Barbell Total volume approach for hypertrophy

[North Coast Miller]

Let's also recognize research, historical practice and leaders like schoenfeld, isreatel, etc agree that sets close to failure have nearly the same hyperteophic effect with far less stress or byproduct of a couple reps more leading to actual failure. Again, this is for optimal hypertrophy not training for other traits with a side of growth...

This def agrees with my personal experience.
Another observation I have from using pretty hardcore "to failure" finishing sets - if done in earnest you won't be able to do but one with any sort of gusto. And that's OK because it greatly increases your between set recovery needs as well.
The deeper you run a set into failure, the less efficient the energy usage becomes, on a very steep curve. This is a potent hypertrophic signal but the effect is far from linear.

 

[Steve Freides]

Strength and size go hand in hand for 90% of people. Get strong and you'll get big

Who wants to be like 90% of the people?



-S-

 

[LukeV]

Who wants to be like 90% of the people?



-S-

Pee Wee Herman?

 

[LukeV]

*if you are in caloric surplus with enough protein.
Plenty get strong and stay in their weight class.

weight classes are strength classes, at least at elite level. It would be interesting to see a linear distribution of maximum weights across strength classes at a large competition. what is the overlap?

 

[Steve Freides]

It would be interesting to see a linear distribution of maximum weights across strength classes at a large competition. what is the overlap?

That’s easy enough to do. Look at openpowerlifting.org and you can. See a lot of raw data.

-S-

 

[Nate]

weight classes are strength classes, at least at elite level. It would be interesting to see a linear distribution of maximum weights across strength classes at a large competition. what is the overlap?

Yes, I've read that strength and lean body mass is basically a direct relationship once you get past a certain level.

 

[Adachi]

weight classes are strength classes, at least at elite level. It would be interesting to see a linear distribution of maximum weights across strength classes at a large competition. what is the overlap?

Might be able to do it with data from open power lifting ...

 

[fabskl]

That is my point. I want to test if a huge weekly volume can produce significant hypertrophy even at lower intensity.

30-40+ sets per week(and gradually even more) of 3 reps at 6rm, or even 8rm.

I will call it "construction worker workout", or "old farmer workout"

I will tell you in 2 months if it produces results or not.

I am looking forward to your results, because I was asking myself a similar question. After reading a lot of literature about hypertrophy and strength training, I am not quite sure how Built Strong fits into that picture.
For example, it is shown that hypertrophy is nearly identical for high and low loads if the intensity, i.e. how close to failure a set is, is matched.
In BuiltStrongMinimalist ladders are used, with 1/3 to 2/3 of RM. Using a 9RM this would mean 3 to 6 reps. Here 3 reps are 6RIR, and would probably not contribute much to a hypertrophic stimulus, but maybe to a strength stimulus (neurologic efficiency). The 6 reps are 3RIR, and will contribute to a hypertrophic stimulus, but will only be done 1-3 times per workout. I this efficient? Would doing only reps at 3RIR, and waving the volume, i.e. number of sets, not be more (time) efficient? For me it sometimes feels the 1/3reps are just lead-in reps, which only take time and resources from the higher reps.

PS: I would be great to hear from @Fabio Zonin , and the reason behind this and his experiences.

 

[Nate]

I am looking forward to your results, because I was asking myself a similar question. After reading a lot of literature about hypertrophy and strength training, I am not quite sure how Built Strong fits into that picture.
For example, it is shown that hypertrophy is nearly identical for high and low loads if the intensity, i.e. how close to failure a set is, is matched.
In BuiltStrongMinimalist ladders are used, with 1/3 to 2/3 of RM. Using a 9RM this would mean 3 to 6 reps. Here 3 reps are 6RIR, and would probably not contribute much to a hypertrophic stimulus, but maybe to a strength stimulus (neurologic efficiency). The 6 reps are 3RIR, and will contribute to a hypertrophic stimulus, but will only be done 1-3 times per workout. I this efficient? Would doing only reps at 3RIR, and waving the volume, i.e. number of sets, not be more (time) efficient? For me it sometimes feels the 1/3reps are just lead-in reps, which only take time and resources from the higher reps.

PS: I would be great to hear from @Fabio Zonin , and the reason behind this and his experiences.

Building muscle & building muscle as efficiently as possible is the difference. BS, and other SF programs, are designed for strength, sometimes with a side effect of hypertrophy. BS would use weights heavy enough, with higher number of sets, to trigger growth (if diet is right) but not to the degree that IFBB pros will all flock to it from their traditional programs to gain a bunch of mass.

 

[fabskl]

My understanding of the research is that for strength the primary driver is load, and most probably the efficiency one is gaining by training with that load (it does not mean low loads do not make you strong, but you are not 'used to' it). So in case of Built Strong you have high, medium and low loads (at least in BST3.0). The high loads will take care of the strength part, but a low load, far away from failure (15RM means 5-10RIR for the sets ), that sounds inefficient for strength and hypertrophy.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I'm also interested in how this works out. From my POV, this approach lacks high tension AND most of the metabolic fizz that allows other low-tension approaches to work. I would expect this to primarily improve type 1 fiber performance. Time will tell, there is no better data than that acquired by doing.

 

[LukeV]

In a typical multi-set hypertrophy program are the first sub-maximal sets just warm up or do they trigger something and if so is it growth or a pre-cursor to growth?

Let’s use 531 Boring But Big as an example - 5 sets of 10, maxing out on the last set, 60-90 sec rest periods. In my experience the first 2 (possibly 3) sets are not going to be within 5 reps of failure. What are they doing? Likewise the Russian Bear - too many sets to count of 5 reps, maxing out on the last, 60-90 sec rest period. The first 10 sets (possibly 15 or more) are not going to be within 5 reps of failure. Is that junk volume or achieving something? Delorme - 3 sets of 10 @ 50%, 75% and 100% of your 10RM. First two sets won’t be within 5 reps of failure. Any benefit?

The suggestion that these sub-maximal seats are in some way contributing to muscle growth is intriguing.

 

[North Coast Miller]

...The suggestion that these sub-maximal seats are in some way contributing to muscle growth is intriguing.

They ABSOLUTELY have a role, and in my experience a very important one that I would be hard pressed to explain. The real question here is if they can be made to trigger similar adaptive response absent that last high threshold set.

 

[Spartan Agoge]

They ABSOLUTELY have a role, and in my experience a very important one that I would be hard pressed to explain. The real question here is if they can be made to trigger similar adaptive response absent that last high threshold set.

This is exactly what my experiment is about.

 

[bluejeff]

Just popping my head in here to share an anecdote, for what little it may or may not be worth.

I have been pursuing handstand pushups for quite a while. Long story short, I believe my glacially-slow progress was due to biomechanical compensations/interference. Once I got around/past that, I have been greasing the groove, essentially, all summer with handstand pushups. The only other upper body pressing I get is from prehab work a few times a week, some original strength stuff, and a smattering of standard pushups.

Granted, this might be a newby-gains thing (until now, I haven't been able to consistently train pressing hard due to the aforementioned issues).... but doing between 5-10 sets per day of 2-4 reps, typically 4-5 days/week, of what is essentially a 5 rep max has put considerable size on my arms and shoulders. So I am doing very high tension, and getting in the neighborhood of 100+ reps per week. I thought of this thread because I am: a) not doing all my upper body pressing in consolidated sessions, which b) means (I think) there is a total weekly volume effect happening, and c) if this is a continuable thing, then it might implicate, at least to a certain extent, that you don't need metabolic stress for the hypertrophic effect, at least not "directly."

Regarding the very last point, I have to acknowledge that I might be getting peripheral metabolic and/or hormonal effects from other training.

One other caveat is that I'm sure at a certain point I will hit diminishing returns. That being said, there are plenty of calisthenics athletes who train high volume fairly frequently who are both big AND strong. So we'll see how it pans out over time.

The last observation is that these are not (yet) full ROM; they are done head to floor, not head past shoulders. I plan on increasing ROM when my rep max gets up to 8-10.

 

[Nate]

Just popping my head in here to share an anecdote, for what little it may or may not be worth.

I have been pursuing handstand pushups for quite a while. Long story short, I believe my glacially-slow progress was due to biomechanical compensations/interference. Once I got around/past that, I have been greasing the groove, essentially, all summer with handstand pushups. The only other upper body pressing I get is from prehab work a few times a week, some original strength stuff, and a smattering of standard pushups.

Granted, this might be a newby-gains thing (until now, I haven't been able to consistently train pressing hard due to the aforementioned issues).... but doing between 5-10 sets per day of 2-4 reps, typically 4-5 days/week, of what is essentially a 5 rep max has put considerable size on my arms and shoulders. So I am doing very high tension, and getting in the neighborhood of 100+ reps per week. I thought of this thread because I am: a) not doing all my upper body pressing in consolidated sessions, which b) means (I think) there is a total weekly volume effect happening, and c) if this is a continuable thing, then it might implicate, at least to a certain extent, that you don't need metabolic stress for the hypertrophic effect, at least not "directly."

Regarding the very last point, I have to acknowledge that I might be getting peripheral metabolic and/or hormonal effects from other training.

One other caveat is that I'm sure at a certain point I will hit diminishing returns. That being said, there are plenty of calisthenics athletes who train high volume fairly frequently who are both big AND strong. So we'll see how it pans out over time.

The last observation is that these are not (yet) full ROM; they are done head to floor, not head past shoulders. I plan on increasing ROM when my rep max gets up to 8-10.

Another way of looking at what you are doing is 20-50 weekly sets of vertical pressing, all within the accepted 4RIR to qualify as hypertrophy sets, especially at a weight that would be a lot of mechanical tension. That's a recipe for growth.

 

[Washed up Meathead.]

Just popping my head in here to share an anecdote, for what little it may or may not be worth.

I have been pursuing handstand pushups for quite a while. Long story short, I believe my glacially-slow progress was due to biomechanical compensations/interference. Once I got around/past that, I have been greasing the groove, essentially, all summer with handstand pushups. The only other upper body pressing I get is from prehab work a few times a week, some original strength stuff, and a smattering of standard pushups.

Granted, this might be a newby-gains thing (until now, I haven't been able to consistently train pressing hard due to the aforementioned issues).... but doing between 5-10 sets per day of 2-4 reps, typically 4-5 days/week, of what is essentially a 5 rep max has put considerable size on my arms and shoulders. So I am doing very high tension, and getting in the neighborhood of 100+ reps per week. I thought of this thread because I am: a) not doing all my upper body pressing in consolidated sessions, which b) means (I think) there is a total weekly volume effect happening, and c) if this is a continuable thing, then it might implicate, at least to a certain extent, that you don't need metabolic stress for the hypertrophic effect, at least not "directly."

Regarding the very last point, I have to acknowledge that I might be getting peripheral metabolic and/or hormonal effects from other training.

One other caveat is that I'm sure at a certain point I will hit diminishing returns. That being said, there are plenty of calisthenics athletes who train high volume fairly frequently who are both big AND strong. So we'll see how it pans out over time.

The last observation is that these are not (yet) full ROM; they are done head to floor, not head past shoulders. I plan on increasing ROM when my rep max gets up to 8-10.

That's weird, Ive actually just tried them myself for the first time before I saw this, they are tough but fun.

So depsite the short ROM your triceps have grown noticeably in size yes?

Obviously it's a lot of volume since you are GTG and also weight along with lots of mechanical tension but it's still small ROM, this is very interesting to me.

Have you also noticed any back growth in the upper, lower traps and rhomboid area?

 

[bluejeff]

That's weird, Ive actually just tried them myself for the first time before I saw this, they are tough but fun.

So depsite the short ROM your triceps have grown noticeably in size yes?

Obviously it's a lot of volume since you are GTG and also weight along with lots of mechanical tension but it's still small ROM, this is very interesting to me.

Have you also noticed any back growth in the upper, lower traps and rhomboid area?

So far, yes. My triceps especially have grown, but it's hard to tell about the back so far. I just haven't been able to see it from a good angle. I should have also noted that I am doing them chest-to-wall. This minimizes the tendency to arch the back and press with the upper chest, so it's mostly delts, traps, triceps. I want to be able to do them freestanding so I am trying my best to mimic my handstand position. I also vary hand position a bit. Sometimes wide so my head comes almost directly between my hands, sometimes narrower so my head comes in front of my hands a bit.

 

[Washed up Meathead.]

So far, yes. My triceps especially have grown, but it's hard to tell about the back so far. I just haven't been able to see it from a good angle. I should have also noted that I am doing them chest-to-wall. This minimizes the tendency to arch the back and press with the upper chest, so it's mostly delts, traps, triceps. I want to be able to do them freestanding so I am trying my best to mimic my handstand position. I also vary hand position a bit. Sometimes wide so my head comes almost directly between my hands, sometimes narrower so my head comes in front of my hands a bit.

That's Great thanks.

I did mine kicking up back to wall, I was close to the wall though and no back arching. It was all delts and triceps but I also really felt it in my lower traps.

I could only do sets of 3-5 reps head to floor. I plan to build volume then increase the ROM using 1" mats either side that my gym has.

Have you had any elbow or wrist issues from the GTG daily training?

 

[bluejeff]

Have you had any elbow or wrist issues from the GTG daily training?

Barely. I do keep up on mobility though. Without totally derailing the thread: I do first knuckle pushups, scap pushups, hangs, and lots of original strength rocking. If the shoulder moves well, the elbow moves well, and downstream, the wrist will move well. If you can keep good palm contact through the range of motion of your push without undue stress somewhere along the kinetic chain, you should be fine. I'll DM you links/videos so as not to pull the thread off-topic.