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Kettlebell GS and body type

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What also helps the lean back (I don't think I rock back like @Physical Culture recommends because my technique is not that good) are Olympic weightlifting. The slight heel makes this easier. Purchasing OL shoes involves somewhat of a commitment and "somewhat" of an investment. Adidas used to be the only supplier of OL shoes in the US and you had to plunk down $200, but these days there are many cheaper brands. OL shoes have a nice hard sole so no problem there, but if you've been training in minimalist shoes or barefoot, the heel may take some getting used to. I do all of my weight training in my OL shoes just because I am so used to them. I realize this may not be StrongFirst approved training footwear, but I am getting older and set in my ways.

For those who have aspirations of competing in GS, OL shoes are a good investment. For all others, I don't know. Do you want to spend about $100, which is the cost of the least expensive shoe, only to improve your jerk for personal enjoyment and possibly have to get accustomed to the slight heel? That's what you need to ask yourself.
 
From the WKC rules page
"...and a belt is permissible if it falls within WKC® specifications*. No gloves allowed, and tape is not permitted past the wrist. Shoes are required. If you choose to wear a belt, it cannot be used to assist the lift in any way, including brief rest. Resting the elbows on the belt or using it to launch the weight is not permitted and will result in a Stop at the Judge’s discretion. It’s strictly up to the Lifter to convince the Judge they are not using the belt illegally, and they should consult the Judge in the minutes before the performance to clarify that Judge’s standards of proper use. The Lifter is advised to have the belt below the hip bones (iliac crest) as to not risk unintentional use of the belt. Belt “use” is completely the Judges call, and the Lifter must accept their judgement."
 
Steve Freides said:
Hi, @Martine Kerr - always nice to see you here.

I haven't heard of anything GS related that didn't allow resting the elbows on the belt - do you know of any specific federations/events that have this rule?

-S-
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Sorry Steve, I'm lurking! See previous post on WKC rules.
 
Well, that is a change. I took a GS coach's cert in 2007, and we were taught to do everything possible to get our elbows to rest on the belt.

-S-
 
GS is very much like powerlifting, the specific techniques don't matter as much as the numbers achieved legally so this allows for much accommodation for different body types. There are champions with short torsos and long arms and the opposite such as Fedor Fuglev who uses a more up and down technique. It's no surprise his background was Olympic lifting
And as with powerlifting one body type that is great for squatting is usually not optimal for deadlifting and vice versa, but as we know, strong( er) fixes almost everything :)
 
Steve Freides said:
Hi, @Martine Kerr - always nice to see you here.

I haven't heard of anything GS related that didn't allow resting the elbows on the belt - do you know of any specific federations/events that have this rule?

-S-
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the only sport that changes organizations and rules more frequently than powerlifting is GS :)
 
StrongFirst Team Leader Louka Kurcer did a neat video recently of a side-by-side GS and hardstyle snatch. Be sure to read the text under the video too. Describes pros and cons to each type.

 
You have to expand the window within YouTube to see it, but here's a copy/paste:

"What are the main differences between Girevoy (kettlebell) Sport and Hardstyle kettlebell training?

You could compare them both to marathoners and sprinters.
Both have pros and cons, but which one is better suited for you?
I interviewed Irish world champion in Girevoy Sport and also SGF2, Fionn Toolan about the topic and here's what he had to say:
"Hardstyle, using maximum or close to maximum acceleration on a ballistic movement. Normally, a person can do no more than 30 seconds worth of hardstyle anything, the same way no one can't really sprint for much longer than that. With hardstyle, think power, strength and explosiveness.
GS (Girevoy Sport) is an strength/endurance based sport that calls into play every part of your musculature to compete a lift. The main events, jerk, snatch and long cycle are completed for a duration of 10 minutes. The snatch only allowing one hand change and the jerk and long cycle not allowing for the competitor to put the kettlebells down. Kettlebell lifting with proper technique requires all of the large muscle groups of both the upper and lower body to participate to move the kettlebell through the desired range of motion for 10 minutes.
Both hardstlye and GS promote strength, endurance and mobility. At the SFG (StrongFirst Girya)certification, all instructors must complete 100 kettlebell snatches to showcase their endurance. To showcase their strength, they must complete grind movements like the squat, press and the get up. In GS, you must conserve energy to promote efficiency within each of the lifts as you're competing for 10 minutes.
With that being said, I would definitely recommend hardstyle for the general population rather than GS. I believe that people need to gain real word strength and mobility in a safe and progressive manner, hardstyle offers the greatest return and benefits from your given time. The general population need to squat, hinge, push, pull and carry heavy objects. GS requires a lot of mobility and muscular range of motion to perform, these are two things that the general population lack. If you're to add load to muscles that lack the proper mobility and stability, you're adding load to disfunction."
Here is a video of us performing the Snatch with two different techniques. Fionn doing GS and me doing Hardstyle, at KB5 in Prague."
 
Regardless of what STYLE you prefer, it think it's a good idea to learn how to *not* let the bell flip straight over your hand on the downswing. It's easy; just rotate the hand slightly inward and the bell falls. Easy peasy, and it is way easier on your hands. Happy hands = less downtime.
 
@Terry McCarthy, doing what you describe is, if I'm not mistaken, not legal on the snatch technique test at our Level I kettlebell instructor certification, although it would be allowed on the snatch-for-reps test. @Louka Kurcer, in the video, flips the bell straight over his hand in both directions.

@Brett Jones?

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
@Terry McCarthy, doing what you describe is, if I'm not mistaken, not legal on the snatch technique test at our Level I kettlebell instructor certification, although it would be allowed on the snatch-for-reps test. @Louka Kurcer, in the video, flips the bell straight over his hand in both directions.

@Brett Jones?

-S-
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If you look at the Fuglev video posted above, he is using a more subtle corkscrew that looks much closer to hard style than most GS competitors I've seen. This is more like what I go for in my personal practice, in that it IS easier on the grip, but goes well with the hard style hip hinge and other aspects of hard style technique. In addition to just being his personal style, his fast cadence on that video may be another reason there is some convergence there.

I can't comment on SFG standards, and when I did my RKC certifications under Pavel I believe I snatched more straight over the top because that's how we were instructed. However, I think most people would be well-served by a technique more like what @Terry McCarthy describes. To me, the hard style hip hinge vs the GS pendulum is the most dramatic difference between the two styles, even though most people tend to focus on the corkscrew drop.
 
Steve W. said:
If you look at the Fuglev video posted above, he is using a more subtle corkscrew that looks much closer to hard style than most GS competitors I've seen. This is more like what I go for in my personal practice, in that it IS easier on the grip, but goes well with the hard style hip hinge and other aspects of hard style technique. In addition to just being his personal style, his fast cadence on that video may be another reason there is some convergence there.

I can't comment on SFG standards, and when I did my RKC certifications under Pavel I believe I snatched more straight over the top because that's how we were instructed. However, I think most people would be well-served by a technique more like what @Terry McCarthy describes. To me, the hard style hip hinge vs the GS pendulum is the most dramatic difference between the two styles, even though most people tend to focus on the corkscrew drop.
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As I mentioned earlier, there are as many different individual variations of gs technique as their are lifters; straight arms, bent arms, mucho lay back vs no layback, foot pedaling vs no pedal, etc etc.
the entire focus on gs is sparing the grip and being relaxed as possible so as to do as many reps as possible with one hand switch. This is the opposite of HS philosopy obviously.

This is why the snatch test got changed from the one hand switch version that it was when I took it in 2005 to the current version with multiple hand switches and being able to put the bell down

One of the best examples of the Snatch test I've seen was in Croatia in 2013 when the candidates did 5 sets of 10/10 totally hardstyle, in 35 seconds, put it down, shook it out then picked it up on the minute and continued. This way there was no need for anatomical breathing, no corkscrew on the descent or any other gs techniques to increase endurance.

Pavel always said that once one could do 50/50 with one hand switch( definitely achievable with HS techniques) there was little advantage physically or physiologically to pushing further.
Remember also that the GS bell handle is about the size of a 12 kg bell for all weights. BIG advantage when doing high reps.
 
Steve W. said:
If you look at the Fuglev video posted above, he is using a more subtle corkscrew that looks much closer to hard style than most GS competitors I've seen. This is more like what I go for in my personal practice, in that it IS easier on the grip, but goes well with the hard style hip hinge and other aspects of hard style technique. In addition to just being his personal style, his fast cadence on that video may be another reason there is some convergence there.

I can't comment on SFG standards, and when I did my RKC certifications under Pavel I believe I snatched more straight over the top because that's how we were instructed. However, I think most people would be well-served by a technique more like what @Terry McCarthy describes. To me, the hard style hip hinge vs the GS pendulum is the most dramatic difference between the two styles, even though most people tend to focus on the corkscrew drop.
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If one practices it enough you can do over the top descent with no hand /skin stress either. It definitely is tougher on the grip but that's another issue
 
Rif said:
Pavel always said that once one could do 50/50 with one hand switch( definitely achievable with HS techniques) there was little advantage physically or physiologically to pushing further.
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Curiosity as well as thinking this a worthy goal brings up this question: Given that my snatch weight bell is 20 kg, is there any way to guesstimate what a similar level of strength and conditioning would be for one-handed long cycle i.e. X/X with with one switch with a single, Y weight bell?
 
He writes about it in the original Russian Kettlebell Challenge book . as to your question I would guess 50 reps. In the same book he writes about doing 45/45 snatches with the 32 and 45 jerks ( short cycle ) with double 32's, so I would guess that number, but long cycle might make it less. Bottom line is that once you achieve a serious level of basic strength endurance conditioning with either of the basic kb lifts more becomes more about technique efficiency and specificity of training rather than basic GPP. Hence GS :)
 
welcome. I just checked the book and the more than 50 reps and one hits diminishing returns is not from there. Perhaps it was in conversation. In the beginning kb comps in russia were " military applied sports" and more for creating better soldiers than kb sports competitors.
 
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