Other/Mixed The Kneesovertoesguy - what do you think?

[Pasibrzuch]

Hello,
recently the almighty algorithm suggested me videos from this channel. Long story short: the main exercises the person suggests are atg split squats, nordic curls, tibialis curls, calf raises, slantboard squats, seated good morning. As you can guess a lot of, but carefully progressed knees-over-toes movement. Such an approach is supposed to bulletproof knees and provide longevity for every one. Quite a lot of things he says falls in with Strongfirst Resillient - improper movements done properly.
My question is: has anybody used his programs or even just the exercise selection and can report any progress benefits? I must say I easily fall for any product that promotes longevity. Some years ago I bought into a channel that promoted abusing myofascial release and transverse movement as the remedy for all the ailments. Almost all the training time I spent on it, I consider wasted. Don't want it to happen again.

If nobody used his programs/exercise selection, what do you think about it? Legit or not?

 

[Steve W.]

No knowledge of the this person or his programs, but I do some similar types of exercises, such as lots of variations of calf raises and tibialis curls. Actually, I'm not exactly sure what a tibialis curl is. But I do various kinds of toe raises with my heels on a step and the toes hanging over the edge, and "toe lifts" (standing on a step, hook one foot through the handle of a KB on the floor and raise the knee of the weighted leg as high as possible), loaded carries on my toes, and walking backward on my toes (and walking around with my weight on the outside edges of my feet). I also do a lot of drills with the toes flexed and knees over toes, such as:
--KB hack squats
--Hindu squats
--Cossacks
--OS leopard crawling
--Goblet squats where I sit in the bottom position and raise up on my toes
--Terminal knee extensions with a band behind the knee

I also mix in a bunch of band exercises, with the bands wrapped around the foot in various ways, so I can move my foot and ankle around against band tension, and just relax and let the band tension pull on my foot in various positions.

Mostly, these are extras that I keep in regular rotation, but don't program in an organized progressive way. I have grade 4 arthritis in my ankles and knees, and some torn tendons and ligaments in my feet (from a lifetime of basketball injuries and wear and tear), and I do find that these types of drills help with reducing pain and maintaining function.

 

[Steve Freides]

I have not used his system, but my own progress with knee, foot, and ankle issues has followed his basic philosophy. I think it's worth a try if you feel you need it.

-S-

 

[Don Fairbanks]

He was on a recent Mark Bell podcast. Closest thing to his system that I use came from Pavel Macek's hack squat article.

 

[bluejeff]

I don't know what progression system he uses, but the idea of knees over toes is perfectly fine. It falls in line with the adage "use it or lose it." I would add that all the exercises listed can be scaled back for people who need them to be less intense. The name of the game is always "appropriate loading and progression."

I have seen good effects with split squats for instance. They kept my pistols very strong, and the knees-over-toes position will help with dorsiflexion, which is the main problem I see people having with deep/full pistols.

 

[BrianCF]

Can I have one more fitness guru I'm not following for $800, Alex?

 

[Benjamin Renaud]

I've used uphill backwards walking in the past for VMO activation instead of banded TKE and I recently saw that it was one of the things he advocated to start doing knees over toes. I'm also convinced that putting adequate progressive stress on a tendon will be beneficial, not shying away from it. For example slantboard squats are often used to treat PFPS in rehab programs.

With that said I haven't seen his whole program but it did pique my curiosity.

 

[bluejeff]

Can I have one more fitness guru I'm not following for $800, Alex?

I feel slightly compelled to add that if you’re really interested in improving yourself physically, you can find the information you need to do what people have done for you by writing programs for you to buy.

While I agree that there is an abundance of fitness gurus out there, there is an equal abundance of people who’d rather pay someone to design a program for them. The cost of that program is another story entirely.

So if someone wants to buy a program written by the knees over toes guy, I think that’s fine. However, I would say it’s likely that you can find the information to do most of what he does on your own, if you’re willing to spend the time looking for it. Sometimes it ends up being faster to just buy a program too; you’re really just paying for the time and energy that person spent researching and designing said program.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

I feel slightly compelled to add that if you’re really interested in improving yourself physically, you can find the information you need to do what people have done for you by writing programs for you to buy.

While I agree that there is an abundance of fitness gurus out there, there is an equal abundance of people who’d rather pay someone to design a program for them. The cost of that program is another story entirely.

So if someone wants to buy a program written by the knees over toes guy, I think that’s fine. However, I would say it’s likely that you can find the information to do most of what he does on your own, if you’re willing to spend the time looking for it. Sometimes it ends up being faster to just buy a program too; you’re really just paying for the time and energy that person spent researching and designing said program.

I like what he is doing, and also thought the Jeopardy thing was pretty funny.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Thank you for all your answers!
I've been doing the exercises mentioned in my first post with the addition of assisted hacksquat for 2 weeks already. My knee feels somewhat better - it no longer pops, provided I contract all the muscles in the right sequence and generally feels less awkward. Same goes for my left hip-flexor. While lifting my left leg my lumbar spine used to pop so loud and feel so strange that it was even disgusting to some degree. However, if I tense properly the right side of my abs (a weak link) the issue disappears. It teaches me a valuable lesson how strength is not (only) 'raw strength' but also an ability to correctly sequence muscle contractions ("strength is a skill").

Can I have one more fitness guru I'm not following for $800, Alex?

However, I would say it’s likely that you can find the information to do most of what he does on your own, if you’re willing to spend the time looking for it.

Totally agree. My questions was more about whether people here were successful with this particular exercise selection.
I think that if you know basic Strongfirst/Easy Strength principles you can easily create an effective program yourself.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I can't really say I'm going to watch enough of him to give a fair assessment, but I think the basic message is fine. On the other hand, I think there are a ton of things the general population can do to improve knee health other than emphasize "knees over toes" - the #1 thing being not heavy and having good hip and ankle mobility.

 

[JamesPTA]

the #1 thing being not heavy and having good hip and ankle mobility.

Agreed!

The knee is mostly a "dummy joint," meaning it does whatever the ankle and hip tell it to do. Most injuries and poor knee health arise from poor stability and/or mobility of both the ankle or the hip. Other than good VMO strength and hamstring strength ratio compared to the quads, very little needs to be done specifically to the knee.

 

[rvaldrich]

Hey! I think we have the same Computer Overlords! I got a gazillion suggestions of his videos too!

So I did buy his program and I've been using it largely as a way to get my dad to move (repeated attempts to get him to lift weights have been met with no to negative success).
He has three programs - Xero, Dense, and...something else, I forget - Xero is equipmentless and is pretty good. It's mostly lower body, specifically the calf. It's low stress and I think could fit on variety days or even later in the day with great ease. Heck, keep the intensity on the low end and it could make a dandy warm-up.
Dense is a bit more traditional training, with set exercises and reps and blabbity-blah. I haven't employed it yet, but it seems like Xero with dumbells/barbell.
The third program seems like just a greater step. I haven't reviewed it too closely just yet.

I think a good example is the emphasis on the anterior tibialis (the muscle on the front of the calf/shin). You lean your butt against a wall, knees straight, feet flat. You raise your toes for 25 total reps (sets aren't even mentioned). If it's too easy, you move your feet farther out. Too hard, move them closer to the wall. Keep going farther until flexability becomes an issue. There's a doodad toe-raiser-thingie that he uses in the two more advanced programs, but no links to buy it (Google reveals some seemingly simply DIY options).
Anyway, after that exercise, you turn around and go right into the next one (a not-quite-standard calf raise). Most lifts are done EMOTM for low reps and mid-to-moderate time, or for total reps (usually 25 or 50).

The weight goals are very reasonable: goals are listed in terms of % of bodyweight (usually start at 5 or 10% and getting up to 25% for upper body and 50% for lower body). There are a couple of esoteric equipment pieces (the aforementioned toe-raiser), but with healthy emphasis on simple replacements.

TL;DR - I like it. It's not gonna make me give up my Kettlebells but it's got some very clever exercises that I absolutely plan to sprinkle into my regular routine. It seems like a terrific weekend warrior sort of training program, and the simple layout and approach has helped get my dad off his a$$ which was worth the money right there.

 

[Denny Phillips]

The details of my issue with my left knee aren't important, I just know that medical science hasn't figured it out yet. I should mention that one of my former football players is an orthopod and he x-rayed it and couldn't find anything. I have not had an MRI and my family doctor maintains that it is iliotibial band syndrome although I don't think so.

After running into Ben Patrick's videos on YouTube I started doing the lower level suggestions; tibialis raises, backward walking, and atg split squats. What immediately leapt out to me was how the tibialis one my left leg was lagging. Performing the three aforementioned movements makes the knee feel better upon completion and I will likely enroll in the Zero program in the next couple of weeks. I would opt for the MRI but orthos in this area of Ohio are keen to cut. I know that I don't have to submit to surgery and the knee is just an occasional nuisance, for now. Based on his account Ben's knee was a mess.

 

[kiwipete]

Hello,
recently the almighty algorithm suggested me videos from this channel. Long story short: the main exercises the person suggests are atg split squats, nordic curls, tibialis curls, calf raises, slantboard squats, seated good morning. As you can guess a lot of, but carefully progressed knees-over-toes movement. Such an approach is supposed to bulletproof knees and provide longevity for every one. Quite a lot of things he says falls in with Strongfirst Resillient - improper movements done properly.
My question is: has anybody used his programs or even just the exercise selection and can report any progress benefits? I must say I easily fall for any product that promotes longevity. Some years ago I bought into a channel that promoted abusing myofascial release and transverse movement as the remedy for all the ailments. Almost all the training time I spent on it, I consider wasted. Don't want it to happen again.

If nobody used his programs/exercise selection, what do you think about it? Legit or not?

Kia ora! We have the same algorithm at work on youtube ?

I have not bought the programme but I have had a VERY positive experience with bw ATG split squats.

These are a game changer for hip flexibility for me. The traditional lunge position does nothing for me - but the ATG Sq has worked magic!

Briefly played with nordic curl progressions but TBH they don't align with my current needs and goals.

 

[The Crazy Cloud]

I actually really like some of his ideas, particularly the emphasis on triple flexion. Ive added regressed nordic curls, tib excersises and extra hip flexor work (lifting kettlbells with toes like somone above mentioned) i was already doing a lot of 'knees over toes' work in pistols and hacksquats but i like his ATG split squat.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

I'm some time into doing the exercises, so here's my update.
For some reason atg split squats and seated good mornings irritated my back, and eventually I got injured. Something went wrong with my lower back during the latter exercise and I couldn't walk or sit for a few days.
By no means am I saying it's the fault of the program. I have a very peculiar limitations in my lowerback - cannot do upward facing dog, back bridges and other lumbar extensions exercises without pain. Straddle stretch/split (seated good morning being its strength version) irritates my back lightly.
I treat this as as opportunity to figure out what's wrong with my back. My osteopath already fixed things, so I can do what I did before (kettlebells and Muay Thai). However, KOTG exercises are beyond my reach at the moment.
Before you start any of these 'improper' exercises - please, be careful, so you don't end up in pain.

On a good side, I started practicing hack squats (assisted and bodyweight) every day. I feel my right knee getting better. I think the key is maintaing tension in your hamstrings and glutes, pulling yourself actively down.

What is more, I figured a diy kettlebell set-up for nordics and tib raises. Will record a video and share here in my free time.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

For some reason atg split squats and seated good mornings irritated my back, and eventually I got injured. Something went wrong with my lower back during the latter exercise and I couldn't walk or sit for a few days.
By no means am I saying it's the fault of the program.

Seated good mornings and split squats have never been friendly to me either. Split squats are one of the few exercises I can COUNT on to give me knee issues (and I almost never have knee issues), and seated good mornings almost always lead to a back issue.

I've had much better luck with regular Bulgarian Split Squats, 45 degree or regular back extensions (aka 'hyperextensions'), glute ham bench, and regular good mornings. I haven't had any back issues to speak of for the past decade (knock on wood).

Unlike you, if I was prescribed them I would absolutely blame the program. Are there people that can do them without issue? Of course. Am I the only one who has a problem with them? Obviously not.

 

[the hansenator]

I think the key is maintaing tension in your hamstrings and glutes, pulling yourself actively down.

I can say from experience that this is important.

I went to physical therapy for knee pain and the PT gave me a couple of hamstring exercises that cleared it right up.

Also, yesterday I was doing some step ups and had some pain in the left knee. When I realized I had lost tension in the back of the leg the rest of the reps were pain free.

 

[bluejeff]

I'm some time into doing the exercises, so here's my update.
For some reason atg split squats and seated good mornings irritated my back, and eventually I got injured. Something went wrong with my lower back during the latter exercise and I couldn't walk or sit for a few days.
By no means am I saying it's the fault of the program. I have a very peculiar limitations in my lowerback - cannot do upward facing dog, back bridges and other lumbar extensions exercises without pain. Straddle stretch/split (seated good morning being its strength version) irritates my back lightly.
I treat this as as opportunity to figure out what's wrong with my back. My osteopath already fixed things, so I can do what I did before (kettlebells and Muay Thai). However, KOTG exercises are beyond my reach at the moment.
Before you start any of these 'improper' exercises - please, be careful, so you don't end up in pain.

On a good side, I started practicing hack squats (assisted and bodyweight) every day. I feel my right knee getting better. I think the key is maintaing tension in your hamstrings and glutes, pulling yourself actively down.

What is more, I figured a diy kettlebell set-up for nordics and tib raises. Will record a video and share here in my free time.

Good on you for noticing that your back needs attention.

With many "improper" exercises, the keys to getting better at them in many cases are:

1) dosage- many people think something "looks easy" so they go heavier or into a deeper range of motion than is appropriate for their body. Sometimes they don't think it looks easy, and they still go overboard at first. Oftentimes the rom and intensity should start very easy. Like VERY easy. Especially if you know you have joint issues. E.g. seated good mornings with NO weight. Split squats with NO weight and easy range of motion. If those are what was being done and back/knee issues light up, then I'd say you have bigger issues to be concerned about.

2)as @the hansenator said, making sure your muscles are activating properly, and that you are using biomechanics proper to the movement. By this I do not mean some esoteric activation technique, just that your muscles are working synergystically.

@Boris Bachmann I believe this program is something you just buy off a website, unless @Pasibrzuch was given a program specific to them. Imo programs like that need to have detailed disclaimers and sections devoted to things like "go easier than you think at first....."