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Old Forum What is the most 'antifragilizing' martial art?

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Vicente

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Dear Pavel,

My name is Vicente, I'm an amateur bodybuilder, and totally new (and ignorant) in the world of strength training. Currently, I'm doing research about what martial art would be the most practical for me.

In your fantastic interview with Tim Ferriss, I heard your comments about Nassim Taleb's books.

In one of his books, Taleb discusses the martial version of the ludic fallacy (gold medal fighters might be the most vulnerable in real life fights) that got me thinking about how fragilizing some martial might be.

What martial art(s) do you think could be the most 'antifragilizing' one(s)? Maybe Krav Maga?


Cheers,

Vicente
 
Vicente,

 

IMHO, its the art wherein you grow not only in terms of skill but in terms of character and spirit too...

 

Find which discipline fits you best
 
Not Pavel (obviously).
But before there was karate and taekwondo there was Grappling Arts. All predators grapple only the prey punch and kick.

I like Koulikovs point of view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9gK8UICSs8
 
Vicente,

I've been in karate 30 years now, and I have had my fair share of injuries along the way.  But they were back when I was younger and all that mattered to me was being tough.  Then I got older and my training has evolved to health & longevity.  My Sensei has a class in the mornings where the average age is 70+ of those people practicing.  When I'm back in town, I love being in that class as they're a great inspiration to me.  They're long past hard sparring, but they're miles ahead of most people their age.

Al
 
Rory Miller "Meditations on Violence"

I think this book was discussed on an earlier thread, perhaps last year.

Regarding predators, if you consider yourself a predator you have no business in a discussion of self defense.  Self defense is avoiding becoming prey not becoming a predator.

Grappling is useless against multiple opponents, tied up with one on the ground you are easy prey for a standing person to kick your head off [voe].
 
Mike-> Well, should have included a " ;) " to make my joke apperent...
You should not fight at all. Especially against multiple opponents... Or armed opponents.
IF we are discussing self defense then IMHO i think the best sport/activity is 800m running, you would never catch any of those guys.

Anyways if someone is really interested:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1107194525974467
(sometimes Joe Rogan is actually spot on)
 
good link Joel, I agree.  Most people haven't got a clue how to defend themselves.  Against a trained martial artist, the untrained are usually to ignorant to even know how out matched they are.  It's the same with well trained military and some rebel militants.  The bullies may think they're it!  But they're Not!
 
Good link, thanks.  I agree - not from experience but lack of it, as I would be one of the clueless ones Allan refers to.

The thing I didn't get from the link/video - it seems like he's encouraging jujitsu because you can tap-out.   Yet the strong theme of the video/this discussion is that in reality you can't (tap out - you'd be dead).    Might re-watch later.
 
Dear friends,

Thank you for your answers. I will definitely read "Meditations on Violence".

In my search of my martial art/discipline, I have this mental model:

I imagine that I confront a guy who is way taller, bigger, more muscular, stronger, and better than me in any conventional martial arts (let's say, a martial artist version of Hulk). How would I confront him?

Boxing? Not a chance.

Grappling in the ground? Even less...

Oriental choreographies, MMA show, high kicks and stuff like that? Not likely...

In that situation, I could only go to the groin, neck, eyes, etc. to have a chance of taking him down.

That's why, as far as I know, Krav Maga would be the most practical system.

Your thoughts?

Cheers,

Vicente

 

 
 
As someone who's done a fair bit of reading without taking up a martial art, seems to me like the most important thing would be practicing with resisting opponents of increasing quality. Thus the choice should be dictated in part by the quality of your local dojos & instructors.
 
Bottom line, if you don't know ground fighting a good grappler will kick your a#@, BAD, 90%+ of the time.

the converse is obviously true.

some people say grappling is no good against multiple opponents. Well neither is krav maga or any other foo foo martial art.

train mma, or some bjj, add some boxing or may Thai. You want to knife or gun fight that's a different question.

i wish people would stop kidding themselves, this question was answered long ago.

 
 
MCMAP.  The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program.  It is a type of MMA, without the "game" rules that the MMA taught for sport has.  Eyes, neck, groin...all primary targets.  It is also a weapons based system, so they emphasize the reason you hit someone is to create some time or space to get to a better weapon.  That is the only way to win some fights.

So join up and learn it.  I don't think it is taught at any civilian gyms.

A martial arts trained Hulk with malicious intent is clearly a lethal threat.  Learn the only real "American Martial Art"...gunfighting.

Mike, I think the "predator" mindset is great in some circumstances.  Even in self defense.  Bears mostly eat berries, but they sure behave like predators when you threaten their young or their territory.  I think a human parent is fully justified in aggressively and ruthlessly hunting down whatever criminal scum has entered their home and put their children's lives at risk.  Sure a retreat sounds great, but that isn't always an option.
 
To test for my third brown I had to go through 16 multi-person attack scenarios in real time with moderate contact (meaning my training partners weren't trying to kill me, but they weren't going easy either).  The style was a form of kung fu.  Most styles of kung fu are familial or regional, so mentioning the name isn't a big help.  Kung fu is something you learn slowly, but I really enjoyed my time practicing.  I stopped for personal reasons.
 
Matt->

It seems like he’s encouraging jujitsu because you can tap-out. Yet the strong theme of the video/this discussion is that in reality you can’t (tap out – you’d be dead). Might re-watch later.
Click to expand...
Would not be any good for you or your partner of you went to a martial art class and actually killed each other, however "real" that might sound.

You get a chance to grasp defeat (and possible death) multiple times in a training session. If you don't tap, you break a limb or pass out. If you tap you get a new chance to overcome your opponent. Everyday. (Of course thats true with other martial arts as well but if you are going close to 100% in Boxing you will end up with serious brain damage pretty soon)

Kids on the playgrounds are not even allowed to hurt themselfs anymore, they are not allowed to fight... they do not know how to handle physical or emotional pain.
So people grow up without any connection to violence or pain. They celebrate for nothing (drink on fridays anyone?) and by this want to get rewarded for things you are supposed to do correctly in the first place (like get a job, keep a job, do your job at your job).
In our "office lives" we humans can behave like real assholes because we don't have any real connection to the savagery that might unfold.

Maybe thats why the most humble and "real" persons I've ever met are high level marial artists.
 
Personally, I think that how you train is more important than what you train.

Within a particular style, the quality of instruction can vary hugely from one school to another. Some karate classes, for example, can be very good at preparing you to defend yourself and others are worthless. The difference is the instructor and how he/she runs the class.
 
I have done a few arts. The ones I learned the most from were the ones where you have active real sparring. Not just random drills but real sparring. Judo,Jujitsu,BJJ,Muay Thai,Kickboxing,Boxing,Knockdown Karate (Kyokushin/Enshin/Ashihara) ETC.

Compliant sparring is neat but it makes it to reliant on the partner.

Currently I am a Nidan in Enshin Karate and I enjoy it for the training.

So find an art and a teacher/Sensei you enjoy that has some real sparring.

 
 
Before you ask the question, what is the best for you, probably the best is to ask yourself - what is your goal with a martial art? Many people start martial arts for the self defense aspect, but many styles - even if they claim to have it - have very limited, or minimal efficiency on this field. The other goal I see a lot is fitness, and naturally parents take their kids to learn MA to learn also respect, besides gaining some confidence etc.

 

So, since this is not a life / death decision for you, pick something you like.
 
Hi SuperJoel,

I agree with what you’re saying (both points!) – and while I also agree with the video that tapping out is practically useful to allow you to learn, improve etc, I was wondering if he was also hinting that it could create a psychology that ultimately will fail the person.

I guess there is an analogy to training – a good way to get seriously strong is to compete.

Sorry getting off topic.

Vicente

“… I confront a guy who is way taller, bigger, more muscular, stronger, and better than me …” – I am not sure if it’s meant to be stated as such, but you are presenting a situation where you are attacking someone, not defending? While I don’t have any answers, I am curious if you are asking that or something else. I thought of Krav Maga once but never got the time.

Then, is that particular question really anti-fragilising or ? I think SuperJoel is commenting on the antifrag.
 
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