LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
Yes I think weekly volume (sets) is more significant than reps per set
Barbell Total volume approach for hypertrophy
- Thread starter Spartan Agoge
- Start date
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Am not familiar with the research, but have gotten great results using a few easy sets and pounding one very tough set per exercise. Thib's "best darn plan for natties" is very similar. This was also done with relatively low weekly volume, 3 sessions of < 40 minutes per.
Washed up Meathead.
Level 5 Valued Member
Specific Rep ranges does not matter as much, it's more about overall volume for hypertrophy.
This article on the subject is well worth a read
www.strongerbyscience.com
This article on the subject is well worth a read
The "Hypertrophy Rep Range" – Fact or Fiction?
Is there a hypertrophy range of 6-15 reps per set that will net you more muscle growth? Let's look at this question both scientifically and practically.
www.strongerbyscience.com
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
As maybe a final thought on this, my experience def leads me to believe there must be some lactate accumulation to trigger notable muscle synthesis.
Reps closer to fatigue failure (either single strings of reps or multiple single or low number of reps performed with brief rest - Rest/Pause, Myo Reps, Clusters) generate very large spikes in lactate as the glycolytic pathway mostly being used to power type2 fibers, and increasing metabolic interference with contraction force of those fibers.
The increase in lactate combined with local muscle damage from tension and (possible contributing role) specific fiber depletion of glucose are potent signalling pathways. They can be achieved a number of ways, but most easily with eccentric overload and lactate accumulation.
I suspect something of a linear dose response in a fairly narrow range, with less stimulus falling off the low end and more stimulus flatlining or even reducing the response.
Pathophysiology of Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage and Its Structural, Functional, Metabolic, and Clinical Consequences
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Reps closer to fatigue failure (either single strings of reps or multiple single or low number of reps performed with brief rest - Rest/Pause, Myo Reps, Clusters) generate very large spikes in lactate as the glycolytic pathway mostly being used to power type2 fibers, and increasing metabolic interference with contraction force of those fibers.
The increase in lactate combined with local muscle damage from tension and (possible contributing role) specific fiber depletion of glucose are potent signalling pathways. They can be achieved a number of ways, but most easily with eccentric overload and lactate accumulation.
I suspect something of a linear dose response in a fairly narrow range, with less stimulus falling off the low end and more stimulus flatlining or even reducing the response.
Pathophysiology of Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage and Its Structural, Functional, Metabolic, and Clinical Consequences
Lactate Stimulates a Potential for Hypertrophy and Regeneration of Mouse Skeletal Muscle
The effects of lactate on muscle mass and regeneration were investigated using mouse skeletal muscle tissue and cultured C2C12 cells. Male C57BL/6J mice were randomly divided into (1) control, (2) lactate (1 mol/L in distilled water, 8.9 mL/g body weight)-administered, ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
I don't know what his theory was but Art Devany advocated using lactic acid 'burn' as the trigger to terminate sets. This is from a 2005 interview he gave, I don't know if it makes sense or not:As maybe a final thought on this, my experience def leads me to believe there must be some lactate accumulation to trigger notable muscle synthesis.
Reps closer to fatigue failure (either single strings of reps or multiple single or low number of reps performed with brief rest - Rest/Pause, Myo Reps, Clusters) generate very large spikes in lactate as the glycolytic pathway mostly being used to power type2 fibers, and increasing metabolic interference with contraction force of those fibers.
The increase in lactate combined with local muscle damage from tension and (possible contributing role) specific fiber depletion of glucose are potent signalling pathways. They can be achieved a number of ways, but most easily with eccentric overload and lactate accumulation.
I suspect something of a linear dose response in a fairly narrow range, with less stimulus falling off the low end and more stimulus flatlining or even reducing the response.
Pathophysiology of Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage and Its Structural, Functional, Metabolic, and Clinical Consequences
Lactate Stimulates a Potential for Hypertrophy and Regeneration of Mouse Skeletal Muscle
The effects of lactate on muscle mass and regeneration were investigated using mouse skeletal muscle tissue and cultured C2C12 cells. Male C57BL/6J mice were randomly divided into (1) control, (2) lactate (1 mol/L in distilled water, 8.9 mL/g body weight)-administered, ...
"In addition, huge amounts of lactic acid are produced [from multiple sets with very brief rest periods], a well-known promoter of growth hormone (GH). In addition, the genes in the muscle fibers “sense” the signal of acid or oxygen to determine whether to make fast myosin chains or slow ones. The lactic acid promotes gene expression for fast fibers. Oxygen promotes slow fiber expression. This makes sense, doesn’t it, because something has to tell the muscle how to develop and it has to be a local signal, right there in that muscle fiber. This is an example of a decentralized signal that much of my economic research deals with."
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Spartan Agoge
Level 7 Valued Member
That is my point. I want to test if a huge weekly volume can produce significant hypertrophy even at lower intensity.
30-40+ sets per week(and gradually even more) of 3 reps at 6rm, or even 8rm.
I will call it "construction worker workout", or "old farmer workout"
I will tell you in 2 months if it produces results or not.
mar2safety
Level 6 Valued Member
This here. When doing PTTP Bear Protocol, I would decrease the rest periods working through the sets. First working set of 5, then 3 mins rest, 90% set of 5, then 2 mins rest, then 80% sets of 5 EMOM. I would keep doing the sets of 5 EMOM until I could no longer do sets of 5. There was a noticeable pump and I most definitely put on muscle mass.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
What are you planning on for work to rest periods etc?That is my point. I want to test if a huge weekly volume can produce significant hypertrophy even at lower intensity.
30-40+ sets per week(and gradually even more) of 3 reps at 6rm, or even 8rm.
I will call it "construction worker workout", or "old farmer workout"
I will tell you in 2 months if it produces results or not.
Spartan Agoge
Level 7 Valued Member
I will autoregulate according to feeling. I will start with 60'' rests periods(or even less), but after 10-15 sets I may go for 90'' or even 120''.
Total volume increase will be my main concern, over anything else. I will also be deloading every 4th week by cutting volume by 50%.
Something like this:
Week 1: 16x3 @6rm
Week 2: 18x3 @6rm
Week 3: 20x3 @6rm
Week 4: 10x3 @6rm (deload)
Week 5: 22x3 @6rm
etc...
The mesocycle will be 12 weeks. If it works, I will then start a second mesocycle, starting with week 1 (16x3) with a slightly higher weight.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
I don't wanna speak out of turn - but one of the things that I keep seeing from @Fabio Zonin 's programming is ladders and alternate rep sets throughout a session.
so, in this case - at 6rm, instead of 3/16 he might put (2,4)/16.
some food for thought, perhaps.
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Nate
Level 6 Valued Member
Assuming we ignore the situation of untrained lifters where any set is harder than they're used to, we must still accept that a muscle has to be stimulated to trigger growth. Whether through tension, metabolic stress or damage, we have options. Some of which are more efficient than others, and while some programs may result in hypertrophy, that doesn't mean its optimal hypertrophy, or hypertrophy with the lowest amount of consequences... Everything must be put into context.
I haven't seen hypertrophy research with 30% of rep max, but I have seen it with 30% of 1RM, as long as sets were brought to failure (pushups failing at 30 reps would reasonably create some pecs). For heavier weights, it showed that near failure was still important, but a few reps short was almost as good as true failure, and with fewer negative baggage. Thus the idea that volume could be measured by total sets that end within ~4 reps of failure (sets of 5-25 are probably optimal). Sets of 3 with 6RM (3 RIR) is close to those criteria & can be considered "sets near failure". I don't think this plan contradicts existing research/practice all that much. Some might say, for hypertrophy, using 3 reps will be a little low, but its not all that far off accepted practices.
I haven't seen hypertrophy research with 30% of rep max, but I have seen it with 30% of 1RM, as long as sets were brought to failure (pushups failing at 30 reps would reasonably create some pecs). For heavier weights, it showed that near failure was still important, but a few reps short was almost as good as true failure, and with fewer negative baggage. Thus the idea that volume could be measured by total sets that end within ~4 reps of failure (sets of 5-25 are probably optimal). Sets of 3 with 6RM (3 RIR) is close to those criteria & can be considered "sets near failure". I don't think this plan contradicts existing research/practice all that much. Some might say, for hypertrophy, using 3 reps will be a little low, but its not all that far off accepted practices.
SethRen
Level 4 Valued Member
Strength and size go hand in hand for 90% of people. Get strong and you'll get big
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training
Dr Jonahan Oliver's research on Cluster Set Hypertrop;hy Training was based on maintaining and increasing Power and Strength along with increasing Muscle Mass.
Oliver's research demonstrated that it was accomplished with...
1) Moderate Loads
2) Performed Explosively
Continuing once Power Output drops, means you are no longer training the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber that produce a greater Hypertrophy. Slow Type I Musc;e Fiber are innervated. The Hypertrophy Effect with Slow Twich Muscle Fiber is minimal.
3) Repetition in each Cluster between 1 to 5.
4) Rest Periods between Cluster of around 15 to 45 seconds.
5)Termination of the Exericise or Set, one a decrease in Power Output Dropped.
Cluster Set Hypertrophy came in a close second to...
The Bodybuilding Hypertrophy Training Protocol
This method utilized...
1) Low To Moderate Loads
60% of 1 Repetition Max plus.
2) High to Moderate Repetitions
8 Repetition plus per Set.
3) Short Rest Periods Between Sets
Around 60 second per Set.
While effective at increasing Muscle Mass, the issue is that if this method is solely employed, it comes at the expense of a decrease in Maximum Strength and Power.
Nate
Level 6 Valued Member
*if you are in caloric surplus with enough protein.
Plenty get strong and stay in their weight class.
Nate
Level 6 Valued Member
Nice summary of training volume vs volume load as relating to hypertrophy.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Hmmm... my 2cents.
"This tells us that when the majority of the muscle fibers in a muscle are activated (as is the case in the reps close to failure in a conventional strength training set), the mechanical tension experienced by those muscle fibers predicts muscle growth."
We also know that motor units cycle in and out with fatigue, and that high threshold MUs experience substantial reduction in tension potential due to accumulation of inorganic phosphate.
The decline in rep speed when performed to failure (to a stall) demonstrates that large drop in MU tension has occured. Total tension in the muscle, and with the highest total recruitment % happens at the onset of a high threshold challenge and steadily declines with demand time.
What does happen with longer duration set taken to failure - CrP stores are temporarily spent, inorganic phosphate from initial CrP usage reduces tension potential, high threshold MUs that were recruited early have tapped out. The only fuel available for type 2 that are still standing proud is the 2 or 3 ATP per from glucose, with the lion's share fermenting into and flooding the area with...lactate.
One can use a Drop Set not-to-failure and get similar or better response with decreasing load that you might get with a heavier load taken to a stall.
"This tells us that when the majority of the muscle fibers in a muscle are activated (as is the case in the reps close to failure in a conventional strength training set), the mechanical tension experienced by those muscle fibers predicts muscle growth."
We also know that motor units cycle in and out with fatigue, and that high threshold MUs experience substantial reduction in tension potential due to accumulation of inorganic phosphate.
The decline in rep speed when performed to failure (to a stall) demonstrates that large drop in MU tension has occured. Total tension in the muscle, and with the highest total recruitment % happens at the onset of a high threshold challenge and steadily declines with demand time.
What does happen with longer duration set taken to failure - CrP stores are temporarily spent, inorganic phosphate from initial CrP usage reduces tension potential, high threshold MUs that were recruited early have tapped out. The only fuel available for type 2 that are still standing proud is the 2 or 3 ATP per from glucose, with the lion's share fermenting into and flooding the area with...lactate.
One can use a Drop Set not-to-failure and get similar or better response with decreasing load that you might get with a heavier load taken to a stall.
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Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
These Thoughts have conjured my memory of Simple & Sinster's discourse on Speed Endurance.
It would seem to my eye - that the recruitment and energetics concerns are the same.
So, the way I think of this is:
(1) Express the full intensity of the CrP system through (heavy weight, high forces, and high tension).
Employ high intensity, demanding a peak momentary throughput rate of phosphors.
(2) Express the full magnitude of the CrP system's capacity, by requiring a Strength/Speed-Endurance long-time exposure.
Employ long sets at lower but sufficient intensity to demand Type 2 fiber recruitment, demanding a peak total supply of phosphors.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
To me:
- use CrP for power primarily, limit strength a close second
- use glucose depletion as needed for hypertrophy or in case of HIIT to trigger aerobic adaptive response
- Creatine is rephosphorylated via surplus ATP from aerobic pathway, manipulate accordingly.
- use CrP for power primarily, limit strength a close second
- use glucose depletion as needed for hypertrophy or in case of HIIT to trigger aerobic adaptive response
- Creatine is rephosphorylated via surplus ATP from aerobic pathway, manipulate accordingly.
Nate
Level 6 Valued Member
Let's also recognize research, historical practice and leaders like schoenfeld, isreatel, etc agree that sets close to failure have nearly the same hyperteophic effect with far less stress or byproduct of a couple reps more leading to actual failure. Again, this is for optimal hypertrophy not training for other traits with a side of growth...
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
As far as near-failure reps are concerned. I am reminded.
I once worked for a mechanical engineer who said - everything is a performance curve.
From left to right:
Steep incline
broad useable range
performance dropoff
the general form of this graph - in his mind - applied to everything.
there's always a drop-off in performance before max inputs.
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