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Uphill Lunges for Strong Endurance, Health, and Fat Loss

To the casual observer, trying to equate typical training, the control group, to the experimental group's training because they see "lactic threshold" and think they are the same is a common mistake.

The control group is doing general cardio vascular training, type I fiber training, smokers, getting the training effect of pushing the lactic threshold directly for general adaptation.
As far as I can tell, we don't really know what intensity distribution the control group saw because intensity wasn't monitored and the article doesn't say anything about the instructions they got, except that two sessions a week were "fast."
Not sure that would help much at this rate, unless you'd care to elaborate on why this is an important distinction? Since anaerobic threshold is often defined as the lactate threshold...
A lot of literature distinguishes between the first and second lactate thresholds. The first is sometimes called the aerobic threshold, the second sometimes anaerobic. But sometimes not, and the business of eyeballing discontinuities in a continuous curve fitted to point samples is necessarily fraught. Clarity to the point of pedantry is a reasonable demand here.
(see e.g. and of course this is only lactate, not ventilation or power-duration or heart rate or respiratory quotient)
 
As far as I can tell, we don't really know what intensity distribution the control group saw because intensity wasn't monitored and the article doesn't say anything about the instructions they got, except that two sessions a week were "fast."

A lot of literature distinguishes between the first and second lactate thresholds. The first is sometimes called the aerobic threshold, the second sometimes anaerobic. But sometimes not, and the business of eyeballing discontinuities in a continuous curve fitted to point samples is necessarily fraught. Clarity to the point of pedantry is a reasonable demand here.
(see e.g. and of course this is only lactate, not ventilation or power-duration or heart rate or respiratory quotient)


From the Tupiev 2012 paper via Google translate:
The purpose of the work was to investigate changes in physical performance indicators of qualified biathletes as a result of the use of a special aerobic-strength exercise performed at the threshold of anaerobic metabolism. The study involved biathletes of 1-2 categories (n = 34, 16.5 ± 1.9 years), who were divided into two groups that trained for 6 weeks according to different programs. It was revealed that the use of aerobic strength training, which is not typical for biathletes, exercises controlled by heart rate at the level of the anaerobic threshold with a parallel decrease in the volume of loads led to a significant increase in local muscular endurance and performance of the cardiovascular system.
I'll need to work on a way to translate the PDF later, assuming it has the data you mentioned, agreed, this should be good to know, but it seems that the control group did not have the same constraints as the experimental group.
 
I'm really not understanding how this is anti-glycolytic. Anyone care to help me out? Maybe I'm not understanding the current definition of anti-glycolytic.
 
I'm really not understanding how this is anti-glycolytic. Anyone care to help me out? Maybe I'm not understanding the current definition of anti-glycolytic.
I don't think it is, a number of minutes at anaerobic threshold followed by recovery and repeating it again is anaerobic endurance training aka 'metcon' style training that strong endurance heavily discourages
 
As far as I can tell, we don't really know what intensity distribution the control group saw because intensity wasn't monitored and the article doesn't say anything about the instructions they got, except that two sessions a week were "fast."

A lot of literature distinguishes between the first and second lactate thresholds. The first is sometimes called the aerobic threshold, the second sometimes anaerobic. But sometimes not, and the business of eyeballing discontinuities in a continuous curve fitted to point samples is necessarily fraught. Clarity to the point of pedantry is a reasonable demand here.
(see e.g. and of course this is only lactate, not ventilation or power-duration or heart rate or respiratory quotient)

Very well made points.
The article must be referring to anaerobic threshold as if it was aerobic threshold there would be no need to recover as such as it would be low enough intensity to continue at that output for multiple hours.
 
I'm really not understanding how this is anti-glycolytic. Anyone care to help me out? Maybe I'm not understanding the current definition of anti-glycolytic.
I understood anti glycolytic to be short work bouts fuelled mostly by the alactic system with aerobic recovery thereby avoiding the burn of the anaerobic system, and the duration of the total workout improved endurance/work capacity, even though this wasn't the outright goal.
 
@JamesH11 @John K
To anyone asking how this fits into AGT: Pavel discusses this in Strong Endurance Express.

Basically you are flirting with mild acidosis/glycolysis, and then adjust work and rest times so you can repeat it at the same quality over and over again. When you are further away from your max power, sets can become much longer. The aerobic system will work in the rest periods to clear your unwanted waste products and thus make it a repeat method in line with AGT.

This is more of a Metal Heart application, not working your IIX fibers, but more IIA and probably some type I.
 
I'm really not understanding how this is anti-glycolytic. Anyone care to help me out? Maybe I'm not understanding the current definition of anti-glycolytic.
Anti-glycolytic would mean not training for lactate tolerance via training at high lactate levels.

I personally think the name "anti-glycolytic" is misleading, but it is apt insofar as you aren't training the the body's ability to deal with high lactate levels with lactate, you're training those systems and improving those qualities by training the alactic and aerobic systems.

Extreme emphasis on sports specific performance.

Respectfully, reread Pavel's books and crack open some Verkhoshansky; the definition hasn't changed, it just isn't what you thought it was.
 
@JamesH11 @John K
To anyone asking how this fits into AGT: Pavel discusses this in Strong Endurance Express.

Basically you are flirting with mild acidosis/glycolysis, and then adjust work and rest times so you can repeat it at the same quality over and over again. When you are further away from your max power, sets can become much longer. The aerobic system will work in the rest periods to clear your unwanted waste products and thus make it a repeat method in line with AGT.

This is more of a Metal Heart application, not working your IIX fibers, but more IIA and probably some type I.
That's just traditional endurance training; in running and cycling they are called sweet spot intervals or cruise intervals.
 
From the Tupiev 2012 paper via Google translate:

I'll need to work on a way to translate the PDF later, assuming it has the data you mentioned, agreed, this should be good to know, but it seems that the control group did not have the same constraints as the experimental group.
I've attached Google translation. Pull quote:
The control group (n=17; 16.5±1.5
years; 173.7±5.8 cm; 63.4±6.9 kg) trained
without taking into account individual anaerobic levels.
In contrast to the
experimental group, 6 classes were held per week,
Sunday was rest (Table 2). On Monday and Thursday -
long training on roller skis (up to 120 minutes), on
Tuesday and Friday - high-speed work on roller skis (up
to 90 minutes) on rough terrain. On Wednesday and
Saturday – simulated jumps uphill with sticks 15-20 times
for 1-1.5 minutes (up to 30 minutes) [4].
(sorry for pdf spacing)

What I take from this is that we can't really say how hard they were going. We don't have aggregate data on time in zone or whatever, and it doesn't say anything like "athletes were instructed to take it easy/deliver maximal effort/hit a 5-7 RPE." "High-speed work" and "simulated jumps" could be quasi-steady state or intervals at any intensity or pure plyo work in the case of jumps, the "long" effort could be hard or easy or somewhere in between or bits of one and bits of another, we can't really say.
 

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I've attached Google translation. Pull quote:

(sorry for pdf spacing)

What I take from this is that we can't really say how hard they were going. We don't have aggregate data on time in zone or whatever, and it doesn't say anything like "athletes were instructed to take it easy/deliver maximal effort/hit a 5-7 RPE." "High-speed work" and "simulated jumps" could be quasi-steady state or intervals at any intensity or pure plyo work in the case of jumps, the "long" effort could be hard or easy or somewhere in between or bits of one and bits of another, we can't really say.
That pdf is hard to read..

We would need a subject matter expert on "traditional training means for biathletes[4]."

Luckily, the reference is listed at the bottom of the pdf snip:

4. Myakinchenko, E.B. Development of local muscle endurance in cyclic sports / E.B. Myakinchenko, V.N. Seluyanov – M.: TVT Division, 2005. –338 p.
^ seems to be a protocol calling out all the things that are uncertain. I have to sift through a few search results, but I bet the answer lies ahead.
 
Basically you are flirting with mild acidosis/glycolysis, and then adjust work and rest times so you can repeat it at the same quality over and over again. When you are further away from your max power, sets can become much longer. The aerobic system will work in the rest periods to clear your unwanted waste products and thus make it a repeat method in line with AGT
Huh, so basically TB 2 AA templates.

I always wondered why TB and StrongEndurance both come from the same source material but the SE stuff I saw seemed slightly different.

I just never saw the SE stuff that directly overlaps TB. This sounds like it is exactly that. 1-2 minutes of hard work followed by enough rest to repeat it.
 
While it is good to try to understand some of the underlying mechanisms of some training protocols, it might also be a slippery slope as well. If one ask enough of how or why questions, he will hit to one of these barriers. Either the barrier of his comprehension capability based on his knowledge on the topic or based on the limitations of our understanding of human biology.

Feynman, one of the greatest scientist ever lived explains this very nicely although on a different topic.



A fun fact, scientists don’t know how hypertrophy exactly works. This is true for many human adaptations. If we ask any coach a few why and how questions about hypertrophy he will very quickly hit to the limit of scientists understanding of hypertrophy. This will not change the value of that coaches hypertrophy program.

Pavel does an extraordinary job in describing the logic behind some of the groundbreaking plans and protocols. But we like it or not he is bounded by human understanding of human biology. And it is surprisingly limited than general publics assumptions.

At some point, we have to say, okay, if it works it works…
 
While it is good to try to understand some of the underlying mechanisms of some training protocols, it might also be a slippery slope as well. If one ask enough of how or why questions, he will hit to one of these barriers. Either the barrier of his comprehension capability based on his knowledge on the topic or based on the limitations of our understanding of human biology.

Feynman, one of the greatest scientist ever lived explains this very nicely although on a different topic.



A fun fact, scientists don’t know how hypertrophy exactly works. This is true for many human adaptations. If we ask any coach a few why and how questions about hypertrophy he will very quickly hit to the limit of scientists understanding of hypertrophy. This will not change the value of that coaches hypertrophy program.

Pavel does an extraordinary job in describing the logic behind some of the groundbreaking plans and protocols. But we like it or not he is bounded by human understanding of human biology. And it is surprisingly limited than general publics assumptions.

At some point, we have to say, okay, if it works it works…

Pavel and Strong first are absolutely brilliant but I just feel a bit disappointed that this is being labelled as groundbreaking or revolutionary when training just under anaerobic threshold for a few minutes recovering and going again has been used in endurance sports for practically forever. A + A on the other hand is a great way to improve power whilst also getting some endurance as a 'what the hell effect'.
 
While it is good to try to understand some of the underlying mechanisms of some training protocols, it might also be a slippery slope as well. If one ask enough of how or why questions, he will hit to one of these barriers. Either the barrier of his comprehension capability based on his knowledge on the topic or based on the limitations of our understanding of human biology.

Feynman, one of the greatest scientist ever lived explains this very nicely although on a different topic.



A fun fact, scientists don’t know how hypertrophy exactly works. This is true for many human adaptations. If we ask any coach a few why and how questions about hypertrophy he will very quickly hit to the limit of scientists understanding of hypertrophy. This will not change the value of that coaches hypertrophy program.

Pavel does an extraordinary job in describing the logic behind some of the groundbreaking plans and protocols. But we like it or not he is bounded by human understanding of human biology. And it is surprisingly limited than general publics assumptions.

At some point, we have to say, okay, if it works it works…

Classic Feynman…
 
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This thread really took off!

I am not entirely confident that I am going to articulate my thoughts clearly on this but will do my best.

The protocol, IMO, is a way to accumulate a lot of work at a given effort without as much systemic fatigue such that it can be repeated more frequently over time.

I don't see it as revolutionary but something that is starting to become a lot more popular with the success of Jakob Ingebrigtsen and some of the Norwegian triathletes.

The protocol is just another way to implement it based upon time domains instead of doing running, cycling, swimming, rowing, etc. intervals.

The article starts with this - "The experimental group spent 25% less time training and did only one weekly aerobic ski roller session plus anti-glycolytic uphill lunges—stand by for details—4 days a week".

It then goes on to provide a protocol of 2:00 to 2:30 work at lactate threshold HR, rest of anywhere between 2:00 to 5:00 depending on fitness, and then a bunch of repeats so that anywhere from 20:00 to 50:00 of total work might be accumulated.

Lactate threshold HR is commonly defined as the maximum output that could be sustained relatively consistently for a period of 60 mins. Doing an effort of 20:00 to 50:00 at this target intensity straight through would certainly generate some kind of systemic fatigue that would require recovering before attempting again, with the longer durations creating a longer recovery period requirement. However, if you break this up into intervals (2:00 to 2:30) with rest / recovery between, you will likely be able to perform this session with more frequency. The result? Much more work at a higher intensity without overtraining.

Again, I don't think it's revolutionary per se, just a different take or spin on things, in which you use a non-specific modality to improve performance based upon effort or output. What would be more interesting to me is if there was an experiment where they compared specific modalities vs. non-specific modalities, controlling for relative effort and protocols, to see which improves performance more.
 
This thread really took off!

I am not entirely confident that I am going to articulate my thoughts clearly on this but will do my best.

The protocol, IMO, is a way to accumulate a lot of work at a given effort without as much systemic fatigue such that it can be repeated more frequently over time.

I don't see it as revolutionary but something that is starting to become a lot more popular with the success of Jakob Ingebrigtsen and some of the Norwegian triathletes.

The protocol is just another way to implement it based upon time domains instead of doing running, cycling, swimming, rowing, etc. intervals.

The article starts with this - "The experimental group spent 25% less time training and did only one weekly aerobic ski roller session plus anti-glycolytic uphill lunges—stand by for details—4 days a week".

It then goes on to provide a protocol of 2:00 to 2:30 work at lactate threshold HR, rest of anywhere between 2:00 to 5:00 depending on fitness, and then a bunch of repeats so that anywhere from 20:00 to 50:00 of total work might be accumulated.

Lactate threshold HR is commonly defined as the maximum output that could be sustained relatively consistently for a period of 60 mins. Doing an effort of 20:00 to 50:00 at this target intensity straight through would certainly generate some kind of systemic fatigue that would require recovering before attempting again, with the longer durations creating a longer recovery period requirement. However, if you break this up into intervals (2:00 to 2:30) with rest / recovery between, you will likely be able to perform this session with more frequency. The result? Much more work at a higher intensity without overtraining.

Again, I don't think it's revolutionary per se, just a different take or spin on things, in which you use a non-specific modality to improve performance based upon effort or output. What would be more interesting to me is if there was an experiment where they compared specific modalities vs. non-specific modalities, controlling for relative effort and protocols, to see which improves performance more.
Specific always beats non-specific, all things being (relatively) equal, i.e a world class cyclist would always perform better at cycling than a world class runner and vice versa. However a world class endurance athlete (in any sport) would likely outperform a recreational athlete (trained at only a low level) at their sport due to overall conditioning etc etc
 
Specific always beats non-specific, all things being (relatively) equal, i.e a world class cyclist would always perform better at cycling than a world class runner and vice versa. However a world class endurance athlete (in any sport) would likely outperform a recreational athlete (trained at only a low level) at their sport due to overall conditioning etc etc
For the most part, I agree, but then it comes down to what is truly "specific".

I think specificity exists on a bit of a continuum. Here's an example that I think gets across what I am trying to say.

In rowing, the 2k is a pretty standard distance; let's use 7:00 as the target time to establish the time domain of the event.

Specificity in that case is rowing at 2k target pace (1:45/500m, or 302w, give or take) with target stroke rate, let's just establish r30 as the target for example. Anything besides 302w for 7:00 at r30 is not actually specific. The modality is specific but there are other things that are not - pace/power, stroke rate, time domain, etc.

I don't think anyone would make the argument that the only way to improve a 2k is by doing 2k's - that is one aspect of training but not the only thing you need to do.

You could train at a similar stroke rate (r30) but different target pace, you could train at a similar pace (302w) but with a different stoke rate, or you could train at a similar SPI (watts per stroke; 10.x); all are using rowing as a specific modality but they are one step removed from a 7:00 2k at r30.

Now going one step further away, you can train with various paces, stroke rates, or SPI's. Again, all using rowing as the modality but not necessarily specific to the actual 7:00 2k at r30.

All of this might help to build a 7:00 2k at r30 but it's not necessarily specific.

There are some who make the argument that by training with a specific modality but in a way that is non-specific to the target, you can experience a bit of technique spoliation for a lack of better words. Klaas Lok speaks about this in a way in "The Easy Interval" method where you need to run fast to run fast; you can't just plod along without regularly touching on the specific target. Nils van der Poel notes something similar in "How to Skate a 10k". They take the position that, if you are going to move away from specificity to train aspects of what is needed for the event, then it's better to do that with different modalities to preserve technique.

Using the 7:00 2k at r30; you need a certain amount of several physical attributes - aerobic capacity, strength, power expression, etc.

There is definitely something to be said about using the modality to get better at the modality.

However, in order to develop the aerobic capacity needed for a 7:00 2k at r30, training rowing at lower pace / power, lower stroke rate, or lower SPI might spoil the exact technique needed for the target so it might be better to do the aerobic training with a different modality like cycling, running, etc. In order to develop the power needed, it might be better to focus on a different modality like actual strength training in the weight room as opposed to rowing at a higher drag factor (ie. rowing with more resistance) because rowing with a different drag factor can impact the speed of the stroke and thus the technique, stroke rate, etc.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with the Klaas Lok and Nils van der Poel stuff through and through but I do think there is some merit. Do you need to row to improve rowing? 100% yes. After a certain amount of rowing though, is it better to row more, or is it better to do other things that improve the qualities needed for a certain rowing performance?
 
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