Bodyweight Which crawling style for fixing lower back issues (leopard v. bear)?

[watchnerd]

Sure. I noticed that allot of people who were trying to use the system, were often times not doing the basic work elsewhere. When I reference basic work I mean things like joint circling, basic strength training and even walking. Crawling and resets are not going to counter dangerous or ineffective training. Going too heavy too soon or just not properly building up to an exercise.

That's not to say I don't find value in rolling, crawling or resets, it's just that many people will use it as a fix all antidote instead of addressing the root cause which for many is improper strength training.

Not to dispute your point, but I think that phenomenon (people loading dysfunctional movement --> solution), is visible in other, semi-related modalities, too.

I've certainly run across a lot of high mileage people in Pilates classes, for instance -- and in fact, Pilates was invented as a pre-hab for dancers who kept injuring themselves.

One of the things I got from Pilates and yoga was a better sense of quality movement, fine motor (as opposed to gross motor) control, and pelvic / core control.

I did this *after* my first big injury in weightlifting and after learning my lesson and improving my movement quality, rebuilt all of my weightlifting back again from the ground up.

It took about 2 years.

I don't know much about OS, but I've hear similar stories -- I don't think it's the fault of OS, Pilates, or yoga that people learn lessons of sub- optimal strength training the hard way, but they do seem to be valuable tools for those who are willing to learn and rebuild better.

 

[Training for Life]

I bet a lot of people only start devoting real time at things like OS or Pilates AFTER they get injured or have nagging pains. It’s the story for me too.

 

[StrengthIsKind]

Not to dispute your point, but I think that phenomenon (people loading dysfunctional movement --> solution), is visible in other, semi-related modalities, too.

I've certainly run across a lot of high mileage people in Pilates classes, for instance -- and in fact, Pilates was invented as a pre-hab for dancers who kept injuring themselves.

One of the things I got from Pilates and yoga was a better sense of quality movement, fine motor (as opposed to gross motor) control, and pelvic / core control.

I did this *after* my first big injury in weightlifting and after learning my lesson and improving my movement quality, rebuilt all of my weightlifting back again from the ground up.

It took about 2 years.

I don't know much about OS, but I've hear similar stories -- I don't think it's the fault of OS, Pilates, or yoga that people learn lessons of sub- optimal strength training the hard way, but they do seem to be valuable tools for those who are willing to learn and rebuild better.

I can agree with this. It's when people will rotate from rehabilitation to old habits and back to rehabilitation again is what gets me. They will repair themselves with OS, feel great and then go back to the program or method that injured them in the first place. Thus starting the cycle over again having learned nothing.

 

[GaryT]

The most recent artcle in t-nation talks about “bear” crawling if interested. It’s from Dr Rusin. I’ve no personal experience or opinion.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Stealing from @Geoff Neupert : how often do you do deadbugs and how much volume?

I did them at the beginning of my recovery. I used them as a substitute of the modified curl-up form the McGill's Big 3. I wasn't very successful with them - I find them to work the superficial abs mostly. I will try to revisit them now and apply proper TVA engagement. Thank you for your suggestion!

PRI principles are what have helped me the most. Maybe you have tried this, but keep them in mind when you try your crawling, especially things like left and right hip shift, if they don't bother your back. Maybe you've also read about the zone of apposition in PRI, but re-establishing that should help with the diaphragm contracting properly, which is supposed to help with reflexive back stabilization.

Yes, now I am trying to apply PRI to virtually anything. In one podcast one of the specialists recommended taking 3 weeks off lifting and just do the techniques and some bodyweight training and check for difference, so I now I'm taking a shot.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I did them at the beginning of my recovery. I used them as a substitute of the modified curl-up form the McGill's Big 3. I wasn't very successful with them - I find them to work the superficial abs mostly. I will try to revisit them now and apply proper TVA engagement. Thank you for your suggestion!


Yes, now I am trying to apply PRI to virtually anything. In one podcast one of the specialists recommended taking 3 weeks off lifting and just do the techniques and some bodyweight training and check for difference, so I now I'm taking a shot.

Try working up to 15/15 2-3 sets initially and do them slower than usual

Here's my n=1 discovery

We all need to strengthen the gait pattern.. but we usually benefit more from simpler gait patterns like deadbugs or from the foundation of the gait pattern which is rolling

 

[Gary W]

Ive been doing Leopard and bear crawling for 10mins as a warm up the last couple of months, got better at both but ive not noticed any carry over to anything else.

Ive ditched them now

 

[John Bye]

Ive been doing Leopard and bear crawling for 10mins as a warm up the last couple of months, got better at both but ive not noticed any carry over to anything else.

Ive ditched them now

This is similar to what I’ve experienced in the past. Another thing I’ve noticed is that most benefits are almost instant (and sometimes significant) but fail to be maintained, even with consistent practice- so returns seem to diminish, even vanish, rather than compound. I’m not sure why this is, but wonder if it’s “neurological” - similar to how heavy singles and doubles seem to result in rapid increases in strength supported which are somewhat unstable??

 

[bluejeff]

@Gary Wilson and @John Bye this is not me trying to convince you to do anything; it's just my thoughts on your type of experience.

I haven't noticed "carryover" with the 5-10 minutes of crawling a day I do, except for maybe a little from lizard crawls, which stress the pressing muscles more in my experience.

Whenever I see stories of carryover from crawling, the person who did it almost always did a LOT of crawling, and often times it was loaded crawling, at that. By a lot, I mean like back and forth across a football field a number times, 30-minute sessions (with breaks I think) or doing mile-long crawling challenges. That was often with loads too: dragging chains or some other kind of weight.

I haven't tried that yet, because I am too interested in calisthenics and barbells at the moment, and long, intense, crawling sessions are not something I could really add at this point in time. My experience has been that shorter sessions help the nervous system to coordinate better, but don't contribute a ton to long term adaptations unless done pretty much daily.

 

[guardian7]

Here is the rationale against bear crawls from OS. How to Crawl | Original Strength

"EXCEPT bear crawls. We don't teach bear crawls. We teach crawls that build your reflexive strength, crawls that make you stronger and more resilient."

Reflexive strength example:

A Quick Reflexive Strength Self-Test | Original Strength

originalstrength.net

 

[Opiaswing]

> Stretch hip flexors and quads consistently.

> Strengthen core - hardstyle plank is my recommendation, increasing leverage over time (distance between elbows and feet).

> Once your core is strong enough to work lower abs without your back arching and hip flexors taking over, do so.

> Stomach vaccuums.



These fixed my APT.

 

[TedM]

We all need to strengthen the gait pattern.. but we usually benefit more from simpler gait patterns like deadbugs or from the foundation of the gait pattern which is rolling

To be honest, I've totally ignored the rolling aspect of the OS movements I do. (partially due to lack of convenient space). I feel great benefit from rocking and the deadbugs (i do 'em cheesy, with bent knees, although). also crawling and various carrying movements.

But, what have you found so helpful with rolling and what are / have you done with them?

 

[watchnerd]

> Stretch hip flexors and quads consistently.

> Strengthen core - hardstyle plank is my recommendation, increasing leverage over time (distance between elbows and feet).

> Once your core is strong enough to work lower abs without your back arching and hip flexors taking over, do so.

> Stomach vaccuums.



These fixed my APT.

I very much agree with this directionally.

Although I think it's also good to vary the lower ab exercises from time to time to keep progressing.

The challenge I see with animal crawling is that I just don't think it ticks as may boxes as what you described.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

To be honest, I've totally ignored the rolling aspect of the OS movements I do. (partially due to lack of convenient space). I feel great benefit from rocking and the deadbugs (i do 'em cheesy, with bent knees, although). also crawling and various carrying movements.

But, what have you found so helpful with rolling and what are / have you done with them?

In my case, the rolling strengthened the crawling and getups.. so a better crawl which is usually the "fancy reset" means you get better benefits from it..

Remember that each reset can feed into each other

 

[Gypsyplumber]

Sure. I noticed that allot of people who were trying to use the system, were often times not doing the basic work elsewhere. When I reference basic work I mean things like joint circling, basic strength training and even walking. Crawling and resets are not going to counter dangerous or ineffective training. Going too heavy too soon or just not properly building up to an exercise.

That's not to say I don't find value in rolling, crawling or resets, it's just that many people will use it as a fix all antidote instead of addressing the root cause which for many is improper strength training.

I do think things like OS and even P3 can be very effective but also agree that some people create their issues and try to use recovery programs as a antidote. You should do both, train safe and do these programs.

I just saw a video on Instagram of a “kettlebell coach” who was shredded as can be and very advanced. He was doing a complex that involved a 1/2 get up, over head squats, and windmills. Now he was doing them fine but he had a split screen of a client doing this complex “working in mobility” and he had to use a stick to even half way help perform the movements, his get ups were all done with the weight directly over his face in a broken wrist position, his windmills looked like his back was a banana, and he has this guy doing overhead squats when he likely needed to be learning goblet squats. This whole video scared the s*** out of me lol. And the trainer was praising these efforts. The effort is there but people need to start from square 1. I’m 3 years into kettlebell training and I still don’t do overhead squats….becuase they are hard and require a lot of core strength

 

[Ege]

There are lots of expert answers here. I think Steve Mcgill big three exercises are good, especially the modified curl taught me how I should feel during deadbugs etc not to hurt but do good for my back.

My experience w Bearwalks (hips up) in a slow and controlled manner is very positive as well as other types of ground work.

I can easily feel if I have a stabilization issue with a part of my body when I do any ground work similar to OS resets. And repeating that move in a slow and controlled manner seems to be fixing many things.

The most important lesson for me from OS and similar school of thoughts was/is; to be humble.

 

[TedM]

The most important lesson for me from OS and similar school of thoughts was/is; to be humble.

And patient

 

[GovernorSilver]

I'm more familiar with the GMB style of bear walk, which emphasizes pushing the butt as high as possible:

Bear Walks For Full Body Strength And Mobility GMB Fitness

Bear crawls help you build shoulder + upper back strength while improving your hamstring and calf flexibility. Learn proper form and advanced variations.

gmb.io

It can be used as part of a strength training routine for trainees who are not strong enough to do a pushup or pike pushup. Or it can be used for on an active recovery day. Depends on your goals. GMB also has variations on their bear walk for use in working towards particular goals.

I found it ok for my lower back, as long as I didn't try to make a MetCon out of it or something. Gives the hamstrings a decent stretch.

 

[watchnerd]

I'm more familiar with the GMB style of bear walk, which emphasizes pushing the butt as high as possible:

Bear Walks For Full Body Strength And Mobility GMB Fitness

Bear crawls help you build shoulder + upper back strength while improving your hamstring and calf flexibility. Learn proper form and advanced variations.

gmb.io

It can be used as part of a strength training routine for trainees who are not strong enough to do a pushup or pike pushup. Or it can be used for on an active recovery day. Depends on your goals. GMB also has variations on their bear walk for use in working towards particular goals.

I found it ok for my lower back, as long as I didn't try to make a MetCon out of it or something. Gives the hamstrings a decent stretch.

I don't know about the idea of doing them if you're not strong enough to do a push up.

We used to do them in football, and everyone could certainly do a push up.

 

[GovernorSilver]

I don't know about the idea of doing them if you're not strong enough to do a push up.

We used to do them in football, and everyone could certainly do a push up.

GMB Elements, of which their Bear Walk, not to be confused with the "bear crawl" discussed in most of this thread, was not really designed to be a strength training program for guys already strong enough to get onto an American football team. It's intended audience is mostly people just getting started on their fitness journey, or coming back to a fitness journey after a very long layoff.

I misspoke a bit in that they like the Bear for working up to pike pushups, but haven't actually said anything about regular pushups.

Anyway, I was just sharing my experience in GMB-style Bear and how it felt for my lower back.

GMB has another program for recovery/eliminating soreness and it doesn't use any Bear at all. But I don't want to turn this into a GMB ad.