The Surprising Truth About Sugar

Discussion in 'Diet and Nutrition' started by Hasbro, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. Hasbro

    Hasbro Triple-Digit Post Count

  2. Bauer

    Bauer More than 500 posts

    Thanks for sharing. My favourite part:
    Of course, as it says, it is not a health food and might cause problems with your teeth etc.
     
    Hasbro likes this.
  3. Oscar

    Oscar Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I found it interesting.

    One thing I didnt see addressed is the satiety that comes with carbs or other macronutrients. The paper made clear that if calories are the same, sugar doesn't play a role. However, when we don't live in a laboratory we have to decide for ourselves how much to eat, and I think that's the key element.
     
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  4. Hasbro

    Hasbro Triple-Digit Post Count

    About 5 weeks ago I went on a keto diet. I made it for 4 weeks but I couldn’t take it anymore. I never felt satisfied or had that “comfort” food feeling in my stomach. Yes I lost 15lbs in the first 2 weeks but then I quickly leveled off. But the main thing I noticed was I didn’t have near the energy as I did when I was eating more carbs and my workouts suffered a lot. I was also irritable all the time which isn’t like me. As soon as I added carbs back into my diets my energy level was back to normal, I felt satisfied after a meal and the irritability went away.

    Keto just didn’t suit me. I don’t eat a lot of sugar anyway and my carb intake is mostly from good/healthy carbs. In the 10 days that I’ve been off keto I haven’t put any of the weight back on and feel so much better. There were no cheat days with keto and now once a week I splurge on whatever I want. And every night before bedtime I have a spoonful of local raw honey which often also doubles as my dessert for the day. I’ll never do keto again. Give me sugar or give me death!
     
  5. LukeV

    LukeV More than 300 posts

    I've been keto on many occasions. The first time I experienced a whole range of symptoms, the full keto flu, patches of nausea, hunger, giddiness when exercising strenuously and marked loss in strength. But these symptoms have never recurred and with hindsight I think that first time also involved other changes.

    I would have been in significant calorie deficit because I just cut carbs rather than mindfully eating more fat and protein. Eg if you usually eat bacon, eggs and toast and just cut out the toast then you're 180 calories down just from that. These days I consciously eat more when in keto, substituting carbs rather than just cutting them.

    Plus that first time I was skipping meals because I hadn't properly identified low carb options, particularly when eating out. So I was not only keto but slipping into fasted states quite often.

    I think those factors were probably as much if not more in play than the keto itself.
     
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  6. william bad butt

    william bad butt More than 300 posts


    Hello, my name is Eric and I eat carbs! For me, Keto is only effective if I am sedentary or only training via easy aerobic activities. It does not work (for me) for serious strength or anaerobic endurance training. It makes me weak. Makes sense to me, it is partial starvation (carbohydrates). I'm still learning a lot about nutrition, but I like a well balanced diet with calorie dense real food. Steak, potatoes, eggs, rice, carrots, spinach, yogurt, milk (chocolate, my weakness), fish, orange juice, and way too many Cliff Bars!

    Eric
     
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  7. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    High Fat, High Protein, Low Carbohydrate Diet

    Based on the information indicates that you may have been on a high fat, high protein, low carbohydrate diet rather than a Ketogenic Diet.

    Sympton

    The fact that you didn't have "near the energy" as you did when you were eating more carbohydrates is an indication that you were "Glucose Dependent"; still reliant on glucose for energy.

    The fact that as soon as you added carbohydrate back into your diet, you felt better is a sign that "Glucose Dependent".

    You body was running off glucose but didn't have enough to make daily activities work let alone a training session.

    This usually occurs from consuming too much protein which is converted into glucose (gluconeogenesis). However, you weren't able to convert enough glucose from protein to meet energy demands.

    Keto Adapted

    A well formulated Ketogenic Diet shifts individual over using ketones. Once Keto Adapted, an individual energy levels go back to normal.

    Training On Keto

    The Ketogenic Diet requires modifying your approach to training. What works when for individual consuming a Traditional Western Diet, doesn't work well for those on a Ketogenic Diet.

    Resistance Training need to be maintained in the Phosphagen Energy System; sets of repetition performed in less that 30 seconds, with a set of repetition performed in 15 seconds or less being the sweet spot.

    Research also indicates that Keto Adapted individual Resistance Training is more effective when training session or kept short. With that said, shorter Resistance Training Session are more effective no matter what diet you are on.

    The Bulgarian Olympic Lifter proved the value of short training sessions.

    Lack Of Knowledge

    There is a definite learning curve to the Ketogenic Diet; it essentially turns everything upside down.

    Secondly, most individual don't realize that a different approach training on the Ketogenic Diet need to be implemented.

    I've been on the Ketogenic Diet for over three years now due to a metabolic condition. It took me about a year to get the Ketogenic Diet down and understand how to train on it.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
  8. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Ketogenic Diet Strength Training

    Initially, Strength Training did not work well for me on the Ketogenic Diet.

    As I just noted in the previous post, a different approach is required for Strength Training on the Ketogenic Diet. It took me about a year of reading the research on how to train on the Ketogenic Diet along with experimenting with it to understand how to make it work.

    With that said, my Limit Strength and Power are just as good, if not better, on the Ketogenic Diet as when I was on the Traditional High Carobhydrate Western Diet.

    A Comprehensive Guide to Bodybuilding on the Ketogenic Diet | Ruled Me

    While this article is geared toward Bodybuilding, some of the same principles apply for Strength Training; how to write a Ketogenic Diet Strength Training Program.

    Secondly, some interesting research by Dr Jonathan Oliver on the use of Cluster Set as a mean of increasing muscle mass and while maintaining and/or increasing Power and Strength is a very effective method of training for individual on the Ketogenic Diet.

    As a side note, Traditional Hypertrophy Training increases muscle mass at the expense of Limit Strength and Power. Oliver's research determined "Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training" circumvented that issue.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  9. Hasbro

    Hasbro Triple-Digit Post Count

    @kennycro@@aol.com I didn’t have any way to measure whether I was in ketosis or not but I’m pretty sure I was simply because I was eating only 20 grams of carbs a day. I kept up with my macros by using an app called “Carb Manager” which I highly recommend for anyone trying keto. I meticulously kept my fats around 70%, protein around 25%, and carbs less than 5%. Calories were typically 2000 on a low day and 2500 on a high day. I didn’t treat it as a calorie restrictive diet and ate when I was hungry.

    I had the typical keto flu symptoms the first week but that subsided after increasing water and electrolyte intake. I’m a runner and was doing a 5k about 4-5 days a week. I could feel a drastic change in my energy level during my runs. I run a very hilly course and some days I had to walk up some of the hills because I just felt bonked. As soon as I added more carbs back in my diet my runs felt nearly effortless.

    I’m sure there’s tweaks I could’ve made to help with energy levels but my macros were spot on. I just didn’t like the way I felt most of the time and the irritability was unacceptable....especially for family and coworkers. It was good for getting some weight off quickly but I knew there was no way I could sustain it over the long term. Pizza was always lurking in the back of my mind...lol.
     
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  10. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Keto Diet

    Sounds like you should have been in ketosis. You may have needed more time for Keto Adaptation to take place. It's hard to say.

    It took me some time to figure the Keto Diet out for my strength training. What took a little longer was understanding how to training on the Ketogenic Diet.

    "Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing." Einstein

    The take home message is no matter how smart you are and what you do, you don't always get it right the first time, nor the second, etc.

    So, it may take you some time and a few tries, to make the Ketogenic Diet work for you. With that said, there are other diets that will probably work for you. The Ketogenic Diet, nor is any other diet, "The Best Diet".

    "The Best Diet" is the diet that works for you and the one you can live with.

    As I've mentioned that I have a metabolic condition. The Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting appears to be something that may be helping me. So, I feel like the Ketogenic Diet chose me.

    I now like the Ketogenic Diet but don't recommend. That because the more restrictive and demanding anything is, the less likely someone is to follow it

    I am an advocate of Intermittent Fasting due to the fact that it is much easier. Nothing to fix, nothing to count, just skip a meal, which everyone has for some reason.

    Some of the same benefits of the Ketogenic Diet occur with Intermittent Fasting.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
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  11. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides StrongFirst Director of Community Engagement Staff Member Senior Instructor

    @kennycro@@aol.com has mentioned something in the past he calls Metabolic Flexibility, if memory serves. IMHO, this is a good goal, and I think it's something I've achieved. My story:

    I like being what I'd call a "social eater," e.g., my wife and I attended the initiation party for a friend who had built himself a real pizza oven in his back yard. Wood burning, gets to 900 degrees F.

    So, in addition to working the oven for a shift - we made pizza basically all afternoon - I ate a lot of pizza last Sunday, weighed more on Monday morning, and have been losing that weight gradually during the course of this week. No carbs for me all week except for the few grams that are in protein bars and in things like fully-fatted yogurt, sour cream, and ricotta cheese, and I'll probably weight 2 kg less tomorrow, Friday morning than I weighed on Monday morning.

    You could call it some sort of targeted or cyclic keto diet, but in my case, it's more haphazard than that. But - and, of course, I've mentioned all these here before - I generally eat more and less carefully on the weekends, less and cleaner during the week.

    -S-
     
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  12. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides StrongFirst Director of Community Engagement Staff Member Senior Instructor

    Which reminds me to ask - @kennycro@@aol.com , I lately see various keto pills around - any experience with them? I am not feeling the need, but am curious.

    -S-
     
  13. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Keto Pills

    No, I have not tired them and don't have any experience with them

    MCT Oil and Liquid Coconut Oil

    These are the only to thing that I've tried.

    I initially used them a lot but didn't see/feel when taken prior to a training session.

    However, I did take a MCT/Liquid Coconut Cocktail prior to a heavy Squat Training Session and felt that made a difference.

    I still use them but not as much as I did.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  14. Hasbro

    Hasbro Triple-Digit Post Count

    That’s somewhat the way I’m eating now....clean during the weekdays and a couple of splurge meals on the weekends. But I don’t purposely try to keep the carb count low during the weekdays because I don’t want to be dipping in and out of ketosis all the time. I normally eat Warrior style so I get the benefits of intermittent fasting but still using glucose as a fuel source.

    Some of the research I’ve read is saying it’s not good to spike your blood sugar while in a state of ketosis and that it can possibly do blood vessel damage. Steve with no more carbs than you’re eating during the weekdays there’s a good chance you’re in ketosis by the time you’re spiking you’re blood sugar on the weekend and I would be concerned about that considering the new reasearch findings. The study needs more samples to come to any kind of definitive conclusions but the initial findings should at least be pause for thought.

    Keto diet: A 'cheat day' may undo benefits and damage blood vessels
     
  15. Oscar

    Oscar Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I saw this diagram in a @Brett Jones article lately which I think is related to the matabolic flexibility:


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I´d like to improve my metabolic flexibility as well. I think it plays a major factor in being able to deal with hunger, feeling good when not eating and burning fat as energy.
     
  16. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    Isn't metabolic flexibility more a function of activity levels? If you walk often, run sometimes, use the entire body to lift and move things you'll have a pretty good enzyme profile on the cellular level. Your choice of fuel will depend far and away more on activity levels than anything else.

    I'm not clear on the phrase "metabolic flexibility". Isn't that just another way of saying you don't have any metabolic disorders?
     
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  17. Oscar

    Oscar Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I'd say it is to feel good and perform well when eating carbs, fat or fasted. In other words, being able to use fat as fuel.
     
  18. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Endurance Training

    Endurance Training and Sports tend to promote more body fat being used as fuel. That in part due to the fact their intensity level is lower.

    The lower your intensity level, the greater the percentage of ketones/body fat burned and the lower you percentage of muscle glycogen used for fuel.

    Thus, your sleeping fuel source is predominately ketones/body fat. An activity like walking is also predominately burn ketones/body fat.

    As this chart show...

    Metabolic Efficiency: Becoming A “Better-Butter-Burner

    [​IMG]

    The Crossover Concept

    The crossover concept describes the relation.ship between exercise intensity and the use of fat and carbohydrate for energy...

    ...aerobic exercise without a lot of available carbohydrates, your body adapts by increasing its workforce of enzymes that metabolize fat...

    Glucose Dependent Individual

    Research shows that individual on a the Western High Carbohydrate Diet are glucose dependent. Their energy system is more dependent on glucose for all activities.

    While endurance training increased their ability to utilize more ketones/body fat, they continue be glucose dependent when on a Western High Carbohydrate Diet.

    Keto Dependent

    The Ketogenic Diet enable individual to utilize ketones/body fat for fuel. However, it appears that individual are more ketone dependent; don't access glycogen as well.

    The Good News

    The good new for Endurance Athletes on a Ketogenic Diet is they aren't going to run out of ketones.

    As the article stated, "... most trained runners are carrying about 1,500 – 2,000 calories of carbohydrates and 80,000-plus (!) calories of fat. (Even the leanest runners.)"

    Thus, Keto Adapted Endurance Athletes utilize more ketones/body fat for fuel and preserve muscle glycogen. They are less likely to "Bonk" (run out of muscle glycogen) or they are able to go farther before they do.

    The Bad News

    It appears that Keto Adapted Athlete are not able to access muscle glycogen as rapidly and effectively. Thus, they may not be able to access and utilize the Glycolytic Energy System for more intensive run that require for up 2:5 minutes of moderately high intensity.

    With that said, Rachael Gregory's "A Low-Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet Combined with 6-Weeks of Crossfit Training Improves Body Composition and Performance" research indicates that a well Keto Adapted Athlete can perform well in the Glycolytic Energy System.

    In a email discussion with Al Caimpa, he stated the same and went into some interesting detail on it.

    So, the topic is still open for discussion.


    Metabolic Flexibility


    Metabolic Flexibility amount your energy system operating like a Hybrid Car.

    Metaphorically speaking, with low level activities the car runs off electricity (ketones).

    In high level activities (accelerating to pass another car) the car run off gas (glucose).

    The most effective diet that programs the body to utilize either ketones or muscle glycogen, dependent on the intensity level of the activity is...

    Intermittent Fasting

    Dr Mike T. Nelson is one of the leading experts with Intermittent Fasting. Nelson's research has determined that Intermittent Fasting essential turns you into a Hybrid Car.

    Definitely

    However, sometime the fuel used can be change by modifying the activity, as with...

    "Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training"

    Most Hypertrophy Training revolves around the Glycogen Energy System.

    Cluster Sets allow an individual to mainly utilize the Phosphagen Energy System and minimize the Glycolytic Energy System.

    No

    Metabolic Flexibility means being able to use the right tool (right energy system) for the right job (activity), as in the Hybrid Car analogy

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
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  19. Abdul-Rasheed

    Abdul-Rasheed Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @kennycro@@aol.com
    1) Does the body deplete muscle glycogen first, before it switches to using ketones?
    2) A keto-adapted person will have glycogen restored first via ketones?

    Thanks for all your very informative posts on all subjects diet and training.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  20. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    But isn't this all on a continuum anyway? There's a big difference between "I feel hungry" and "I cannot continue".

    If I train to improve aerobic performance I've improved my lipid oxidation profile. I was already burning fat for fuel and now I'm doing so with greater efficiency. The better my mitochondrial and capillary density, the more effective this process becomes and at higher levels of activity. I also improve my throughput of pyruvate which has added benefit of ATP generation for fast twitch muscles via glycolysis as my CrP stores plummet.

    Lacking ketones I will burn increasing amounts of carbs once I pass a given threshold, but in practice, the ketones simply fill the role taken by pyruvate. Only after serious extremes of endurance will glucose stores begin to fail, and this can be staved off almost indefinitely by consuming glucose rich foods and beverages. The body is equiped to shunt ingested glucose directly to working muscles in this environment. I'd also be burning plenty of fat throughout, as the level of output to suppress lipid enzymes is way above what an individual can sustain for any length of time.

    The ketogenic athlete by comparison, cannot simply consume glucose rich foods to improve high intensity output, their body won't make good use of it and will further have considerable difficulty over a much longer timeframe just storing it. Not to mention the recent research Hasbro linked to showing possible physical harm from even attempting such a strategy.

    To me this just doesn't look like flexibility so much as trading one fuel for another lower BTU fuel, albeit with a bigger tank (ethanol/gas blend for straight ethanol), and becoming less flexible nutritionally in the process.
     
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