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Kettlebell Why KB swings are good for our back?

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Sergio

Sergio

Level 5 Valued Member
Posting here because this is where majority of the traffic is.

Long story short, I have been diagnosed by a orthopedic surgeon with mild disc bulge in the L4/L5 and L5/S1 region and a minor tear in the wall of one of those disc.

His theory is that the tear came about from excessive bending over. I immideatly think of my KB swing practice and how that may contribute to my current state. I dont want to believe that swings has caused or contributed to this injury. I have always felt healthy and strong during my S&S practices.

His suggestion going forward is to minimize any bending over movements to allow the disc to heal. Okay, that makes sense, give it some rest.

Where I get confused is this, SF and specifcally Pavel make the claim that swings is good for your back. I can't quote the man but he says something to that effect in his writings and videos.

Prior to my injury (non kettlebell training related) I would whole heartedly agree that swings are good for the back. But now that I am recovering from this injury I am cautious to return to moderate/heavy KB training.

Can any of you go into detail on how swings is good for our back? What comes to mind is the stabilizing effect it has on our lower back during swings. But what else can you guys expand on?
 
Sergio said:
Posting here because this is where majority of the traffic is.

Long story short, I have been diagnosed by a orthopedic surgeon with mild disc bulge in the L4/L5 and L5/S1 region and a minor tear in the wall of one of those disc.

His theory is that the tear came about from excessive bending over. I immideatly think of my KB swing practice and how that may contribute to my current state. I dont want to believe that swings has caused or contributed to this injury. I have always felt healthy and strong during my S&S practices.

His suggestion going forward is to minimize any bending over movements to allow the disc to heal. Okay, that makes sense, give it some rest.

Where I get confused is this, SF and specifcally Pavel make the claim that swings is good for your back. I can't quote the man but he says something to that effect in his writings and videos.

Prior to my injury (non kettlebell training related) I would whole heartedly agree that swings are good for the back. But now that I am recovering from this injury I am cautious to return to moderate/heavy KB training.

Can any of you go into detail on how swings is good for our back? What comes to mind is the stabilizing effect it has on our lower back during swings. But what else can you guys expand on?
Click to expand...
When done correctly, there should be no spinal movement at all. The hip hinge builds the glutes, which help support the spine via their attachment to the thoracolumbar fasica. I would follow your surgeon's advice and limit loading to the area in the short term however.
 
Sergio, I can't offer a lot in terms of the science behind it. I can offer anecdotal evidence though. I've got a similar lumbar injury history - several herniations, some significant, culminating in surgery on L4/5 in June of 2016. When I started training with kettlebells a little over a year ago, I had heard about their restorative value to the lower back but found it hard to believe. For a while, I found that my back had a very low tolerance for KB swing volume - more than a couple hundred in a week and I was hurting. But I very slowly increased volume and weight, and at some point something magic happened. What once hurt my back, suddenly seemed to make it feel better.

Fast forward to today, and my lower back is as resilient and healthy as it's been in many years. And I was able to progress to a point where I'm 1-arm swinging a 40kg bell comfortably, and was able to make it through the SFG weekend recently with very little discomfort.

Again, take my words with a grain of salt. But I credit KB training with my newfound (and relative) lumbar health.
 
I’d listen to the podcast(s?) with Prof. McGill (it depends!) as a starting point.
One thing I’ll say - backs and back pain are very poorly understood by clinicians (I am one, hopefully more aware than most of my own ignorance) and in general - scan findings correlate poorly with symptoms and I’d take any explanations of causality with a large pinch of salt. Many people with perfectly healthy backs have disc problems on scan. Many people with very unhealthy backs have no problems.
 
@kb4mk Thanks for sharing your experience. It is very reassuring to hear a story like yours. I've been unable to train due to this injury for 3.5 months now.
 
@ohnbye I am familiar with Prof. McGill and have read his book "back mechanic". It has helped with understanding my issue. It makes me worry how long the recovery process is, i've had this constant "nagging" pain in my lumbar region for 3.5 months now. McGill does mention that it may take up to a year for a disc to heal up. My kettlebells are gonna get dusty lol
 
@Sergio
I feel compelled to throw in my anecdotal experience with lower back and kettlebell swings. After years and years of bending, stooping, kneeling etc. doing construction work to support my family my lower back was pretty well fried, then I started doing S&S and turned my back situation around to being absolutely resilient.

These days if I feel the need I hit 2hsw with a moderate to heavy weight and it 'fixes' my back. I haven't been to see my kinesiologist for several months.. I just don't have problems anymore..

Are you doing high rep abdominal work (situp, crunches etc.) at all?
 
Sergio like Fractal said when done correctly there should be no spinal movement at all. Most back pain from swings can be attributed to poor technique. Some of the problems I see with many that are self taught (myself included) are squatting instead of hinging, rounding the back, hyperextending the back at the top, not packing the shoulders and getting the weight too far forward, kb too low at the bottom, and not keeping abs tight (breathing behind the shield).

Any one of those things can lead to back problems and like me several in combination screwed me up when I was first learning. The swing seems so simple but I would encourage anyone to get checked by a certified instructor. Back problems can be very debilitating so I would do as your doctor says and take as much time as you need to heal. Wishing you the best and a quick recovery.
 
Healing back pain By John Sarno. reviews are great. I heard about if on the Joe rogan podcast. It did help me. But caveat emptor, its not you typical back pain cure book.
 
The swings will buildup your back. But not right now, right now they would wreck your back. The back muscles are stabilizer muscles, not prime movers, in the kettlebell swing. The shear forces, during the swing, can be too much for a flexion intolerant back.

I would focus on healing and building strength via simple movements, prior to Ballistic movements, especially if you are flexion intolerant. I still focus on my spinal hygiene, walk a lot, and do the McGill Big 3. But later, after you have healed some, consider putting an empty bar on your back and do low bar box squats to a very high box (assuming you can do this pain free). Keep doing it and over time slowly lower the box to below parallel. Then throw away the box. Over time, slowly add weight. After 1 year when you are squatting 2+ bodyweight, your lower back will be strong. Then your body will be ready to handle ballistics. You will know how to generate tension, stabilize, and be resistant to shear forces.

You could do deadlifts instead of the squat. However, my experience is that I could progress more squatting (low bar) with a flexion intolerant back. Deadlifts have a larger moment arm.

This was my methodology. I do swings and snatches now. My back is now very strong.
 
@Sergio, the devil is in the dose. If your technique is solid for a deadlift or a swing, you'll be fine. But if you get a little fatigued and keep going, or become distracted and don't brace properly, then the weight becomes heavier than you can handle and you can get hurt.

I look at my various injuries and pains as blessings - they make me more aware than most people of when my form is less than satisfactory.

I strongly recommend you read "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie. Mine was give to me by my doctor. It will go a long way towards explaining to you what may have caused your back injury. In my opinion, unless we're talking about something catastrophic like an accident, most lower back injuries don't have a single, simple cause.

To continue what Brett said, I only began deadlifting with my doctor's blessing.

I have found I'm more able to maintain strict form in a deadlift, which is slow and controlled, than I am in a swing. Moving quickly, even with a much lighter weight, is nonetheless something that requires a level of skill that is in many ways higher than moving slowly, even when moving slowly involves more weight.

I hope this is helpful. My story has been told many times here, including in an article on this site from late 2012 or early 2013.

-S-
 
william bad butt said:
The swings will buildup your back. But not right now, right now they would wreck your back. The back muscles are stabilizer muscles, not prime movers, in the kettlebell swing. The shear forces, during the swing, can be too much for a flexion intolerant back.

I would focus on healing and building strength via simple movements, prior to Ballistic movements, especially if you are flexion intolerant. I still focus on my spinal hygiene, walk a lot, and do the McGill Big 3. But later, after you have healed some, consider putting an empty bar on your back and do low bar box squats to a very high box (assuming you can do this pain free). Keep doing it and over time slowly lower the box to below parallel. Then throw away the box. Over time, slowly add weight. After 1 year when you are squatting 2+ bodyweight, your lower back will be strong. Then your body will be ready to handle ballistics. You will know how to generate tension, stabilize, and be resistant to shear forces.

You could do deadlifts instead of the squat. However, my experience is that I could progress more squatting (low bar) with a flexion intolerant back. Deadlifts have a larger moment arm.

This was my methodology. I do swings and snatches now. My back is now very strong.
Click to expand...

@william bad butt I have been doing something similar to this but with the assitance of gym rings. The bar would be a good way to add some resistance. Thanks for the ideas
 
Brett Jones said:
Sergio
Are you working with a Physical Therapist or healthcare provider for your back rehab?
Click to expand...

@Brett Jones Not yet, I barely got my diagnosis from the ortho yesterday, 11/21/19. Do you think PT would be more effective than following a plan like McGill's big 3? My orthopedist did mention that I needed to strengthen my core and lower back muscles, all of which are targeted by the "big 3".
 
Steve Freides said:
@Sergio, the devil is in the dose. If your technique is solid for a deadlift or a swing, you'll be fine. But if you get a little fatigued and keep going, or become distracted and don't brace properly, then the weight becomes heavier than you can handle and you can get hurt.

I look at my various injuries and pains as blessings - they make me more aware than most people of when my form is less than satisfactory.

I strongly recommend you read "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie. Mine was give to me by my doctor. It will go a long way towards explaining to you what may have caused your back injury. In my opinion, unless we're talking about something catastrophic like an accident, most lower back injuries don't have a single, simple cause.

To continue what Brett said, I only began deadlifting with my doctor's blessing.

I have found I'm more able to maintain strict form in a deadlift, which is slow and controlled, than I am in a swing. Moving quickly, even with a much lighter weight, is nonetheless something that requires a level of skill that is in many ways higher than moving slowly, even when moving slowly involves more weight.

I hope this is helpful. My story has been told many times here, including in an article on this site from late 2012 or early 2013.

-S-
Click to expand...

@Steve Freides I will check out that book. It may be too soon to consider this injury a blessing, but it has made me more aware thats for sure. Thank you.
 
Sergio
Working with a good PT for a movement evaluation and targeting an individualized approach can save you a lot of time and get you on the right path sooner.
You want a Physical Therapist with an SFMA background and one that works with athletes etc...
 
@Sergio, +1 to what Brett said. After my injury, my orthopedist gave me a prescription for PT which I did use. In my particular case, given that I had read the McKenzie book, the PT sent me home to continue on my own in fewer than the number of sessions I'd been given, and I was diligent in my rehab work. My injury was pretty severe, and I was told to do the main McKenzie exercise, which is sort of like a passive version of a yoga "cobra" stretch," for 1 set of 10 reps, every hour as long as I was awake. That meant about 16 sets every day, a real GTG approach, and I didn't miss any. My triceps got a lot stronger. :)

-S-
 
Sergio said:
Posting here because this is where majority of the traffic is.

Long story short, I have been diagnosed by a orthopedic surgeon with mild disc bulge in the L4/L5 and L5/S1 region and a minor tear in the wall of one of those disc.

His theory is that the tear came about from excessive bending over. I immideatly think of my KB swing practice and how that may contribute to my current state. I dont want to believe that swings has caused or contributed to this injury. I have always felt healthy and strong during my S&S practices.

His suggestion going forward is to minimize any bending over movements to allow the disc to heal. Okay, that makes sense, give it some rest.

Where I get confused is this, SF and specifcally Pavel make the claim that swings is good for your back. I can't quote the man but he says something to that effect in his writings and videos.

Prior to my injury (non kettlebell training related) I would whole heartedly agree that swings are good for the back. But now that I am recovering from this injury I am cautious to return to moderate/heavy KB training.

Can any of you go into detail on how swings is good for our back? What comes to mind is the stabilizing effect it has on our lower back during swings. But what else can you guys expand on?
Click to expand...

As others have said. Follow medical advice.

A common mistake doing swings that could hurt your back is hyperextending. I used to do it.


I actually think that people should not do kettlebells swings without instruction. I found my error from taking the Strongfirst KB course. It is a fantastic movement but really hard to get right among the general population. I even flagged down a trainer to help a woman with her swing in a commercial gym. I felt I had to intervene because she was hyperextending squat swinging leaning forward AND back if you can imagine.
 
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