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Nutrition Went off keto for 3 weeks and here’s what happened

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IMayAgainKnowChris

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Went high carb low fat for a few weeks and here’s what happened... this was a diet of rice, lentils, veggies, lean protein, gluten free bread and wraps...

The bad: Immediate bloating. Gas. 10lb weight gain in 3 weeks and had to loosen the belt one knotch. Felt sloppy. Mid day tiredness. Hungry 24/7
The good: Muscle pump for sure.

Going back to beef and eggs and some veggies to add variety.
I went in whole heartedly trying to see how I felt and it was pretty nasty. Can’t believe how much better I feel after only 3-4 days back on high fat low carb. Night and day.

Gave it a fair shot and it didn’t work for me. Guess if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Taking some advice around here and gonna stick to 1lb of meat a day and a few eggs or so for a while instead of trying to slam 2-3 lbs a day. May have been getting too much calories from fat and that’s why my weight plateaued at 175. Definitely sort of stopped losing body fat before switching it up.
 
It's a good idea to test things out every now and then, see what suits you and what doesn't.

Regarding the bloating I find that certain flora don't suit me, like most beans. I wonder if vegans on a high protein diet get used to it. Though I think I remember reading about John Berardi, a high profile nutrition coach, going on a vegan diet to prove one can build muscle that way, and he was successful, but he bloated something like ten inches every day. I suppose he got better with it with time but never that good.

How often did you eat? Did you have a consistent meal schedule, both frequency and nutrition wise?
 
When I went hi-pro veg I got used to it in about 2 weeks as I recall, it didn't take much adapting.

I'm pretty varied now, I can lean my diet heavy in pretty much any macro % except for very high fat - you might as well put me on laxatives. I don't think I'm compatible with keto, but if you stick with anything long enough the gut flora will meet you half way most of the time.
 
I'm with you on the keto/carnivore approach. I really feel like that's a slow & steady pace for fat loss and overall performance (I can genrally do Timeless Simple daily eating this way). I find if I'm just eating straight meat (beef in particular) I can crush 2-lbs easy. However, when I add in eggs, I don't need as much. A rather filling meal is a 1-lb ground beef & 4 egg yolks (mixed into the ground after it's cooked) with some spices. That's fuel for a pump. Up it a notch & make sure your beef is grass-finished and your eggs are Amish raised on minimal grains, and you're in for a treat!!
 
It's a good idea to test things out every now and then, see what suits you and what doesn't.

Regarding the bloating I find that certain flora don't suit me, like most beans. I wonder if vegans on a high protein diet get used to it. Though I think I remember reading about John Berardi, a high profile nutrition coach, going on a vegan diet to prove one can build muscle that way, and he was successful, but he bloated something like ten inches every day. I suppose he got better with it with time but never that good.

How often did you eat? Did you have a consistent meal schedule, both frequency and nutrition wise?
Pretty dialed in schedule. May have been the beans.
 
Pretty transitional switch. But in the grand scheme of things even a week of transitioning isn’t that long huh?
I would imagine at least a month, but even that would be pushing it, depending on how long you've been following a strict keto approach.
 
10lb weight gain in 3 weeks
Weight Gain

1) Water Weight

As you know, that mostly was due to a water weight gain.

For every one gram of carbohydrate stored in the body (as glycogen) there is approximately 2-3 grams of water retained.

2) Dr Jake Wilson Research

Wilson research (University of Tampa Human Performance Lab) research on the Ketogenic Diet determined...

a) Increasing carbohydrate intake too quickly also increased body fat.

Wilson found that when coming off a Ketogenic Diet, it was better to increase carbohydrate intake slowly, as follows.

Days 1-3: 100 grams of carbohydrates

Days 1-3: 200 grams of carbohydrates

Days 1-3: 300 grams of carbohydrates

Something else Wilson found was with...

Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

This is means following a Ketogenic Diet for 5 days and then Carbohydrate Loading for two days, as with Bodyopus and The Anabolic Diet protocol.

1) After two days of Carbohydrate Loading, it took individual about 4 day too burn through the glucose storage and get back into ketosis.

2) Individual who followed a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet gained more body fat.

May have been getting too much calories from fat and that’s why my weight plateaued at 175.

Calories Count

No matter what diet you follow, calories matter. So, your may have been consuming too many calories; you weren't in a calorie deficit.

A Personal Perspective On Calories

As I have posted on this site, I was diagnosed with a metabolic condition. Intermittent Fasting and the Ketogenic Diet were two method that were indicated that might help me.

I overreacted. I started the Ketogenic Diet and only had two meals a day, Intermittent Fasting.

Losing Weight

I lost 17 lb in 35 day; which was not my intent. That means I average losing half a pound a day.

I do not recommend this approach.

I then decide to...

Regaining The Weight Back

1) I went back to three meals a day: with an occasional Intermittent Fast.

2) I remained on the Ketogenic Diet. I have been on it since July 2016.

To increase my calorie and remain on the Ketogenic Diet...

I dramatically increase my fat intake: Coconut Oil Solid, Liquid Coconut Oil, MCT Oil, Oliver Oil, Avocado Oil, Butter, etc.

I gained back 15 pounds.

Summary

1) Calorie Count regardless of the diet.

2) The MATADOR Weight Loss Plan

This method follows the protocol of what Bodybuilders have done for decades to gain weight (Bulk) and decrease body fat (Cut).

Calorie are rotated up for two weeks and then down for two weeks. The research determined that this method allowed you to maximally decrease body fat levels while maintain muscle mass, when it come to weight loss.

The same approach works for increasing muscle mass while minimizing fat gain to gain weight.

Research by Dr John Ivy and Layne Norton, independent of each other, came to the same conclusion.

Rotating Calorie intake up or down approximately 20% was the optimal zone for obtaining optimal results.

While Bodybuilder got the theory of Bulk and Cut Cycles right, one of the issue was that their calorie surplus or deficit of calories was too high

The mentality of a lot more or a lot less is better wasn't true. It was worse.
 
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Weight Gain

1) Water Weight

As you know, that mostly was due to a water weight gain.

For every one gram of carbohydrate stored in the body (as glycogen) there is approximately 2-3 grams of water retained.

2) Dr Jake Wilson Research

Wilson research (University of Tampa Human Performance Lab) research on the Ketogenic Diet determined...

a) Increasing carbohydrate intake too quickly also increased body fat.

Wilson found that when coming off a Ketogenic Diet, it was better to increase carbohydrate intake slowly, as follows.

Days 1-3: 100 grams of carbohydrates

Days 1-3: 200 grams of carbohydrates

Days 1-3: 300 grams of carbohydrates

Something else Wilson found was with...

Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

This is means following a Ketogenic Diet for 5 days and then Carbohydrate Loading for two days, as with Bodyopus and The Anabolic Diet protocol.

1) After two days of Carbohydrate Loading, it took individual about 4 day too burn through the glucose storage and get back into ketosis.

2) Individual who followed a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet gained more body fat.



Calories Count

No matter what diet you follow, calories matter. So, your may have been consuming too many calories; you weren't in a calorie deficit.

A Personal Perspective On Calories

As I have posted on this site, I was diagnosed with a metabolic condition. Intermittent Fasting and the Ketogenic Diet were two method that were indicated that might help me.

I overreacted. I started the Ketogenic Diet and only had two meals a day, Intermittent Fasting.

Losing Weight

I lost 17 lb in 35 day; which was not my intent. That means I average losing half a pound a day.

I do not recommend this approach.

I then decide to...

Regaining The Weight Back

1) I went back to three meals a day: with an occasional Intermittent Fast.

2) I remained on the Ketogenic Diet. I have been on it since July 2016.

To increase my calorie and remain on the Ketogenic Diet...

I dramatically increase my fat intake: Coconut Oil Solid, Liquid Coconut Oil, MCT Oil, Oliver Oil, Avocado Oil, Butter, etc.

I gained back 15 pounds.

Summary

1) Calorie Count regardless of the diet.

2) The MATADOR Weight Loss Plan

This method follows the protocol of what Bodybuilders have done for decades to gain weight (Bulk) and decrease body fat (Cut).

Calorie are rotated up for two weeks and then down for two weeks. The research determined that this method allowed you to maximally decrease body fat levels while maintain muscle mass, when it come to weight loss.

The same approach works for increasing muscle mass while minimizing fat gain to gain weight.

Research by Dr John Ivy and Layne Norton, independent of each other, came to the same conclusion.

Rotating Calorie intake up or down approximately 20% was the optimal zone for obtaining optimal results.

While Bodybuilder got the theory of Bulk and Cut Cycles right, one of the issue was that their calorie surplus or deficit of calories was too high

The mentality of a lot more or a lot less is better wasn't true. It was worse.

Great info. Do you have any experience with targeted ketogenic diets? Like carbs pre workout on heavy days but low carb the rest of the time?
 
Do you have any experience with targeted ketogenic diets?
No

No experience with Targeted Keto.

I am not quite sure what the purpose of it is.

Research shows that a Keto Adapted individual has the same amount of muscle glycogen as someone on a Standard American Diet. So, why would you need carbohydrates prior to training?

Secondly, MCT Oil enters the system for energy, just as quickly as high glycemic index carbohydrates, for use as immediate energy. You might consider MCT.

However, too much MCT Oil can give gastric problems.

I found mixing MCT Oil with Liquid Coconut Oil eliminated that issue.

Liquid Coconut Oil has less Lauric Acid; which is what makes Coconut Oil solid at room temperature. Since Lauric Acid is not actually a Medium Chain Triglyceride, Liquid Coconut Oil has more MCTs.

With that said, I have not noted much of a difference in my strength or energy levels in strength training sessions with using it.

Like carbs pre workout on heavy days but low carb the rest of the time?

Heavy Training Days

One of the issues with training on a Ketogenic Diet is that many individual train the same way as they did on a Standard American Diet. I initially did that was well. It didn't work well for me and I question if it does for others.

Think of like this. The way you train for Maximum Strength, Power, Speed, Hypertrophy and Strength Endurance requires a different approach.

With the Ketogenic Diet, a different training approached is required, as well. Let look at..

Two of The Three Energy Systems

1) Phosphagen Energy System

ATP is utilized for the system; primarily short burst, high intense movements for Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

ATP is used, not glucose (carbohydrates) nor ketones (body fat).

Thus, individual who are on a Standard American Diet or Ketogenic Diet will preform equally as well.

ATP is pretty much depleted in 15 second and complete gone in 30 seconds

2) Glycolytic Energy System

Activities ore sports that are moderately intense an last from over 30 second to around 2 minutes require glucose (carbohydrates.

Glycolytic sports are activities appear to need to consume more carbohydrates/glucose.

With that said, let's look at...

A low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet combined with six weeks of crossfit training improves body composition and performance

Rachael Gregory's research determined that once athletes were Keto Adapted, they performed just as well as in the Glycolytic Energy System. However, I am not quite sold on it.

Now let see how you can "Game The System" with one type of Strength Training Method...

Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Training

a) Traditional Bodybuilding

It fall more if the the Glycolytic Energy System with higher repetition and shorter rest periods.

b) Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training

This method keeps Hypertrophy Training in the Phosphagen Energy System

Cluster Set in which short rest periods between repetitions or cluster of repetitions (2 - 3 reps per set) of around 15 second are taken. This allows the restoration of Muscle ATP; which allow you to produce more force.

Clusters of let's say 12 Sets of 2 Repetition are performed with let say 15 seconds between each Cluster. That is 1 Cluster Set for a total of 24 Repetitions.

Research by Dr Jonathan Oliver determined this method ensure Speed and Power were maintained and developed, along with Maximum Strength while increasing muscle mass.

When Traditional Hypertrophy Training alone it increases muscle mass at the expense of Maximum Strength, Power and Speed; they drop like a rock.

Rest Periods Between Sets

1) Glucose restores Muscle ATP quickly. However, there is no data that indicates how quickly that occurs.

2) Ketones ironically produce more ATP, but don't restore Muscle ATP as quickly as Glucose; there no data on how much slower with vs glucose.

Thus, for individual on a Ketogenic Diet, one of the primary keys is that Rest Periods between Maximum Strength Training Sets and Cluster Set Hypertrophy need be long enough so that Muscle ATP Restoration occurs. That also applies to individual who on Standard American Diet.

The 3 Minute Rule

When performing Maximum Strength Training, rest periods between set need to be at least 3 minutes; regardless of the diet followed.

Three minutes usually allows complete Muscle ATP Restoration. That one of the reason that if a Powerlifter misses a lift and has to follow himself again, they are given three minutes before they need to do so.

Summary

1) Strength Training on the Ketogenic Diet require a different approach.

2) Training Repetition need to kept in the Phosphagen Energy System.

2) Rest Periods between Sets need to be long enough so that Muscle ATP is restored.

3) Research by Rachael Gregory indicates that once Keto Adapted, Ketogenic Diet athletes performed as well as those on the Standard American Diet. This method may work providing it is given enough time.

4) Your issue might be that you are Overreaching with your training which lead to Overtraining; which creates a variety of issues.
 
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every time I did keto it felt like I lost 20 iq points
High Protein, Low Carbohydrates, and Low To Moderate Fat

Something like that usually occurs due to someone being an a high protein (instead of moderate), low carbohydrate, low to moderate fat diet; which means an individual is still Glucose Dependent. They still using glucose rather than ketones to light up the brain. Unfortunately, since they are on low carbohydrates they don't have enough to get job done; they feel like they are in a fog.

when I quit I would feel like Superman. I could immediately lift more, move faster, and think better.

Increased Carbohydrate Intake

Individual following a high protein, low carbohydrate, low to moderate fat intake end of feeling and doing better if they do one of the two...

1) Dramatically increase carbohydrate intake.

2) Increase fat intake and make sure their protein is moderate with low carbohydrate intake.

Increased Performance

Carbohydrate Loading "Cell Voluminizes" the muscles increase strength; similar to what happens with many individual who take creatine.

Dehydration produces a decrease in performance.

The reverse is true with Superhydration of the muscles; performance increases.
 
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Something like that usually occurs due to someone being an a high protein (instead of moderate), low carbohydrate, low to moderate fat diet; which means an individual is still Glucose Dependent. They still using glucose rather than ketones to light up the brain. Unfortunately, since they are on low carbohydrates they don't have enough to get job done; they feel like they are in a fog.
That is what I was told, maybe I'm just metabolically inflexible or something of the like. But the example I'm thinking of I was keto for 3 weeks, verified using those pee sticks, and still suffering brain fog. It honestly feels like the type of brain fog I get if I eat trash food for a long time. Keto for me was lots of meat cheese eggs and broccoli. Not in optimal proportions for what my mother would deem "healthy".

Oddly enough I don't get the same level of brain fog while doing actual fasting. Granted I've never fasted for more than 48 hours.

As far as the carbs and performance, I think you are spot on. I recently read "The Renaissance diet 2.0" book and it was interesting to see that carbs also promote anabolic conditions in the body due to hormone responses as well. so when losing weight they help preserve muscle mass better than just protein and fat.
 
That is what I was told, ...

High Protein, Low Carbs and Not Enough Fat

Many individual believe this is a Keto Diet. It isn't. I initially didn't follow the right protocol. It's a common issue.

Did you count your macro's calculate your percentages?

I'm thinking of I was keto for 3 weeks, verified using those pee sticks, and still suffering brain fog.

Keto Adapted

1) You many not have been on the diet long enough to become completed Keto Adapted.

2) Pee Stick are inaccurate.

3) Brain Fog is usually caused by what I posted above...

1) Not consuming enough fat to be in ketosis or consuming too much protein which coverts protein into glucose; gluconeogenesis.

What that means is your remain Glucose Dependent rather than being Keto Adapted.

However, you are not getting enough glucose (carbohydrates) nor are you able to convert enough protein to glucose for energy for the brain or anything else.

On the Standard American Diet, the brain is a glucose hog.

"The brain lacks fuel stores and hence requires a continuous supply of glucose. It consumes about 120 g daily, ..."
Source:Each Organ Has a Unique Metabolic Profile - Biochemistry - NCBI Bookshelf.

If you are still Glucose Dependent and on a low carbohydrate diet and high protein diet, it is hard for he body to maintain muscle mass as well as covert protein to glucose; since you body is not using ketones effectively.

2) If your consuming high fat with low carbohydrates and moderate protein in the right percentages, you end up having more than enough ketones from your fat intake and body fat to produce energy for the brain and the rest of your body functions.

Research by Volek/Phinney determined that you still need some glucose to keep the brain running effectively. However, the amount of glucose drops down to around 20 gram a day with rest of the energy needed coming from ketones.

Oddly enough I don't get the same level of brain fog while doing actual fasting.

Intermittent Fasting

Fast of 12 hour or longer trigger the body use ketones; you are in ketosis. (Brad Pilon, Nutritionist)

It makes sense that during fasting, you don' get the "Same level of brain fog"; you are in ketosis, rather than being Glucose Dependent.
arbs also promote anabolic conditions in the body due to hormone responses

Carbohydrates and Insulin

Carbohydrates elevate Insulin.

Insulin is a "Globally Anabolic Hormone". That means it triggers an increase in muscle mass as well as body fat.

As Jay Robb (Nutritionist) stated, "Insulin is a Fat Maker, ..."

That is one of the reason Pro-Bodybuilder inject insulin during a PED Cycle.

That is why a High Carbohydrate Diet on a Bulking Cycle increase muscle mass as well as making your fatter.

When you consume some Insulin is elevated, even on a low carbohydrate diet. Part of Insulin's job is to transport nutrients.

when losing weight they help preserve muscle mass better than just protein and fat.

Research Does Not Support It

Research by Volek, Phinney, Wilson, Paoli, etc have demonstrated that a Ketogenic Diet is more effective at preserving muscle mass.

Research has demonstrated that a Fast of up to 72 hours utilized primarily body fat (ketones), while preserving muscle mass. The sweet spot for maximizing fat loss while maintain muscle mass appears to be around 16 - 24 hours.

Carbohydrate intake doesn't get any lower than not eating anything for 16, 24 or 48 hours.

To a certain extent, the Ketogenic Diet mimics fasting; eliciting some of the same effects.
 
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b) Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training

This method keeps Hypertrophy Training in the Phosphagen Energy System

Cluster Set in which short rest periods between repetitions or cluster of repetitions (2 - 3 reps per set) of around 15 second are taken. This allows the restoration of Muscle ATP; which allow you to produce more force.

Clusters of let's say 12 Sets of 2 Repetition are performed with let say 15 seconds between each Cluster. That is 1 Cluster Set for a total of 24 Repetitions.
hey man, do you have any resources on a well constructed workout program that utilizes this technique/principle? Thanks
 
do you have any resources on a well constructed workout program that utilizes this technique/principle?

Of Course I Do...:)

I collect and catalog training and diet information.

I have reference information on most of the information that I present on this forum.

Understanding The Training Concept

One of the keys to training or anything else is understanding the concepts of how it works. That allows you to write and design your own training program.

The best place to start is with the Oliver's original research...

INTRA-SET REST INTERVALS IN HYPERTROPHIC TRAINING: EFFECTS ON HYPERTROPHY, STRENGTH, POWER, AND MYOSIN HEAVY CHAIN COMPOSITION http://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bi...2-08-11469/OLIVER-DISSERTATION.pdf?sequence=2

This provide more in depth information on how it works.

Oliver's Video Presentation


This is Oliver's presentation on it.

Get Big Without Getting Slow: Cluster Training

This article does a good job of breaking it down.

Now let me add some...

Additional Information

One of the keys to Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training that it's imperative it that each repetition need to be preformed explosively; this innervates Fast Twitch IIa and "Super" Fast Twitch Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber. These Muscle Fiber are responsible for Maximum Strength, Power, Speed and Muscle Mass.

What I have found is the speed of the contraction makes a difference more so than using a heavier load and moving the weight slower.

Compound/Multi Joint Exercises

Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training needs to be employed with Compound/Multi Joint Exercises: Squats, Bench Press, Deadlift, Leg Press, etc.

Single Joint Movements

Traditional Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Sets with moderate to higher repetition need to be utilized for Single Joint Exercises: Curls, Triceps Push Downs, Leg Curls, Lateral Raises, etc.

Traditional Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Sets for Single Joint Exercises, as Oliver research recommends, is more effective. I found that out after experimenting with Cluster Set for Single Joint Exercises and then Traditional Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Set for Single Joint Exercises.
 
@kennycro@@aol.com lots of good info in this thread. I have personally found using low rep exercises with keto imperative, and things like q&d / strong endurance based stuff work best.

i also relate to the op, after being on keto for a lengthy time i have found it very difficult going back to high carb, it seems i lost the ability to handle carbs as well as i use to.
 
I have personally found using low rep exercises with keto imperative, and things like q&d / strong endurance based stuff work best.
Energy Systems

Training Phosphagen and Oxidative Energy Systems on the Ketogenic Diet appear to optimal.

Now the but...

A low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet combined with six weeks of crossfit training improves body composition and performance

Rachael Gregory's research indicates that Keto Adapted individual can perform just as well as those on a Standard High Carbohydrate American Diet.

Secondly, two smart individuals on this site that are use the Ketogenic Diet and train in the Glycolytic Energy System are Al Caimpa and Snowman. When I have a question in this area, I emailed them on it. Both are great resources and getting back with me. In other word, when they speak, I listen.

However, I can't quite buy into that. Yet, I cannot completely rule it out.

i have found it very difficult going back to high carb, it seems i lost the ability to handle carbs as well as i use to.

Wilson's Research

Wilson found that essentially to be true. His research found if you transitioned from a Ketogenic Diet to a Standard American Diet with too a high carbohydrate intake, there was a dramatic increase in body fat.

Wilson determined that a more effective method was for individuals to slowly introduce carbohydrates back into their diet; initially consuming approximately 100 gram a day of carbohydrates.

It take a little while for your body to adjust to the change in your diet.

Exercise Analogy

Thinks about it this way. Let's say you use have hard training session. Then you don't workout for 3 month.

After three months, do you start back with the same load and intensity as you did in your last hard training session?

Instead you gradually ease back into your training sessions.
 
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