Old Forum Why do ETK instead of Wendler 5/3/1?
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HerrMannelig
Level 3 Valued Member
I am not familiar with the specifics of ETK, but the strength training principles are the same for everybody. SFG stuff is not pulled out of thin air and you can find the basis for everything in other places, sometimes, it is common knowledge in those areas.
The program one follows depends on one's interests and goals. If one wants to learn to use kettlebells specifically, then obviously a kettlebell specific program would be best. But if one wants to be stronger without a particular focus on kettlebell specific skill, then another program would be better.
StrongLifts, 5/3/1, Power to the People, and Mark Rippetoe's strength training advice are all very similar, because the end is the similar. Get stronger. What varies is usually quite minor.
The program one follows depends on one's interests and goals. If one wants to learn to use kettlebells specifically, then obviously a kettlebell specific program would be best. But if one wants to be stronger without a particular focus on kettlebell specific skill, then another program would be better.
StrongLifts, 5/3/1, Power to the People, and Mark Rippetoe's strength training advice are all very similar, because the end is the similar. Get stronger. What varies is usually quite minor.
Siemen
Level 3 Valued Member
5/3/1 requires a big ego check. The weights move up very slowly. You have to handle with that.
Personally, I found I only need the deadlift and the overhead press. I have no need to squat or to bench. Makes me able to concentrate more on those two lifts.
ETK is lasting strength, with that much volume. It's really the working class answer. You don't have to go to a gym to do this.
Personally, I found I only need the deadlift and the overhead press. I have no need to squat or to bench. Makes me able to concentrate more on those two lifts.
ETK is lasting strength, with that much volume. It's really the working class answer. You don't have to go to a gym to do this.
Jeff
Level 5 Valued Member
I had been thinking about this question for a while and decided to make a thread about it when I saw that a thread had just been created for kettlebell strong or barbell strong. There might be some overlap, but I decided to proceed with the thread anyway.
i could have just as well said Starting Strength instead of 531, but the idea is the same.
i have been on basic barbell programs before, but nothing as well thought out as SS or 531. However, it seems to me that a person could gain both size and strength more effectively with a good barbell program than with ETK. Back when I did the barbell stuff, I was stronger and more bulked up, but stiffer.
It seems like joint health, mobility, and conditioning would be better with ETK. But, with the Strongfirst mentality in mind, maybe SS or 531 would be a better starting point, with light getups and swings thrown in for mobility and conditioning.
The PM is about as time efficient as it gets. I am just now getting back into after a bit of a layoff. I like the shoulder health aspect of it. I wonder if I will be able to eventually get some size from it if I work up to heavier kettlebells and eventually compress the sets. Anybody here bulk up on PM? Let's be honest here, what man doesn't want a little more muscle mass?
i could have just as well said Starting Strength instead of 531, but the idea is the same.
i have been on basic barbell programs before, but nothing as well thought out as SS or 531. However, it seems to me that a person could gain both size and strength more effectively with a good barbell program than with ETK. Back when I did the barbell stuff, I was stronger and more bulked up, but stiffer.
It seems like joint health, mobility, and conditioning would be better with ETK. But, with the Strongfirst mentality in mind, maybe SS or 531 would be a better starting point, with light getups and swings thrown in for mobility and conditioning.
The PM is about as time efficient as it gets. I am just now getting back into after a bit of a layoff. I like the shoulder health aspect of it. I wonder if I will be able to eventually get some size from it if I work up to heavier kettlebells and eventually compress the sets. Anybody here bulk up on PM? Let's be honest here, what man doesn't want a little more muscle mass?
Kai Johnson
Level 2 Valued Member
ETK and 531 are apples and oranges. Both great programs and there are more than one road to becoming strong.
What are your goals and what tools are available to you? If you have access to barbells they are a great way to develop strength and if you got stiffer before its because you neglected to keep yourself mobile and not the fault of the additional strength.
If you have access to kettlebells they will give you a great blend of strength and conditioning. Moving beyond ETK into double bells will certainly make you grow and get very strong.
PM is.....Program Minimum....the word minimum is key here. It is minimal and can be added to or used as a transition into something more strenuous, or just as a short and sweet routine for someone that doesn't want to spend too much time training. For that matter PTTP is very minimal as well which is one reason it works so well cycled with PM for someone with limited time to train.
I would pick a path and follow it...just bury your head and stick to it for years.
What are your goals and what tools are available to you? If you have access to barbells they are a great way to develop strength and if you got stiffer before its because you neglected to keep yourself mobile and not the fault of the additional strength.
If you have access to kettlebells they will give you a great blend of strength and conditioning. Moving beyond ETK into double bells will certainly make you grow and get very strong.
PM is.....Program Minimum....the word minimum is key here. It is minimal and can be added to or used as a transition into something more strenuous, or just as a short and sweet routine for someone that doesn't want to spend too much time training. For that matter PTTP is very minimal as well which is one reason it works so well cycled with PM for someone with limited time to train.
I would pick a path and follow it...just bury your head and stick to it for years.
Jeff
Level 5 Valued Member
I wasn't wanting to get into what my goals are as much as I wanted to have a discussion about what the relative merits are of the different kinds of programs. I understand that it is wise to pick a program and stick with, but I think a good understanding of the options is both interesting and helpful.
Kai Johnson
Level 2 Valued Member
Well, they are very different programs. Both valid for what they are but not really comparable.
My point is that discussing things like this is not actually that helpful. Doing is what is helpful. Your questions change as you learn by doing.
But, that's just like my opinion man....have at it.
My point is that discussing things like this is not actually that helpful. Doing is what is helpful. Your questions change as you learn by doing.
But, that's just like my opinion man....have at it.
HerrMannelig
Level 3 Valued Member
The real working class answer is the floor and maybe a bar, the same solution used by the special forces (including for the Soviets), warriors throughout the ages, athletes throughout the ages, and costs absolutely nothing.
The next step is weights, the heaviest cheapest weights one can get, and that is now a barbell set and a floor.
With kettlebells, you almost need professional instruction, and that, and the cost of kettlebells...well, it is a few steps above working class.
Kai Johnson
Level 2 Valued Member
If you say so.
Next up…fully geared Westside or Naked Warrior? Which program should I pick?
I’m poking fun forgive me, but don’t spend too much time on this. Pick the program that you will actually stick to and do it. You wont waste any time if you are concerned about that because both are great programs. HerrManneliq’s point about instruction is a good one though some attention to form is good with any type of exercise.
There is an old article that Adam Glass put up on DD a long time ago that addresses this stuff in an admittedly brusque manner. It’s called “My Thoughts on Strength” if you are interested. I am hesitant to put up a link as I’m not sure if linking to that site is looked down upon here. I highly recommend reading it though as it pertains.
Next up…fully geared Westside or Naked Warrior? Which program should I pick?
I’m poking fun forgive me, but don’t spend too much time on this. Pick the program that you will actually stick to and do it. You wont waste any time if you are concerned about that because both are great programs. HerrManneliq’s point about instruction is a good one though some attention to form is good with any type of exercise.
There is an old article that Adam Glass put up on DD a long time ago that addresses this stuff in an admittedly brusque manner. It’s called “My Thoughts on Strength” if you are interested. I am hesitant to put up a link as I’m not sure if linking to that site is looked down upon here. I highly recommend reading it though as it pertains.
Steve B.
Level 5 Valued Member
ETK is a kettlebell program designed to get stronger and better at two great kettlebell basics the swing and the get up (one ballistic,one grind) with other KB movements added once completing the basic program.A good basic program for KB endurance and strength.
5-3-1 is a barbell program using percentages on basic lifts.You use 90% of your max as a starting point for the program.It is a method where one has to be patient and use the program over a long period of time to see strength results.The last set on every phase(5's,3's,or 1's) is an all out rep set as many as you can do.This is the part i don't necessarily agree with.With many reps comes a break down in form possibly leading to injury.That said this program works if you can patient following it and not modifying it.You can do some assistance work with it but mostly it's focusing on the main lifts,squat,bench,deadlift and press.
You must decide which discipline you want to train and become stronger at.
5-3-1 is a barbell program using percentages on basic lifts.You use 90% of your max as a starting point for the program.It is a method where one has to be patient and use the program over a long period of time to see strength results.The last set on every phase(5's,3's,or 1's) is an all out rep set as many as you can do.This is the part i don't necessarily agree with.With many reps comes a break down in form possibly leading to injury.That said this program works if you can patient following it and not modifying it.You can do some assistance work with it but mostly it's focusing on the main lifts,squat,bench,deadlift and press.
You must decide which discipline you want to train and become stronger at.
Derrick
Level 1 Valued Member
Every time I come back to KBs, I think to myself, "Why did I ever go away?" I just really enjoy working out with them. I dislike gyms and enjoy working out at home. I do have a barbell set, but I still prefer my KBs.
I was just out of town for 3 days and took my bells with me. Every day I'd take them down to a nearby park and get my ETK workout in without missing a beat.
I was just out of town for 3 days and took my bells with me. Every day I'd take them down to a nearby park and get my ETK workout in without missing a beat.
RussellPeele
Level 3 Valued Member
from 5/3/1 Q&A:
Q: Can I do my assistance work with kettlebells?
A: This is a great idea.
whee!!!!!! you can have both.
Q: Can I do my assistance work with kettlebells?
A: This is a great idea.
whee!!!!!! you can have both.
GalifreyTourist
Level 3 Valued Member
ETK is a kettlebell program designed to get stronger and better at two great kettlebell basics the swing and the get up (one ballistic,one grind) with other KB movements added once completing the basic program.A good basic program for KB endurance and strength.
Funny I thought that the purpose of ETK was to eventually press the 1/2 bodyweight kettlebell for 1rep and to do 200 snatches in 10 minutes with the 24kg bell. Not to work the get up and the swing for ever, I thought that was just introductory so that you could groove the swing and prepare the shoulders for snatches.
Funny I thought that the purpose of ETK was to eventually press the 1/2 bodyweight kettlebell for 1rep and to do 200 snatches in 10 minutes with the 24kg bell. Not to work the get up and the swing for ever, I thought that was just introductory so that you could groove the swing and prepare the shoulders for snatches.
GalifreyTourist
Level 3 Valued Member
I all ways thought that ETK was the cheap option, for the price of a barbell set you can have three cast Iron kettle bells (16,20,24) all you need after that is a place to do pull ups from and you are in business.
For 5/3/1 you need at least 300lbs of weight, a bench and a power rack, total cost around £300-£400. Also you need somewhere to store your bench, rack and weights, three kettle bells take up hardly any space.
Also you should take into account that we working class love to fight, what's better for conditioning for fighting that a program of kettle bells and bodyweight.
For 5/3/1 you need at least 300lbs of weight, a bench and a power rack, total cost around £300-£400. Also you need somewhere to store your bench, rack and weights, three kettle bells take up hardly any space.
Also you should take into account that we working class love to fight, what's better for conditioning for fighting that a program of kettle bells and bodyweight.
GalifreyTourist
Level 3 Valued Member
"Would it be safe to say that the barbell program would result in greater size and strength than ETK?"
Yes barbells are best for putting on size and strength quickly, But at a cost to your joints. Look at how many recreational Power lifters and Body builders who have bad backs and shoulders. You can stave off these maladies by adding in lots of mobility work like Kai Johnson says. Also following a sensible progression will help.
Or you could use kettle bells. If you ask around you will find people who have gained lots of muscle when they started Return of the Kettlebell or Kettlebell Muscle. They also lost fat and improved their Vo2 Max through Kettlebells.
Also don't forget the What the hell effect from using double bells. If you read ETK Pavel talks about advanced greiviks who improved their dead lift and who ran a marathons after using ONLY Kettlebells in their training.
The thing is it takes a long time to build up to the 1/2 bodyweight press and the SSST but when you do you may be healthier and fitter than if you just used barbells. Why take the risk of a debilitating shoulder or back injury under the bar when you have a tool that will get results without the injury.
Yes barbells are best for putting on size and strength quickly, But at a cost to your joints. Look at how many recreational Power lifters and Body builders who have bad backs and shoulders. You can stave off these maladies by adding in lots of mobility work like Kai Johnson says. Also following a sensible progression will help.
Or you could use kettle bells. If you ask around you will find people who have gained lots of muscle when they started Return of the Kettlebell or Kettlebell Muscle. They also lost fat and improved their Vo2 Max through Kettlebells.
Also don't forget the What the hell effect from using double bells. If you read ETK Pavel talks about advanced greiviks who improved their dead lift and who ran a marathons after using ONLY Kettlebells in their training.
The thing is it takes a long time to build up to the 1/2 bodyweight press and the SSST but when you do you may be healthier and fitter than if you just used barbells. Why take the risk of a debilitating shoulder or back injury under the bar when you have a tool that will get results without the injury.
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