Barbell Training Program...

[Deleted member 6651]

Hello,

Been a while since I posted.

I have been doing the strongs 5x5 program. I remember all the stuff I read that he spoke about how no point doing cardio work because squats/deadlifts etc are like a full body workout anyway and by doing cardio you will only drain your energy to not be able to build strength muscle and whatever else.

Well, after a while of doing 5x5 and trying few different things out (real life stuff) I can say 1 thing for sure, and that is, 5x5 does not give you what I am after.

All this time doing squats, thinking "yeah I am getting fit" etc... I went for a walk down to the bottom of a valley, and then had to climb 1000 stairs or so back up to the top where the car was parked.

Not even half way up and my legs were totally finished and huffing and puffing as if I am the unfittest guy on earth.

All I can say is 5x5 'dont do cardio' is a joke. 5x5 does not make you fit whatsoever.

Anyway, with that background...

What sort of training can I do that will condition me that way? To be able to go down and up 1000 stairs without huffing and puffing and feeling like my lungs are gonna fall out along with my legs barely able to move where I have to stop every few steps just for the legs to recover some energy?

I want to be able to just 'keep on going' with no heavy breathing required just because I am climbing a hill.

Everything is telling me, "Rocky Balboa" - as much as Rocky 1-4 were movies and all acting and what not, that sort of training to me logically seems to be ideal for overall strength/fitness/endurance. Designed so that you can just keep on going rather than what I was experiencing.

Anyway, what should I be looking at?
Are weighted vests any good for this sort of thing on regular walks?
Medicine balls any good for throwing? (is that some how a full body energy user designed to help you get more endurance)

etc etc...

Some guidance here needed.

 

[fractal]

I think kettlebell work (S&S or A+A swings/snatches) plus some walking with or without added weight or running fits the bill perfectly. Have a look at the slow twitch article written by Pavel. A few sets of slow twitch squats might be helpful too

 

[Anna C]

I want to be able to just 'keep on going' with no heavy breathing required just because I am climbing a hill.

Build your aerobic base / aerobic engine. This is a decent way to go: Method - Dr. Phil Maffetone

Also note that climbing hills is HIGHLY affected by bodyweight. Even a 10 lb loss is very noticeable. You didn't mention where you are with that, but if it's a factor, losing excess bodyweight will help quite a bit.

Leg strength does help! It's just not the entire picture for the activity you are describing. However I wouldn't advise to do high intensity conditioning (Rocky Balboa, as you mentioned) to start with to order to address the issue. You need the aerobic base first. That means spending time with long slow distance (LSD) walking, hiking, rucking, cycling, running... etc. at a low intensity, such as with the MAF method linked above. That web site will explain why.

 

[Bryant W]

If walking, hiking and getting outdoors is your goal, then make that the centerpiece of your lifestyle. No need to go hard. No need to even get a heart rate monitor,unless that sounds like fun to you (personally I love mine but it's not essential). Hit a trail with steep hills every now and then. Do a few stairs every now and then. Start a bit easier than you think you can manage. You've got time to progress. After you build some endurance, put a pack on and ruck once or twice a week if that strikes your fancy. But make sure it's not too much too soon, and that it's recoverable and repeatable from day to day.

Anything strength training is supplemental. Barbell? Kettlebell? Bodyweight? Sprinting? Crawling? Doesn't matter if you don't have a specific goal. It's GPP, so the method is replaceable, and you can get stronger using any of these methods. Just pick one that strikes your fancy and load it enough to make progress but not interfere with the rest of your life. From a SF perspective, I think the Cost of Adaptation article is a great place to start, The Cost of Adaptation | StrongFirst. Especially the section, "Options that Blend Strength and Health". There is a barbell option, a kettlebell option, and a bodyweight option. All recommend getting outdoors and working regularly on mobility. Modify these recommendations to fit the activities you enjoy.

I doubt a weight vest is necessary. If you get winded with bodyweight, then that is enough stimulus to adapt to.

As for medicine balls, I love them, but I like explosive training and I wouldn't say they are essential. An option I learned ages ago as a track warm up is to take a med ball to a field, throw it, jog or skip to it, repeat. You can mix the throws up - overhead, chest pass, side chest pass, from the hip, from between the legs forward or throwing it backward over your head. And you mix the jogging/striding/skipping in between. Heck, you could even crawl and make it work. You alternate easy upper body work with some elastic/ballistic quality to it, use your muscles in good and varied ways, and then get some lower body striding/elastic work in. It's easy to keep it in the aerobic zone if you watch intensity and keep the heart rate down. And if you do an extended duration of it, it's a good aerobic base building model with good movement diversity built in. But if what you want and enjoy doing is going for walks/hikes, then that's probably where you should spend your time.

 

[vegpedlr]

I am not familiar with the program referred to, but squats are not conditioning. Wendler discusses this in his first book regarding his transition away from competitive powerlifting. Another good discussion is in the Tactical Barbell series.

I agree with the suggestions to go with the Maffetone Method. Find a low intensity activity you enjoy, wear a HRM, follow the directions, get the benefits. It’s worked well for me. For most people, most of the time, it’s hard to beat.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I have been doing the strongs 5x5 program. I remember all the stuff I read that he spoke about how no point doing cardio work because squats/deadlifts etc are like a full body workout anyway and by doing cardio you will only drain your energy to not be able to build strength muscle and whatever else.

5X5 Program

This is a program designed to increase "Limit Strength", your 1 Repetition Max. A "Limit Strength Program" does little to increase your aerobic capacity.

Cardio For Strength Training

Endurance Cardio Training impedes the development of strength and limits building muscle mass.

However, the right amount and type of cardio increase your recover from "Limit Strength Training." More on that in a minute.

All this time doing squats, thinking "yeah I am getting fit"

The 5 Components of Fitness

1) Cardio Vascular Endurance

2) Muscular Strength, "Limit Strength

3) Muscular Endurance

4) Flexibility

5) Body Composition

The 5X5 Program develop one of the 5 components,"Limit Strength" (Muscular Strength).

Other training method need to be used to develop the other 4 components.

Increasing Aerobic Capacity While Strength Training

One of the most effective method is High Intensity Interval Training, HIIT. Research has demonstrated the paradox of HIIT; it increases both anerobic and aerboic capacity. Others traditionally only develop one component of fitness.

Research demonstrated, "The moderate-intensity endurance training program produced a significant increase in V02max (about 10%), but had no effect on anaerobic capacity. The high-intensity intermittent protocol improved V02max by about 14%; anaerobic capacity increased by a whopping 28%. Source: Forget the Fat-Burn Zone

Due to the intensity of HIIT on a Strength Training Program, it needs to be limited to 2 - 3 time a week. It usually involves short Sprints: Running, Bike, Ellitpical, Rowing, etc.

High Intensity Interval Resistance Training

This is High Intensity Interval Cardio Training using resistance/weights. The same protocol for HIIT is preformed for High Intensity Interval Resistance Training. It basically Circuit Weight Training.

LISS, Low Intensity Steady State Cardio

This type of cardio training does little to increase your aerobic endurance capacity. The improvement in your aerobic capacity will be less than with Moderate-Intensity Training, noted in the research above.

Rocky Balboa Training

Some of the methods Rocky employed were good some were not. Jogging for miles is contra-indicated for Boxers (Strength and Power Athletes). Jogging for miles increases endurance at the expense of "Limit Strength", Power and Speed; all three will drop like rock.

As the research shows, HIIT/HIIRT increases anerobic and aerobic capacity; allow you to increase your Endurance, "Limit Strength, Power and Speed, providing your program is well written and executed.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[offwidth]

Increasing VO2max significantly is unlikely except in highly untrained individuals.
What can happen however is developing an increase in the fractional utilization of VO2max.

 

[LukeV]

Rocky Balboa Training

Get yourself a chicken and run it to ground!

 

[Deleted member 6651]

Build your aerobic base / aerobic engine. This is a decent way to go: Method - Dr. Phil Maffetone

Also note that climbing hills is HIGHLY affected by bodyweight. Even a 10 lb loss is very noticeable. You didn't mention where you are with that, but if it's a factor, losing excess bodyweight will help quite a bit.

Leg strength does help! It's just not the entire picture for the activity you are describing. However I wouldn't advise to do high intensity conditioning (Rocky Balboa, as you mentioned) to start with to order to address the issue. You need the aerobic base first. That means spending time with long slow distance (LSD) walking, hiking, rucking, cycling, running... etc. at a low intensity, such as with the MAF method linked above. That web site will explain why.

Hello and thank you,
I will have a look at that.

I don't have much weight too lose. 72kg only, fat... don't know. Only what you can pinch between 2 fingers around waist (normal). I just found leg muscles dead trying to go up, up, up... after about 10 steps it started becoming uuuuup.... uuuuuuuup..... uuuuuuuuup (pause get a breath, let legs get rid of pain) take a few more steps up, stop, repeat.

I just wish I could go down and run back up and not bat an eye lid at it. No heavy breathing, as though I was on flat ground.

I am glad in a way I started the 5x5 program because it has helped me tune what I am really after.

I have never in life needed to lift something I was physically not able too. So building more of that... sure good bragging rights, but not something I would ever need due to not able to do something without it. However, trying to go long, endurance etc, and feeling rubbish because of heavy breathing when it 'could be easier' if I had the cardio/endurnace, well, that I do use and so I figured that is what I should be developing. I only mentioned Rocky because of that 'raw' type training which to me is like 'now that will build everything for every day life'. It is also a good picture/ideal of what I was trying to say here, Endurnace, able to just keep on going, best picture I could think of to describe that was Rocky (whether true technically, or not as someone else mentioned here etc, the image is correct as to what I am looking for)

 

[Anna C]

I don't have much weight too lose. 72kg only, fat... don't know. Only what you can pinch between 2 fingers around waist (normal).

Oh you're fine as far as bodyweight, then. Actually fairly light, and I'm curious -- did you not put much lean mass on doing 5x5? What sort of weight did you work up to for 5x5 squats?

I just found leg muscles dead trying to go up, up, up... after about 10 steps it started becoming uuuuup.... uuuuuuuup..... uuuuuuuuup (pause get a breath, let legs get rid of pain) take a few more steps up, stop, repeat.

Sounds like lots of lactate and H+ production and not much lactate and H+ clearing. Slow twitch muscle fiber is good at using up the lactate that is produced by fast twitch fibers. A few key quotes from What is Lactate and Lactate Threshold | TrainingPeaks:

"Well trained athletes are very efficient and export less lactate to the blood as they clear it in higher amounts right in the lactate producing muscle which takes seconds or milliseconds. This is very advantageous as it allows contractile muscles a faster H+ removal as well as a faster lactate “recycling” for extra energy (ATP)."

"During exercise, lactate is mainly produced in fast twitch muscle fibers, which use lots of glucose for energy. It is cleared mainly by slow twitch muscle fibers. This is a complex process involving different lactate-specific transporters and enzymes."

"Endurance training (Zone 2) has the purpose of improving lactate clearance capacity by increasing the number of mitochondria to clear lactate mainly in slow twitch muscle fibers as well as by increasing the number of MCT-1 and mLDH. Both high intensity and endurance training increases the number of MCT-4 to increase lactate transport away from fast twitch fibers."

The burning you feel in the leg muscles that makes you stop and rest is the accumulation of H+ which accompanies the production of lactate.

This topic is of great interest to me, because I'm doing barbell training somewhat similar to what you were doing, but also maintaining regular walking and a weekly long bike ride. I feel like I'm getting the benefits of both, as the strength that I've gained makes efforts more sub-maximal... yet, as you said, it won't make all tasks easy. It's an interesting ongoing experiment. But also, I went into the strength training with a pretty solid aerobic base from cycling for 10+ years, so maintaining it is easier than building it. You've just spent a while convincing your body to spend its efforts to build a different capability (limit strength).

My suggestion would be to keep lifting enough to maintain your strength (twice a week or so), and shift your primary focus to cardio for a while. And I agree with @Bryant W -- by all means do it outdoors and enjoy it!

 

[fractal]

Oh you're fine as far as bodyweight, then. Actually fairly light, and I'm curious -- did you not put much lean mass on doing 5x5? What sort of weight did you work up to for 5x5 squats?



Sounds like lots of lactate and H+ production and not much lactate and H+ clearing. Slow twitch muscle fiber is good at using up the lactate that is produced by fast twitch fibers. A few key quotes from What is Lactate and Lactate Threshold | TrainingPeaks:

"Well trained athletes are very efficient and export less lactate to the blood as they clear it in higher amounts right in the lactate producing muscle which takes seconds or milliseconds. This is very advantageous as it allows contractile muscles a faster H+ removal as well as a faster lactate “recycling” for extra energy (ATP)."

"During exercise, lactate is mainly produced in fast twitch muscle fibers, which use lots of glucose for energy. It is cleared mainly by slow twitch muscle fibers. This is a complex process involving different lactate-specific transporters and enzymes."

"Endurance training (Zone 2) has the purpose of improving lactate clearance capacity by increasing the number of mitochondria to clear lactate mainly in slow twitch muscle fibers as well as by increasing the number of MCT-1 and mLDH. Both high intensity and endurance training increases the number of MCT-4 to increase lactate transport away from fast twitch fibers."

The burning you feel in the leg muscles that makes you stop and rest is the accumulation of H+ which accompanies the production of lactate.

This topic is of great interest to me, because I'm doing barbell training somewhat similar to what you were doing, but also maintaining regular walking and a weekly long bike ride. I feel like I'm getting the benefits of both, as the strength that I've gained makes efforts more sub-maximal... yet, as you said, it won't make all tasks easy. It's an interesting ongoing experiment. But also, I went into the strength training with a pretty solid aerobic base from cycling for 10+ years, so maintaining it is easier than building it. You've just spent a while convincing your body to spend it's efforts to build a different capability (limit strength).

My suggestion would be to keep lifting enough to maintain your strength (twice a week or so), and shift your primary focus to cardio for a while. And I agree with @Bryant W -- by all means do it outdoors and enjoy it!

very cool, I wasn't aware of this particular mechanism

 

[Deleted member 6651]

Ok I read through that MAF link.

Is it me or there is no actual training program there? Sorry I thought there was going to be some sort of routine guide for Aerobic/endurance training.

All I saw was surveys whether you overtrain (I don't), whether you eat junk food (I don't, i eat whole foods all the time, no chemicals, no packaged foods, no dead foods etc), I sleep fine etc.

Uhm... that was more or less a health guide unless I have entirely missed where the training is?

What I don't get is... is there even a 'routine' as such for endurance?

Eg: With 5x5, there is a routine, 5 sets 5 reps on squats, then after that you do 5 sets 5 reps of bench press, etc.
There is an amount and order of what to do when.

Is there anything like that for aerobic or is it, go walk 2km, if that is easy, walk 5km, if that is easy, add a weighted vest and walk 5km, when that gets easy, add more weight and walk the same distance.

Skipping, do it until you feel you can't go on anymore. Come back to it later in evening if you want to and do another round of it. Not 10 jumps or 20, but 1000+ if you can. Climb a hill, how long? Until you can't walk anymore? What about pulling a sled, do you just pull it as far as you can until you cant pull anymore, or is there a distance, 10 meters 5x per day. What about medicine ball throwing for core muscles, is it throw it 1000 times if you can (basically be a kid and run around all day until you cant anymore) or is there throw this way, that many times, do this do that etc (actual direction/amount, so on)

Thats what I don't understand, is it what I just said above, or is there "Walk this far, do skipping for this long" etc like a 5x5 program which has actual amounts of what to do for each rather than indefinite?

At the moment it looks abstract to me. Just "walk" or "just run" sure, i can go walk, and run, get tired, stop for 5min, then run another that much, stop for more min, then run again as far as i can... i mean, is there an actual method to all of this or is it abstract, do all i mentioned as far as you can and when it gets easy, add weight on your back and do it all over again until it gets easy, there is no time frames, amounts or anything. Just go until you cant go anymore?

 

[Anna C]

Ok I read through that MAF link.

Is it me or there is no actual training program there? Sorry I thought there was going to be some sort of routine guide for Aerobic/endurance training.

The training guidelines are at the bottom of this page: Method - Step 5 - Dr. Phil Maffetone

Basically to use your MAF HR as a guide, do 30 min 3x/week of aerobic activity at that HR (plus warm-up and cool-down), and slowly increase the time. More detail on this page: Aerobic Training Guidelines - Dr. Phil Maffetone. On that page you'll see this recommendation: "We suggest a minimum of three consecutive months of measurable aerobic improvement in order to ensure that the aerobic system is powerful enough to tolerate any anaerobic exercise."

So with this method, it's strictly based on heart rate -- obviously you'd need a HR monitor. I definitely recommend a HR monitor for cardio/endurance training.

Yes, with aerobic/endurance/cardio training it's still about creating a meaningful stress that your body then adapts to, building new capability for the next session, next week, next month, and then building on that to create a meaningful stress at the next level to repeat the process and continue disrupting homeostasis and force adaptations. So you give it a dose of stress (30 min every other day) and slowly increase (40 min every other day, 50 min every other day, by week) or start to vary it (30 min Monday, 45 min Wednesday, , 15 min Friday, 1 hour Saturday), just increasing your time at a reasonable rate, maybe 10% per week on the average. If you stay at a constant HR you'll start to notice that you can walk faster at that same HR as time goes by. Eventually you'll have to start jogging, or add more weight in your backpack, or increase the incline to even reach the target HR. This is why treadmills and rowers and stationary bikes actually can be easier to work with... you just adjust the resistance or level to put your HR right where you want it. But outside is better for many other reasons.

The MAF method is comprehensive - thus all the other health stuff - and focuses heavily on building the aerobic system. Other methods will have you doing higher intensity cardio mixed in - like intervals or HIIT or tempo, where you're going harder for a shorter time. You'll see quicker results if you add in this higher intensity stuff. But will the long-term results be as good? That I don't know, and many debate... You have to decide for yourself. I've done 2 extended periods of "base training" for 3 months, once in 2010 and again in 2016, and I believe it helped me. It certainly didn't hurt anything. It's boring, because you spend a lot of time at this moderately low HR. But you'll do good things to the body.

 

[vegpedlr]

MAF training is not boring to me. It’s relaxing. It’s pleasant. It feels good. Like Easy Strength, when I finish, I feel better than when I started. It is not exciting, or perhaps sexy enough for some folks, but for overall health and fitness it’s really good. You could train with high intensity, but why? There are real risks. MAF will get you there too, on the slow and scenic route. Unless you have endurance performance goals, then you may need the hard stuff.

 

[offwidth]

MAF training is not boring to me. It’s relaxing. It’s pleasant. It feels good. Like Easy Strength, when I finish, I feel better than when I started. It is not exciting, or perhaps sexy enough for some folks, but for overall health and fitness it’s really good. You could train with high intensity, but why? There are real risks. MAF will get you there too, on the slow and scenic route. Unless you have endurance performance goals, then you may need the hard stuff.

Agreed. If you are bored with something, you aren't paying enough attention....

 

[North Coast Miller]

Ok I read through that MAF link.

Is it me or there is no actual training program there? Sorry I thought there was going to be some sort of routine guide for Aerobic/endurance training.

All I saw was surveys whether you overtrain (I don't), whether you eat junk food (I don't, i eat whole foods all the time, no chemicals, no packaged foods, no dead foods etc), I sleep fine etc.

Uhm... that was more or less a health guide unless I have entirely missed where the training is?

What I don't get is... is there even a 'routine' as such for endurance?

Eg: With 5x5, there is a routine, 5 sets 5 reps on squats, then after that you do 5 sets 5 reps of bench press, etc.
There is an amount and order of what to do when.

Is there anything like that for aerobic or is it, go walk 2km, if that is easy, walk 5km, if that is easy, add a weighted vest and walk 5km, when that gets easy, add more weight and walk the same distance.

Skipping, do it until you feel you can't go on anymore. Come back to it later in evening if you want to and do another round of it. Not 10 jumps or 20, but 1000+ if you can. Climb a hill, how long? Until you can't walk anymore? What about pulling a sled, do you just pull it as far as you can until you cant pull anymore, or is there a distance, 10 meters 5x per day. What about medicine ball throwing for core muscles, is it throw it 1000 times if you can (basically be a kid and run around all day until you cant anymore) or is there throw this way, that many times, do this do that etc (actual direction/amount, so on)

Thats what I don't understand, is it what I just said above, or is there "Walk this far, do skipping for this long" etc like a 5x5 program which has actual amounts of what to do for each rather than indefinite?

At the moment it looks abstract to me. Just "walk" or "just run" sure, i can go walk, and run, get tired, stop for 5min, then run another that much, stop for more min, then run again as far as i can... i mean, is there an actual method to all of this or is it abstract, do all i mentioned as far as you can and when it gets easy, add weight on your back and do it all over again until it gets easy, there is no time frames, amounts or anything. Just go until you cant go anymore?

You have options such as MAF/LSD steady state work, HIIT as traditionally done using running or biking, or HIRT/HIIT variations done in circuits, or best of all worlds a blend of the above. This way you don't have to concern yourself with overtraining, or overuse.

It all depends on time. If you are short on time, limit most of your efforts to HIIT/HIRT, if you have more time to do LSD work, use that approach instead. HIIT protocol is pretty straightforward in terms of programming and can be found with a simple search, HIRT as used in intervals you can get a good idea from this link:
The Official Steve Maxwell Website

 

[Steve Freides]

@G-man, a bit of perspective might be in order. At 13 steps per flight, 1000 steps is roughly like walking up to the 75th floor. I don’t know many people who can do that easily. On flat ground, 1000 steps is about a half mile.

Start by walking easily for time or distance. Be able to walk for up to an hour. Then start looking for hills and steps. If you have access to several consecutive flights of stairs, add those to your training with appropriate rests between repeats.

Running up the Empire State Building is exhausting – and hugely rewarding

-S-

 

[Deleted member 6651]

Thanks.

Maybe my 1000 steps was a wee bit off, but it felt like that lol.

I generaly walk about 2-4km a day over 1-1.5 hour on flat ground without issue. That is why climbing up 20 steps and feeling tired I was surprised.

 

[Carl in Dover]

@G-man .....have you considered consulting with a coach.?

Carl in Dover

 

[Deleted member 6651]

@G-man .....have you considered consulting with a coach.?

Carl in Dover

No I haven't because everyone I know that is successful at gym said they are a complete waste of money as anything you need you can get online and that most of them don't have a clue what they are talking about as you can do a 3 week gym course and become a 'coach'. Whats a coach know after 3 weeks?

Unfortunately, I don't know Franco Columbo or someone of that level of success that I can trust I am paying for valuable instruction.