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Trap Bar deadlift nuances for quad strength

dfanelli83

Level 2 Valued Member
I work out in a home gym that for the most part has everything I need (trap bar, kettlebells, pullup bar, rings, sandbags). I am looking to target my legs a little bit more (quads specifically) to put on some mass and strength. Lately, my training has revolved much around single leg stuff (step-ups, single leg squat progressions, etc.).

I am close to being able to do pistol squats. I can do singles with my heel slightly elevated on a wedge, but my bottom position knee strength is lacking a big there. Also, I know in general, pistol squats are not the best choice for mass gain, as they are limited by balance/stability. So I was looking to complement some of the single leg stuff I have been doing, by adding in the heavier weight trap bar stuff.

I've seen Alan Thrall's discussion on TB deadlifts as well as Greg Nuckols, but wanted to get further advice to see if anyone had any input. My questions center around the following two options in general. Should I focus my TB deadlifts:

  1. The way that allows me to do the most weight, which would be higher hips like a deadlift, which will also target knee extension (quad) strength less. And then maybe target quads with more of the unilateral or higher reps squat pattern work?
  2. Or, focus on deficit TB deadlifts with a deep knee angle, which will most certainly require me to use much less weight (at least initially). For reference, if I were to do something like 3x5 with the higher hips, I'd be working in the 365 range likely, and with the more squat-like pattern, I'd have to start around 225?

Some other thoughts I have had:
  1. Can go with a slightly heavier weight and do the deadlift style for the concentric and then lower it under control with more of a squat pattern.
  2. Can start out with some heavier work deadlift style, maybe work up to a somewhat heavy set of 3-5, and then drop the weight down and do 2 sets of squat style.
  3. Pauses might be a good option. When I used to barbell squat in the gym, I had some good success with paused deadlifts, breathing paused squats, etc. I could potentially do some bottom position, deep knee bend overcoming isometrics or pauses first a sort of activation and then just proceed into the deadlift style for more weight.
 
I have a trap bar at home. I started doing Daily Dose Deadlifts, based on: Daily Dose Deadlift Plan | StrongFirst

If you're not familiar with DDD, it's 3-5 singles at 75% 1RM, 5 days a week. Serious strength builder. It's my 'go-to' hinge program, especially if I'm running a program without a hinge. I'll use DDD as part of my warmup.
 
You could run DDD, using high handles, low handles, hips low/high. The constant practice with your setup is a key feature doing singles. I tested my 1TRM and went with that for calculating, instead of a true 1RM test, so my 75% was somewhat conservative. At the end of my second run through I test 20lb higher on my PR.
 
Are you sure it's the knee flexion in the pistol that's causing you trouble, and not the hip flexion?

If you've been doing a lot of quad centric training already I'd recommend trying #3 and doing deadlifts with stiff legs and low handles.
 
For targeting the quads, there are a few exercises I like, none of which involve a trap bar (although I love the trap bar DL in general).

A sandbag or KB(s) held in the rack, goblet style, or hugged against the chest works great for all three.

Vince Gironda 3-part sissy squats:



Spanish squats:
-Squats with a band behind the knee anchored to a point at knee level in front of you so the band is parallel to the ground.
-Depending on the size of the band (you can use pretty heavy tension) you can use one band around both legs together or a band around each leg separately.
-Sit back with torso upright and shins close to vertical.
-Make sure to lock out and squeeze the quads at the top. That resistance at the top with the knee locked against the band tension is a lot o the value of the drill.

Cyclist squats:
-Narrow stance, heels elevated squats.
 
Antti said:
Are you sure it's the knee flexion in the pistol that's causing you trouble, and not the hip flexion?

If you've been doing a lot of quad centric training already I'd recommend trying #3 and doing deadlifts with stiff legs and low handles.
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Im pretty sure its weak(er) quads than hip extensors. This is just based on the disparity in strength between a higher hip deadlift type movement and a more knee flexion based squat movement.
 
Steve Freides said:
@dfanelli83, how about wearing Oly lifting shoes or using squat wedges and using the low handles?

-S-
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I experimented with this the last few workouts. I have tried low handles and standing on 3" box. This felt pretty good, but I'll experiment with the squat wedges as well.

My main purpose of this line of questioning was whether it is better to work in the more advantageous position (high hips) to allow more weight and then target the quads more with accessory work (ie: split squats after deadlifts). OR, lighten the weight for now, and turn the trap bar "deadlift" into a squat more to build up the strength of the quads directly.
 
silveraw said:
I'd add standing on a box/plate or two to increase the deficit and make the TB deadlift more "squattier" as well.
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This is what I am doing. Two other questions. Should I slow the eccentric down or not worry about it? And should I allow the weight to touch the ground each rep (touch and go)? I'm leaning toward not worrying about tempo and just doing touch and go.
 
Steve W. said:
For targeting the quads, there are a few exercises I like, none of which involve a trap bar (although I love the trap bar DL in general).

A sandbag or KB(s) held in the rack, goblet style, or hugged against the chest works great for all three.
(,,,)
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Good stuff. I do a version of assisted sissy squats for mobility/warming-up. Also, in the past I had done something like the "burlesque bump" he mentioned in the video. I forgot about those....

I do like goblet squats and sandbag squats, but have always tried using them for squats which was always limited by the arms. I'll try that with something more like the sissy squat... Thanks.
 
Boris Bachmann said:
Lately I feel like this is applicable to a lot of our discussions. Not that I dislike nuance - just that it can be putting the horse before the apple cart:
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I sorta feel you could say this about any question ever asked. The answer could always be just go do the big lifts and lift heavy weight. People have physical/equipment limitations and differences that make "nuance" necessary .

I can also see how my questions sort of fall into the typical "squats vs. deadlifts" camp. I could just do heavy deadlift style trap bar deadlifts AND squat style trap bar deadlifts to hit everything. And I certainly will do this, but I'm just trying to get to the specifics of how I program it. The knee angle/deficit could be an exercise rotation after a few weeks, could be a different day, or could be done in the same day.

But I get what you are saying.
 
dfanelli83 said:
I sorta feel you could say this about any question ever asked.
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No.
The answer could always be just go do the big lifts and lift heavy weight.
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No.
People have physical/equipment limitations and differences that make "nuance" necessary .
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Exercise selection, yes. Nuance is not what I would call that.
I can also see how my questions sort of fall into the typical "squats vs. deadlifts" camp.
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Yes. All of your questions point you in the direction of squatting. If you want to do that w. a trap bar, stay upright. Stand on a platform or use smaller diameter plates if you want greater range of motion.
 
The main goal seems to be to increase quad size and strength. Probably the best thing you have in your arsenal is KB Front Squat.

DDD with your trap bar as some have mentioned is a fun option for strength. Combined with high rep KB front squats 2-3x per week might be the combo you are looking for.

I might aim for 2 sets of 10, 3 sets of 10, 5 sets of 10, doing KB front squats 3x per week. It should be a weight where the 2 and 3 days feels good almost easy and the 5 is quite challenging.

I would probably continue to train the pistols but more for form. So 5-10 slowish singles every other day maybe before or after the DDD.
 
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After reviewing everyone's comments and some thought I think I am going to take a middle of the road approach by covering all my bases and varying the exercises by mesocycle.

1. Deeper trap bar "squats" as the "main move" for strength in the 3-5 rep range (usually 3x3), and then follow this or on another day do a higher rep hip dominant move (ie: single leg RDLs for 2-3x8-12)

2. Higher hip trap bar deadlifts as the "main move" same rep ranges as the main move before, followed by a quad dominant move for higher reps/volume (ie: Split squats or front squats)
 
silveraw said:
I'd add standing on a box/plate or two to increase the deficit and make the TB deadlift more "squattier" as well.
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Wooden Coke Crate

For Deficit Deadlifts or Deficit Trap Bar Squats, one of the best items is a Wooden Coke Crate. The kind designed with slots for 24 bottles; which reinforce the strength of it.

Standing On Plates

The issue with this is that if you stack metal plates on top of each other, they are going to slide.

The solution is...

EasyLiner Select Grip Shelf Liner, Light Gray, 12 in. x 10 ft. Roll

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Placing this Grip Shelf Liner between the plates, ensure the plates don't slide.

Another use for the Grip Shelf Linter is for the...

Bench Press

Some Bench Press Pad are a bit slick.

Thus, when driving with the Legs in the Bench Press, there can be some movement of the shoulder sliding while driving the weight up.
For situation like this, placing the Grip Shelf Liner on the Bench Pad nensure that your shoulder stick.

One additional item for pushing more weight in the Bench Press is...

The Tonic Neck Reflex

Here some interesting information on how the Tonic Neck Reflex (Tonic Labyrinthine Reflex) and Asymmetrical Tonic Neck Reflex increases strength. Most lifters/athletes do it without thinking about it, it is a reflex.

One of the prime examples of the Tonic Neck Reflex occurs in the bench press. (Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 5(4):188-191, November 1991.Berger, Richard A.; Smith, Kirby J.)

When most lifters bench, they drive their head into the bench as they push the bar up. Doing so elicits the Tonic Neck Reflex.

This reflex causes the arms to straighten, thus producing a stronger pushing movement when bench pressing.

In my observations, many heavyweight lifters evoke an even more pronounced Tonic Neck Reflex of driving the head into the bench when bench pressing. These heavyweight lifters will lift their head up off the bench as the bar is lowered to the chest.

Just as the bar touches their chest, they simultaneously drive their head into the bench. This appears to increase the Tonic Neck Reflex, producing more drive in pushing the weight up.

In a bilateral (two hand) pulling movement, the Tonic Neck Reflex is elicited when the lifter pulls their head forward, tucking their chin into their chest.

An example of this is cable rows or barbell curl. As you pull the weight into you, tucking your head into your chest causes your muscle to flex. Thus, you pull more weight.

In unilateral (one arm) movements, the Asymmetrical Tonic Reflex increases strength. This reflex is known as the "fencing reflex." The movement is like that of a fencer with a sword.

Turning the head to the right side, extends the right arm while flexing the left arm, and vice versa.

So, when performing a dumbbell over head press with your right hand, turning your head to the right causes the reflex of your right arm tp straighten, increasing your strength.

By the same token, when performing a dumbbell curl with your left arm, turning your head to the right causes a reflex of your left arm flexing (curling into you), thus increasing how much you curl.
 
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