velocity. So the quote above raises the issue that maybe flight time isn't a good enough proxy for the actual application of force at the hips. Does that force application time vary with different weights to a significant enough degree to outweigh the effect of a higher mass? I don't know the actual answer, but I'm a little doubtful, just because the times involved are so short. We're talking a fraction of a second vs. a slightly bigger fraction of a second.

But now I'm getting lost in the mathematical weeds again, and my concern is more with practical training applications. The article posted by @watchnerd made the point that heavier bells are not always better and the reasons I agree with that are mostly not related to power. Sure, there's the extreme case of swinging bells you can barely get above knee height. But often it's more a matter of sticking with a bell you comfortably own and can be aggressive with, or moving up to a bell that's more of a challenge. With 8kg jumps between bells, there's often a big gap there, although with 4 or even 2kg jumps it's less of an issue. And of course there are lots of transition/break in strategies for increasing bell size, and lots of programming around multiple bell sizes in the same session or program.

When I'm choosing what bell to use, I mostly don't care whether it's the optimal size for power. I am more likely to consider whether a heavier bell will:
--Distort my technique to an unsafe or unpleasant degree.
--Fit my current training goals and whether I have planned around incorporating it.
--Make it impossible to complete my planned session, sustain a consistent output throughout the session, or complete it at my desired RPE.
--Be sustainable within the context of my overall training. Am I physically prepared to absorb the greater stress of the heavier bell, or will it leave me feeling beat up?
--Be fun or otherwise satisfying to use.
--Teach me something useful.

 

[Anna C]

Does that force application time vary with different weights to a significant enough degree to outweigh the effect of a higher mass?

I made this video a while back for a similar discussion. Very little difference in flight time, to my eye (and feel) from 40 kg down to 8 kg...

 

[Ryan T]

When I'm choosing what bell to use, I mostly don't care whether it's the optimal size for power. I am more likely to consider whether a heavier bell will:
--Distort my technique to an unsafe or unpleasant degree.
--Fit my current training goals and whether I have planned around incorporating it.
--Make it impossible to complete my planned session, sustain a consistent output throughout the session, or complete it at my desired RPE.
--Be sustainable within the context of my overall training. Am I physically prepared to absorb the greater stress of the heavier bell, or will it leave me feeling beat up?
--Be fun or otherwise satisfying to use.
--Teach me something useful.

Pure gold @Steve W.

When I incorporate heavier than working bells, doesn’t have to be perfect, but it does have to be safe. The rest will refine itself with time and practice (and patience).

Many times when I’ve worked on teaching a new trainee the 2h swing, I will actually ask them to just try to get to navel height after they’ve displayed good DL technique and mechanics.

Men especially, seem to try to muscle the bell up with their shoulders trying to get the bell to chest or eye height. Many ladies conversely feel like there’s no way they can get a bell that high because their arms aren’t strong enough, but unless they’re already an athlete, they don’t engage their hip hinge and drive. If I give a new trainee the cue to start by just getting it to the navel, it seems to cut some of that out. It also keeps their lats in engaged.

 

[ali]

@Anna C ...a perfect demo of gravity.

There is no observable difference in the bell's speed because there is no difference in the bell's speed. Velocity is independent of mass....with no other forces acting on it.

With no other forces acting on it...were there any?

 

[Ap0c]

@Anna C ...a perfect demo of gravity.

There is no observable difference in the bell's speed because there is no difference in the bell's speed. Velocity is independent of mass....with no other forces acting on it.

With no other forces acting on it...were there any?

Speaking strictly, there must be, since the kettlebell is stationary at the top and does not fall straight down. Part of this is that the practitioner must pull in with their arms lest they fly out of their socket. If this force is always perpendicular to the bell's trajectory, it does no work and does not increase the speed of the bell. It merely acts to change its direction.

Making detailed calculations about this is made complicated by the hinge. This drags the shoulders and allows that force to be non-perpendicular, thereby giving the arms the capacity to change the speed of the bell. This is the only way you could get give it energy in the first place if all you do with your arms is pull radially without changing shoulder position in the socket. For those thinking about a strict lateral raise as a counterexample, you can do work because of where your fingers contact the weight. they actually push the weight along its trajectory. Like a shadow swing in reverse.

All this is to say that since Anna's upswings all take a similar amount of time, this really does speak to @Steve W.'s point. His "approximations" are exact when the practitioner actually obtains a float without having to suddenly counter it at the last second so that it does not launch in some direction (perhaps out of the practitioner's hands). The thing is, we are taught to swing the bell and project power forward, and so I think even a good float must have some of this counteraction for the swing to be properly hardstyle.

In times where it is difficult to theorize, particularly when there are fine details that are hard to quantify the size of, I think measurements are the way forward.

 

[Steve Freides]

@watchnerd, I like any post that uses the expression “fancy pants.” (I’ve also seen it spelled with a hyphen.)

IMHO, the very heavy Kb swing seems a reasonable substitute for barbell speed deadlifts. I don’t train either so my comments stop there.

-S-

 

[Kozushi]

But weren't there some real high class deadlifters who 2 hand swung very heavy kettlebells and said they really helped their deadlifts? Seems there is some proof out there that the very heavy swings are indeed beneficial.

 

[watchnerd]

But weren't there some real high class deadlifters who 2 hand swung very heavy kettlebells and said they really helped their deadlifts? Seems there is some proof out there that the very heavy swings are indeed beneficial.

"It's always what you aren't doing"

Dan John also talks about how loaded carries are beneficial, in part, because so few do them.

An athlete that has reaped 95% of the benefit of their prime modality can, yes, gain some benefit by doing all sorts of modalities that help them close the gap on that last few percent.

Other stories of similar nature I've heard:

--NFL teams doing ballet
--Rugby teams doing Pilates

Me, personally, I do yoga to help with Olympic weightlifting. I even improved my snatch lockout from doing biceps curls.

Could heavy swings help a powerlifter looking for that "next accessory" lift to help lockout? I don't have any problem believing that.

Does that mean that heavy swings are a *substitute* for heavy deadlifts?

No.

If it were, Strongfirst wouldn't need a deadlift program.

 

[Colin Stewart]

Anna, thanks for the video.

I'd agree that there is a 'little' difference in flight time, but the most apparent thing is (if you view the 40kg reps and then jump straight to the 8kg reps) is the difference in the hinge speed/expression. It's hard to see (because the reps are very good) but it is there.

Whilst we're all geeking on the science and have a good video to look at, notice Anna's body angle on the 40 vs the 8. Yes there are other forces acting on the bell, otherwise it will fly off on an arc forwards. As you swing heavy you have to have a greater angle at the ankles to allow for your body to counter the forward projection of the bell (and the converse is true in the hinge/hole, you need a greater forward shin angle).

All this said, we're talking about 10ths of a second.

And... in all this chat we've never defined what a 'heavy' swing is. Give any SFG enough training time and most gents will find a 48kg 'not to heavy' for 2HS, most ladies the 36/40kg.

Andy Bolton swinging a 48kg, I don't think that's heavy for him.
A 52kg female Aerial Circus athlete swinging a 36kg, that is heavy.

Is there value to 'heavy' swings? Yes, but it depends on the goal.
Is there a point of diminishing returns where you should explore the barbell? Yep.

 

[SteveR]

Yup, swings are a neat package of energy conservation.
Most of the recent months I've trained outside in my garden on grass. Always my preferred option. Been fortunate with the weather that it feels unusual to battle my way through the clutter of my garage to find my winter training spot but so it has been that rain has forced me into it.

Concrete floors give better energy return than grass.
There's a good few reps in difference, too.

Obvious but not really considered.

For testing purposes, is it cheating to preferentially select floor surface?
Daft, yes but you know, very real.

Like track times...surface matters: grass/track for training/impact considerations. And grass is slower.

Absolutely, we are governed by laws of energy conservation.

This is THE thing for me....low impact elastic training. And the aim of all what SF advocates through technique and details of the swing....timing and the quest for perfection. In so doing, the result is greater transfer of kinetic energy to potential elastic strain energy of the backswing. The more efficient that exchange, the better transfer of power.

Floor surface energy absorption is very real...same with pushups on padded flooring versus concrete

 

[Adachi]

Anna, thanks for the video.

Same.

So, there goes my argument - (h/t) * w, doesn't work - insofar as the speed is approximately uniform. I guess i'd wanna know about muscle activation durations and intensities.

I really enjoyed the 'take your kettlebell to the beach day' Newsletter. and I intend on trying it out. but, I suppose in order to gauge snatch power output, in the same way, I'd have to throw the kettlebell up in the vertical and measure how high it flies. I don't reckon I'll be trying that any time soon.

in which case - my mind's eye turns back to which energy systems are being principally employed - which draws on the snatch speed dropping during the specified period of time. and I find that to be an acceptable proxy.

And, this causes me to reformulate my thinking on Heavy Kettlebells and their value.
The Work vs. Rest continuum will configure and calibrate your results - or lack thereof - for you.
For me and my metabolic goals - the heavier the bell - the lower reps and longer rest, I'll take.
But, swearing them off entirely? no bueno.

 

[watchnerd]

in which case - my mind's eye turns back to which energy systems are being principally employed - which draws on the snatch speed dropping during the specified period of time. and I find that to be an acceptable proxy.

You lost me on the energy as it relates to snatch drop speed.

Anaerobic ATP gas tank is pretty much drained after 30 seconds of hard effort (e.g. hard reps that total < 30 seconds), or even quicker at RPE 9+. After that starts to taper off, you're getting into other energy systems.

The snatch drop speed, on the other hand, will be a really short duration in comparison.

Seems like it would be a rounding error compared to total set duration?

For me, I can tell when I'm running out of ATP because my power output starts to nose dive and the reps just stop being so snappy...

 

[Adachi]

@watchnerd

I suppose that the claim would be:
Any slowing of tempo is an indication that CP is not keeping up and that the hand-off to Glycolysis is occurring.

And I can test this at some point - but - I imagine that my tempo would slow much sooner snatching the 32k, than the 24k. I'm not even sure I can snatch the 40k at all for testing. but I could test the 16k. so maybe I make 3 30-second clips.

16kg bell snatch - 30-second test.
24kg bell snatch - 30-second test.
32kg bell snatch - 30-second test.

and then see when the tempo of snatches sags. likely the 20 to 30-second window will come into play, somehow.
and the suitability claim would be - if I sail right through 30 seconds with the 16kg bell - it's too light.
if I can't make it to 20 seconds maintaining an initial tempo with the 32kg bell then it's too heavy.

the test having to do with the claim that ...
the increasing level of glycolysis and acidosis reduces the speed of the repetitions.

This seems to be an indirect measure - because it seems to ask how big the CP tank is. not the more direct question - which weight are you able to expend the most work against in the shortest fraction of time.

how many repeats would I get before a change in tempo?
would the tempo be consistent throughout the 30-second window?
maybe I'll find out.

But, as far as the appropriateness of using larger and larger weights, I'll reiterate - that has a lot more to do with how rest and recovery are going.

 

[watchnerd]

@watchnerd

I suppose that the claim would be: any slowing of tempo is an indication that CP is not keeping up and that the hand-off to Glycolysis is impending.

And I can test this at some point - but - I imagine that my tempo would slow much sooner snatching the 32k, than the 24k. I'm not even sure I can snatch the 40k at all for testing. but I could test the 16k. so maybe I make 3 30-second clips.

16kg bell snatch - 30-second test.
24kg bell snatch - 30-second test.
32kg bell snatch - 30-second test.

and then see when the tempo of snatches sags. likely the 20 to 30 second window will come into play, somehow.

how many repeats would I get?
would the tempo be consistent throughout the 30-second window?
maybe I'll find out.

In weightlifting, when doing competition prep conditioning, we keep the time limit fixed (usually at 1 minute, 30 seconds if your coach is a sadist), and scale the weight up.

This mimics worst case scenario meet conditions where you have to follow yourself on the platform.

So it goes something like:

Snatch at 90%
Rest 1 min
Snatch at 95%
Rest 1 min
Snatch at 100%
Rest 1 min
Snatch at 102%
Rest 1 min
etc

Keep scaling up until you start missing lifts.

If you fail a lift, you stay at that weight. If you fail 3x in a row, you're done for the day.

I've tried the same protocol with double KB cleans and it works fine for 4-8 kg increments (although the % jumps are bigger), but you need a big bell collection or the ability to micro-load.

1/3 of the exercise is physical conditioning, 2/3 is mental, trying to teach you to dig deep into your reserves and harness aggression as you get more stressed out.

 

[Kozushi]

"It's always what you aren't doing"

Dan John also talks about how loaded carries are beneficial, in part, because so few do them.

An athlete that has reaped 95% of the benefit of their prime modality can, yes, gain some benefit by doing all sorts of modalities that help them close the gap on that last few percent.

Other stories of similar nature I've heard:

--NFL teams doing ballet
--Rugby teams doing Pilates

Me, personally, I do yoga to help with Olympic weightlifting. I even improved my snatch lockout from doing biceps curls.

Could heavy swings help a powerlifter looking for that "next accessory" lift to help lockout? I don't have any problem believing that.

Does that mean that heavy swings are a *substitute* for heavy deadlifts?

No.

If it were, Strongfirst wouldn't need a deadlift program.

Absolutely not a replacement, hehe. Of course!

I have a good friend who is way better at lifting weights than I am, by far, and interestingly he has switched from deadlifting nearly 700lbs to doing kettlebell cleans, presses, swings and some ab roller type terrifically hard bodyweight stuff. He can already clean and press with better technique than me, and can do heavier weight, and he has only been doing kettlebells for a few months. (He thinks kettlebells up to 40kg is all he needs to stay as strong as he wants, which is something to note coming from an accomplished deadlifter like himself.) But my point here is that the amateur deadlifter can kettlebell quite well in a very short time but the amateur kettlebeller (me) can't deadlift particularly heavily.

On the other point, I'm convinced cross training is a good thing. I can't train full out in judo every day, but I can train full out if I do different combat sports on different days, since the strain on the body is different for each sport. Movements that are more used in fencing and less in the others I can still use in judo and kendo, and vice versa all three ways. This gives me an "edge". I can pull off some unique moves. So, all three sports benefit from the cross training, and of course my cardio is fantastic! I think this logic holds true even at very high levels of competition, like you mentioned with ballet for footballers etc...

 

[Reuben B]

Assuming safety isn't compromised. I don't see why heavy (Weights beyond peak power or that don't achieve the standard height) swings would not be considered a valid exercise. People get stronger with rack pulls (heavier than max, partial ROM) and dynamic deadlifts (dare I call them fast grinds?) Weightlifters use a variety of heavy pulls to improve their snatch and clean.
It's just an issue with choosing the correct exercise for the individual and knowing how far to take it.
Your goal is specifically to increase your maximal swing to chest height power. Your current best is with a 40kg swung at 4.5m/s peak. Training with the 40 is the best way to guarantee adaption will transfer to your goal. But at some point that will become stale. You can utilize set, rep changes. But you may need to move away from specificity to encourage further improvement. The farther you go the better chance you have of spurring new adaption, but the less chance you have of those adaptations improving goal performance. In the same theme as minimal effective dose, why change to 56kg swung at 2.5m/s if you can create enough variety with 48kg swung at 3.5m/s? Improvement in which one has greater certainty of improving the speed at which I can swing the 40, or the ability to swing the 44 also at 4.5m/s? In that way I agree with the original article posted. But that author appeared to assume you were already doing deadlifts (high force, low velocity) and olympic lifts (medium force and velocity) which makes heavy swings likely redundant. If you are only using kettlebells, they may have more of a role.

 

[watchnerd]

But that author appeared to assume you were already doing deadlifts (high force, low velocity) and olympic lifts (medium force and velocity) which makes heavy swings likely redundant. If you are only using kettlebells, they may have more of a role.

Yes, I think that is the assumption given the source of the article is a 'box' type / Crossfit-esque gym, where barbells would be part of the program.

If someone wants to be a "kettlebell only" person, it seems like there are some philosophical decisions to be made.

 

[acutaiar12]

My take is that it just depends on your goal and what you’re willing to do.

You can get a brutal workout with a 24kg bell, such as the USSS Snatch test, AND you can get an equally great workout with a 48kg bell doing either Timed or Timeless Sinister.

The best workout is the one you do. If you like swinging heavy, do it. If you don’t, don’t. The adaptations may be different, but we’re all getting better.

 

[Hung]

Any slowing of tempo is an indication that CP is not keeping up and that the hand-off to Glycolysis is occurring.

It is a good guide if you use it with the lift and the weight you are familiar with.