PlanStrong/BuiltStrong Troubleshooting Plan Strong and supportive lifts/exercises

[Fredrik]

Hello everyone,
As of today I have written four plan strong programs, all for myself, and wanted to know how you think about troubleshooting and tweaking the program for personal needs.
I have been doing PS for pullups and KBMP, the pullups is my strongest of the two so KBMP is the focus of my question. When not improving or even regressing what are the variables you would tweak? I read this article: My Journey to the Beast: Pressing a 48kg Kettlebell | StrongFirst and started to think about whether it applies to PS? I calculated the volume by weight for my three last KBMP PS cycles and they were in order as follows:
35% weeks: 1338kg, 1556kg and 1316kg
15% weeks: 596kg, 718kg and 582kg
Is this way of thinking applicable at all for PS or does the program self regulate as long as you use Delta20 and vary ARI by at least 1% from cycle to cycle?
I am at the same 1RM for KBMP as I was before my first cycle in June and have been starting to think that I need to troubleshoot this. Are complementary exercises something that you use with PS or do you treat it as a complete stand alone program?

 

[Daniel Vintila]

I love plan strong and I use it a lot in my training, and sometimes even if I don't follow an actual PS I still use the same principles to have a 20% difference from session to session, not necessarily week to week.

. When not improving or even regressing what are the variables you would tweak?

It depends. Did you just run a cycle of 2 3 months, had good results and then started a new one right away and stayed the same or regressed? If that is the case after a cycle I personally do something different such as working on a variation of the main exercise ( work with some double bells rather than one), or just do some hypertrophy, or take a break from that exercise and focus on something else. If you underperform might be due to overtraining, too much volume too much intensity and not enough rest. So another thing you can look at is the volume, which is the main thing that gets your body tired, more than the intensity.

Another thing I do is have a recovery period after a cycle which is usually 3 months. 1 hypetrophy 1 strength 1 peak or 2 strength 1 peak and then have 4-6 weeks of recovery and train different lifts. So for example if I took a break from MP I would do BP or Push ups or something like that.

Are complementary exercises something that you use with PS or do you treat it as a complete stand alone program?

I do use assistance exercises at least for the hypetrophy and strength phase. At the moment training Deadlift for TSC using PS and in my hypertrophy phase I would do exercises to help with DL. My focus was on strong quads and a strong back so I was doing plenty of Pull ups (needed for TSC) + plenty of squats. In the peak phase I would cancel those and only perform the comp lifts. So if you train MP you could use bottom up presses, push ups, resistance band press or pull ups. But use exercises that would help with your sticking points.

Bottom line is there are a lot of things you can do differently in order to still progress and I would be happy to have more of chat and understand more of you training and find a solution so you can further progress.

 

[Steve Freides]

There is discussion and a chart in the PS manual about assistance exercises.

-S-

 

[Fredrik]

I love plan strong and I use it a lot in my training, and sometimes even if I don't follow an actual PS I still use the same principles to have a 20% difference from session to session, not necessarily week to week.

It depends. Did you just run a cycle of 2 3 months, had good results and then started a new one right away and stayed the same or regressed? If that is the case after a cycle I personally do something different such as working on a variation of the main exercise ( work with some double bells rather than one), or just do some hypertrophy, or take a break from that exercise and focus on something else. If you underperform might be due to overtraining, too much volume too much intensity and not enough rest. So another thing you can look at is the volume, which is the main thing that gets your body tired, more than the intensity.

Another thing I do is have a recovery period after a cycle which is usually 3 months. 1 hypetrophy 1 strength 1 peak or 2 strength 1 peak and then have 4-6 weeks of recovery and train different lifts. So for example if I took a break from MP I would do BP or Push ups or something like that.


I do use assistance exercises at least for the hypetrophy and strength phase. At the moment training Deadlift for TSC using PS and in my hypertrophy phase I would do exercises to help with DL. My focus was on strong quads and a strong back so I was doing plenty of Pull ups (needed for TSC) + plenty of squats. In the peak phase I would cancel those and only perform the comp lifts. So if you train MP you could use bottom up presses, push ups, resistance band press or pull ups. But use exercises that would help with your sticking points.

Bottom line is there are a lot of things you can do differently in order to still progress and I would be happy to have more of chat and understand more of you training and find a solution so you can further progress.

Thanks for your thoughts and input! I have done 4 months with no progress whatsoever, my press is the same as when I started my first PS70 cycle. My pullups have progressed a little bit but as a former competitive climber I am strong at pullups and am below my PR from back when I climbed a lot.
So I started to look at what the problem could be and read the article I attached. In this article the volume is measured by weight which progresses over five weeks (a slight variation of ETK). So I calculated the weight in the same way for my PS programs and the total weight/volume doesnt come close to what is suggested in the article or ETK. So I was wondering if the total weight lifted and progression of that from cycle to cycle is something to keep in mind when writing PS programs? The total weight/volume would obviously have to be calculated for the whole four week cycle because of the structure of PS. So I am thinking that maybe my total volume/weight has been to low and/or not progressed from cycle to cycle?
So is PS self regulating as long as you apply D20 and ARI goes up or down by 1% from cycle to cycle or do you have to build in a progression of total weight/volume? PS is mentioned in the article so I started to compare the two. If you are going to stay within the NL range for PS70 the volume/weight can only go so far, that is of course part of the program design but maybe PS doesnt work as well for everyone? Or maybe it works better if you are at a certain level when the total weight lifted naturally will be higher?

 

[Bauer]

When not improving or even regressing what are the variables you would tweak?

Difficult question.

I have not attended PlanStrong, but I have tried to reverse engineered the publicly available plans and also programmed my own wavy S&S version based on this.

You might be interested in "Victorious" by Fabio Zonin. a) For the technique pointers, and b) for the PlanStrong/BuildStrong style programming (250-400 reps per month).

The general principle is contrast/waviness and it seems to work both on a weekly and on daily basis. Q&D is based on the latter: You just vary volume from session to session. I believe this is favoured for people with irregular and hard to plan schedules.

One thing to look at might be: What kind of programs have given you the best results? The ones with more lifts at a lighter %RM or the ones with more lifts at a higher %RM? People respond differently to volume and intensity. Maybe add a cycle of more bodybuilding style programming. You could use Fabio Zonin's following plan for the presses and try to choose beels or exercise with a little higher TRM.

Simple Strength for Difficult Times Part Two: Get Even Stronger in Quarantine | StrongFirst

Use minimal gear and some creativity to get stronger during quarantine.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Fredrik]

Thanks @Bauer! Yes the PS program is based on waving of weekly/monthly load and volume which makes sense and I learned a lot from the PS online course which was hosted by Fabio Zonin. Once you learned it its not that difficult to write the programs but there is of course nuance and skill that goes into everything. The ultimate goal of a program like PS is of course to improve so when you dont you have to start to ask questions.
I looked at the program you suggested and it seems really good but since I attended the PS course I would like to understand that better and what I might have missed or could tweak for my personal needs.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

If you are going to stay within the NL range for PS70 the volume/weight can only go so far, that is of course part of the program design but maybe PS doesnt work as well for everyone?

PS is not made for beginners, thats for sure. So if you just start your lifting journey you can't start there. It is more of an intermediate to advanced lifting. You have to have some numbers on which you can base your new PS cycles. For example to have a 20% difference in NL from your previous 4 weeks of training at more than 70% RM in a certain lift.

So I am thinking that maybe my total volume/weight has been to low and/or not progressed from cycle to cycle?

Here it depends on many things. You might be right, so what you need to look at is how you felt during your sessions. Were light days easy and Heavy days Hard? Were all the days too hard or too easy?
Also how do you feel before your sessions? Do you recover well?

When not improving or even regressing what are the variables you would tweak?

The training volume and add in some assistance exercises to help with sticking points if you have any if not use them to create stronger muscles which help with the lift. Or maybe add in a cycle or 2 of hypertrophy before doing strength. That extra volume at lower intensity should be beneficial.

So is PS self regulating as long as you apply D20 and ARI goes up or down by 1% from cycle to cycle or do you have to build in a progression of total weight/volume?

I hardly calculate the actual weight/volume. As long as the ARI varies by1% from cycle to cycle is ok. Also as you get stronger you might need less volume than before, so that's something to look at. What is your MP history and your actual RM? Also you could try and play with adding more volume at 70% than previous cycles, or more at 80%. I personally make a lot of progress when I lift a lot between 70-80% RM. So I always put 55-60% of my lifts in that area all the time, sometimes even more.
Bottom line I would say it does self regulate, as the percentages will always stay the same regardless of your new RM. The most important thing is to stay withing the rep ranges and NL daily per exercise.

So I was wondering if the total weight lifted and progression of that from cycle to cycle is something to keep in mind when writing PS programs?

Yes I suppose you could use that as a way to compare older cycles to newer ones, but I don't think it should influence your new PS70 cycle.

As you know there are some things that are not very logical and hard to break down in PS70 and as much as other programs refer to it PS is a unique program on its own. Some of the principles mentioned in that articles are the same with PS70 but creating a training program is nothing like PS.

 

[Steve Freides]

There is discussion and a chart in the PS manual about assistance exercises.

I don't have the manual in front of me, but the general gist of the chart is that the more advanced a lifter is with a particular lift, the more they will generally use assistance work. The chart and discussion gives guidance about how to do the math in terms of figuring which movements might count towards the main lift's number of lifts and which not.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

You might be interested in "Victorious" by Fabio Zonin. a) For the technique pointers

Absolutely! There's no better way to improve your numbers than to improve your technique.

-S-

 

[Fredrik]

Here it depends on many things. You might be right, so what you need to look at is how you felt during your sessions. Were light days easy and Heavy days Hard? Were all the days too hard or too easy?
Also how do you feel before your sessions? Do you recover well?

All of my sessions so far have felt not necessarily easy but comfortable and never any problems to do all of the reps. I have not experienced any soreness or problems with recovery either so I am thinking that I would need to stress the system a bit more.

The training volume and add in some assistance exercises to help with sticking points if you have any if not use them to create stronger muscles which help with the lift. Or maybe add in a cycle or 2 of hypertrophy before doing strength. That extra volume at lower intensity should be beneficial.

PS is not made for beginners, thats for sure. So if you just start your lifting journey you can't start there.

I am not very advanced when it comes to KBMP (current 1RM is 24kg) so I might need some more volume but then again my pullups are at a higher level than my KBMP (36kg + 76kg BW) and still not improving significantly with PS.
I could go for higher NL overall and maybe try PS50 for my press?
I could also try an ETK style program for one or two 5-week cycles to easily get in more volume at my 75-85% 1RM?

 

[Steve Freides]

@Fredrik, what has your schedule of prep and comp cycles been?

-S-

 

[Fredrik]

@Steve Freides I have done four prep cycles in a row. I am not very experienced with KBMP and thought I would accumulate some volume before doing a comp cycle, and also I didnt improve from cycle to cycle so have been trying to tweak the prep cycle.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

All of my sessions so far have felt not necessarily easy but comfortable and never any problems to do all of the reps. I have not experienced any soreness or problems with recovery either so I am thinking that I would need to stress the system a bit more.


I am not very advanced when it comes to KBMP (current 1RM is 24kg) so I might need some more volume but then again my pullups are at a higher level than my KBMP (36kg + 76kg BW) and still not improving significantly with PS.
I could go for higher NL overall and maybe try PS50 for my press?
I could also try an ETK style program for one or two 5-week cycles to easily get in more volume at my 75-85% 1RM?

Yes you could do a different program for your MP for now or do a PS with hypertrophy+strength+peak and test.
As for your pull ups. At what kb weight did you start your first PS cycle? 32? 28? or you already were able to do 36 and then you did a cycle and still no improvement on top of the 36?
You have plenty of room for improvement in the press, and your pull ups are quite advanced. So what you might need is to take a few stepts back with your pull ups and just keep your intensity low and add in more volume as well. Some assistance exercises might be needed as well.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Fredrik, IMO the next two things you should do are: post a video of your MP here, and watch Victorious; in either order.

I would not test 1RM without a comp cycle. Thing #3 on my list for you is write and execute a comp cycle. Generally speaking again, and without the manual in front of me, while one can do an unlimited number of prep cycles, I think two prep cycles followed by a comp cycle is a good rhythm for most people and purposes. And although I don't think the manual mentions this, but I'd plan my two prep cycles to go up in volume from the first to the second because the comp cycle will take you down in volume and up in intensity and get you ready for a 1RM test.

-S-

 

[Daniel Vintila]

So what you might need is to take a few stepts back with your pull ups and just keep your intensity low and add in more volume as well.

So we know that more advanced people actually need less volume in general but that is when you work at 80%+. What I am saying is put in some more work at 70% or less.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

@Steve Freides I have done four prep cycles in a row. I am not very experienced with KBMP and thought I would accumulate some volume before doing a comp cycle, and also I didnt improve from cycle to cycle so have been trying to tweak the prep cycle.

Just saw this. If this is the case just do what Steve said. A comp cycle will get you ready to test a new RM.

 

[Fredrik]

@Daniel Vintila I started PS with my pullup 1RM at 34kg so not a lot of improvement there either. I might do a hypertrophy cycle and I see the value in that but in general my goal is as much strength as possible with just the right amount of mass.
@Steve Freides I will record my MP and post it and try to write a comp cycle.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

@Daniel Vintila I started PS with my pullup 1RM at 34kg so not a lot of improvement there either. I might do a hypertrophy cycle and I see the value in that but in general my goal is as much strength as possible with just the right amount of mass.
@Steve Freides I will record my MP and post it and try to write a comp cycle.

I see what you mean. Could you share your PS for the pull up training? did you choose your starting NL based on previous training cycles?
Also at these levels it takes longer to progress. 2kg progress is still progress. But make sure you run a cycle with at least 1 strength+1comp

 

[Steve Freides]

Could you share your PS for the pull up training?

I would prefer that we not get into that level of detail here on our public forum about PlanStrong.

Thanks.

-S-

 

[flightposite]

I would prefer that we not get into that level of detail here on our public forum about PlanStrong.

Thanks.

-S-

Is the old PS members only forum still here?
I haven’t seen it since the new reorganization of the forum.