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Kettlebell The logic behind Pavel's programms (no upper pulls ?)

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Andrej SK

Andrej SK

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Hi guys,

I don't want you to take me wrong. I've been doing S&S program for 2 months now and feel really blessed by it. I'm currently on 28 kg and could see results on my body and plan to continue. And I also admire and appreciate Pavel.
There is just one thing that keeps bothering me. You know, you read that there are these basic human movements such as lower pull (Swing, Dead lift), lower push (Squat, Lunge), upper push (overhead press, bench, push ups) and upper pull (rows, pull ups). However, considering Pavel's basic minimalistic programms (S&S, ROP, Naked Warrior, Original Program Minimum) my impression is that upper pull is always missing:

S&S: Swing (lower pull) + TGU (lower push, upper push)
ROP: Clean and Press (lower pull, upper push, little bit of lower pusch), Snatch (lower pull, upper push) - I know that there is also Pull Up in programming, however, as I understand this is just optional, it is not a must
Naked Warrior: One hand Push Up (upper push) + Pistol Squat (lower push)
Original Program Minimum: Swings (lower pull) + Bent Press (upper push)

What is more, even the 6 basic KB exercises that are bread and butter for this movement (Swing, Goblet Squat, Clean, Overhead Press, Snatch, TGU) they all lack that upper pull !

Is my understanding wrong ? Am I missing something ? Isn't working out upper push without upper pull even a basis for some sort of upper body imbalance ?

I know it is mentioned often that by packing your shoulders you activate your lats a bit, but is it enough ? And then, as far as I noticed, adding any exercises to Pavel's programs is rather negatively accepted in this forum (as breaching the programs rules)

My goal is to have some routine which I can use on a long-term basis to be generally fit and well built. I like Kettlebells a lot and I like Pavel but I'm not happy not to see there that upper pull :) I would like to understand why such a man as Pavel and that whole KB stream just omits it. Isn't it needed ?

Thank you for clarification of this topic to me !
 
The first error was trying to box nature into categories for anything other than understanding. Don't use a comprehension tool for an application.

With respect to your goal: do some pull ups or rows if you feel that you are missing something.
 
aciampa said:
The first error was trying to box nature into categories for anything other than understanding. Don't use a comprehension tool for an application.

With respect to your goal: do some pull ups or rows if you feel that you are missing something.
Click to expand...
Aciampa, I see that you completely didn't get it. I want to understand the logic behind such programming and omitting upper pulls (lats-focused). Because if someone can explain that they are not necessary here and don't lay basis for imbalance, I am ok not doing them. So could you please "box this topic into some understanding" ? Your explanation wasn't really comprehensible. Thank you !
 
@Andrej SK my apologies... when you create arbitrary categories to describe nature, such as the "basic human movements", they don't always apply in practice.

Claiming that you need a pull to balance a push, is not the same thing as saying that you need to do pull ups do balance your upper body when doing get ups, bent presses, or 1-h C&P.

It has been our observation that properly packing the shoulders during KB ballistics, and incorporating the entire body when moving seems to prevent whatever imbalance you are discussing.
 
aciampa said:
@Andrej SK my apologies... when you create arbitrary categories to describe nature, such as the "basic human movements", they don't always apply in practice.

Claiming that you need a pull to balance a push, is not the same thing as saying that you need to do pull ups do balance your upper body when doing get ups, bent presses, or 1-h C&P.

It has been our observation that properly packing the shoulders during KB ballistics, and incorporating the entire body when moving seems to prevent whatever imbalance you are discussing.
Click to expand...
@aciampa No, I apologize for being a little ironic. So do you believe that packing the shoulders can do the job and no pull ups or rows as an additional exercise are neccessary if such compound exercises as Swing, TGU or 1h CnP are involved ?
 
Andrej SK said:
@aciampa No, I apologize for being a little ironic. So do you believe that packing the shoulders can do the job and no pull ups or rows as an additional exercise are neccessary if such compound exercises as Swing, TGU or 1h CnP are involved ?
Click to expand...

This isn't your original question.

Let me be clear: if you are not tested on, or signed up for event or sport that includes pulling; and you perform the mentioned movements using our principles then, no, you do not need to do pulls for upper body balance. (Whatever that is.)
 
I don't know the logic but I trust the logic.

Add in some pullups if it makes you feel better.
 
@Andrej SK, pullups are an option in the Rite of Passage. They are also a good option in PTTP - I did some of my PTTP that way: press, pullup, deadlift. They are also covered in some depth in our bodyweight course and instructor certifications. We _like_ pullups.

If you hang around here long enough, you'll hear stories of people who, by practicing the techniques we teach, have achieved great numbers on pullups without training pullups. I'm one personal example - I went from 2 to 12 pullups without ever touching a bar after a few months on by-the-book PTTP. It was only at that point that I decided to add them to my training, and I did weighted pullups for lower reps.

And if I may make a simple observation: That there are certain identifiable, basic human movement patterns doesn't mean one needs to train all of them, all the time. Being good a pullups is part of the What The Heck effect people often experience by training with StrongFirst's minimalist programs.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 
I agree that one-arm swings work the upper pull more than you would think.

Also, keep in mind that Pavel's PMs are (at least in my mind) intended to be "best bang for the buck" programs. S&S doesn't really "work" the chest (a little on the TGU), or the biceps (though probably more than you think on the swings), or the calves, or this or that individual muscle.

The point is generally a good balance of efficiency and effectiveness, the most for the least.

But I know what you mean that it seems there's a hole in the program because there's no obvious upper body pull, but I'll agree again that the one-arm swing does a good job, especially when you get to the 32kg and up.

Also remember that some exercises cover more than just one movement. A swing can count as both a hinge and a pull. The TGU can count as both a press and a loaded carry.
 
@Andrej SK
I'm the least experience answer in this stack, so I won't claim to explain the logic. But one thing I've observed in all the programs is something like a philosophical premise. I'd say it's something like:

Premise: Depth over breadth always. There are very nonlinear outsized benefits to extreme depth of focus and these benefits from the depths carry over to the shallower portions of other areas and allow you to dive deeply there as well.

This premise has several consequences. One of them is that you leave out everything you can, in order to focus more fully on movements you've chosen to dive deep with. You do this because the things you and your nervous system learns diving deep will carry over to the other movements. This is what is known at the "What the Heck" effect around here.

In this context of "how focused can we get", there is another important observation that is key to your question: that there are two (not 4, 5 or 7) basic categories of human movement: the Grind and the Ballistic. These categories are not defined by what your limbs are doing, but by how your fascia, muscles, and nervous system work together to complete the movement. (You'll notice that all the fundamental human movements you mentioned fit into one of these and usually both. And vice versa. It's a different way of looking at the problem) Once you learned a Ballistic movement deeply e.g. the swing, You're body will be move ballistically in other places. eg a broadjump. Similarly once you've learned to Grind, beautiful dead hang - like you are leveitating - pullups will be at your disposal.

This is a very different philosophy than the one that leads to the idea of "balancing" by broadening your focus to all the ways that your limbs can excerpt force.
 
Pavel's combo programs often are centered around low rep grinds + high rep quick lifts, he then offers certain exercises and rep schemes which you can use when performing the programs. You aren't locked into specific exercises, but he does give, best case suggestions and, as in the case of S&S, he is trying to dumb it down to the least common denominators for those of us who choose not to think, which i will say is an enormous relief. When you know that everyday you are simply doing 100 single arm swings and 10 TGUs and you're done - well ... for me ... that's heaven. He also presents other programming like the Fighter Pull-up Program which is specific to pullups (though you could use it for other exercises) and a basic GTG idea which can be used with practically any strength movement.

I would stick to his suggestions and once you reach the baseline standards, then either choose to continue or move to a different program. But like anything else, it all comes down to your objectives.

Though i will say this, the muscles utilized in a pull-up; brachii, brachioradialis, lats, teres major, etc. are all being hit in a program like S&S, when the movements are performed with proper technique. Though there is, of course, a range of motion and a static vs. dynamic tension difference for some of the muscle groups (lats), the muscles are being hit. My pull-ups do not fade one bit when I am focused on a non-pull-up program like S&S, or even ROP, as the negative portion of a press should be a pulling down of the bells with the lats.

It really comes down to focus and making sure you know what muscles are in use during the movements you are performing and making sure you are making every effort to contract the appropriate muscles - that is the real key to any strength movement - not just going thru the motions, but using the proper muscle contractions to dictate the motion - it makes an enormous difference.
 
Pavel Macek said:
Once you start 32kg+ one arm swings, you will get the answer - or your question will change, trust me.
Click to expand...

Trust him......

You can chuck in some pull ups too with S&S. There many related threads about running the fighter pull up program alongside S&S and in fact doing any other strength goal with a reduced S&S volume.

I absolutely see where you are coming from, wanting to do X whilst doing Y and still enjoy other favourite As and Bs. S&S allows for a degree of that flexibility depending on what it is you want to do alongside it, or do it as a stand alone. Or dip in, dip out, cycle it in with another. And many report here doing just that with rop. Personally speaking delving into why S&S works the way it does has given me the best education for my own quirks, frailties and idiosyncrasies and I would like to think a far better understanding of health generally and fitness, generally. Getting some personal insight into my positives and negatives has been a long time coming, at 52 I'm finally getting a grip. Of course that isn't to say you will experience the same or even want to. So do it as is, evaluate the process. Or do it with other pursuits, the focus on pull ups with S&S ticking along side by side. There is nothing wrong with S&S, it is just a matter of whether it is right for you at this time, or any other time.
 
Having just gone through the SFG cert I can tell you one thing. You will find your LATS. You will use them a lot! Even just working on SWINGS with the Static Stomp Deadlift you can get a serious LAT activation. Trust in the Strong First programming and you will be very strong.
 
As a huge advocate of pullups for all sort of reasons, I'll humbly add my two cents.

When it comes to the original Program Minimum, and in particular with S&S, these two plans were designed as the absolute, stripped down to the bare essentials least we had to do in order to attain a particular set of stated goals (in the case of the latter, Pavel even went so far as to say that this was part of the plan to ruin any excuse the practitioner might have for noncompliance). Between the TGU and solid one arm swings, and I suspect perhaps also the increased complexity of adding pulls into the mix and/or the likely reluctance of an out of shape novice to hoist his own bodyweight up up and away, pullups didn't make the cut.

As for Naked Warrior, remember that the conceit is that we have nothing to play with, excepting our own well-fed masses--not so much as a bar to hang off of. However, don't underestimate what it is properly performed, full tension one-arm pushups can do for us. Personal anecdote, many years ago I was chasing the coveted one-arm chinup, and seemed to be nowhere near that goal. During a long deployment period in a place where chinning was not an option, I practiced NW relentlessly. On my first morning back in the free world after a night of sleeping in my own bed again, mostly just for grins, I opted to see how far my progress had regressed on the bar wedged into the bathroom door. You can imagine my surprise and delight when the elusive one-arm chinup actually happened, with zero chins performed in weeks. YMMV, of course, but those lessons in tension contained in this classic tome can and do carry over immensely to our pulling.

When it comes to the Rite of Passage, well... I do feel that pullups maybe deserved a bit more emphasis than they received (for my students who have advanced to RoP, it's no option--male or female, you're gonna do those pulls in between the rungs or your press ladders on my watch). However, I do acknowledge that the focus of the programming is with the KB, with pulls serving in an ancillary role.

That said, also keep in mind that in most cases, nowhere is it written that we cannot add pullups into the mix if we feel it necessary. Just for example, S&S was intended to complement other athletic/strength goals, not hinder them.
 
Direct body feedback: When I started S&S in fairly out of shape state, I got muscle soreness in glutes and hamstrings AND in "upper pulling" muscles (lower traps, rhomboids, lats...). Recently moved up a bell size and again, sore in same places for a few days. This past week I have shifted to a more PM Squared program

Program Minimum [Squared] - StrongFirst

that includes snatches and bent press, back at my lower bell for the snatches. And again, upper pulling muscles are sore. I am doing it without dice etc but to the S&S template, just doing each pair of exercises on alternate days, keeping weight fairly heavy for me and strictly limiting volume, pretty much every day.

Question for those w/ much more expertise than I have: If incorporated some high pulls in the swing sets, would it still be S&S or not (because not to the letter as written?) or is this just an exercise in semantics? How/where to draw the line?
 
If it has been said already I apologize in advance, but in reality pressing the way Pavel and others have taught utilizes your lats on the downward movement. Imagining yourself doing a one armed pull-up on the negative on the press. My first time through the ROP I didn't do pull-ups yet my pull-up numbers improved.
 
I think a kettlebell practitioner can benefit from upper body pulling to "feel Lat engagement". Once you become familiar with packed shoulders and a tight back it becomes instinctive. Not everyone can find that safe powerful posture.

Back focused practice gets you used to the feeling and strengthens the packed shoulder and tight back position. I often use KB pullovers, band straight arm Lat pulldowns, band face pulls, shrug variations(hanging, handstand, scap. pushup, row shrug, dip shrug, barbell/KB/DB), bent over rows, and pull-ups to stretch, strengthen, and activate the shoulders and back.

The back can never be to strong.
Strong back = strongman.
 
This isn't rocket science. Pavel creates programs like these that require minimal time and equipment to develop and maintain General Physical Preparedness. He has said that numerous times. If someone feels they need some other exercise to enhance some ability, these programs allow for that.
 
I use to always think that I needed to do pull ups, and over the years I've had several injuries from doing them.
I don't blame the exercise, but I've learned that I don't need the exercise either.
A person on a different forum was talking about needing pull ups as a functional exercise. Then another person
piped in and said something that changed my thinking. That person said that in all their adult life, they never once needed
to pull themselves up over anything. (fence. wall, climb tree) And neither had I! Climb a ladder was the closest thing to
climbing anything I've needed to do in my adult life.
The TSC has weighted pullups, But that is SPP. Special prepared fitness for tactical careers (military, Leo, even fire fighter).
GPP to me is if I can do 5 to 10 bodyweight pull ups, then Why Risk Injuring Myself Again! To do more? And by simply doing
S&S and some barbell lifts, I can still easily do some pullups with out ever training them.
Get up, pick up, carry, push up or away, and even throw are things I often do. But pull myself up?

Al
 
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