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Kettlebell 1 vs 2hand swings in S&S

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Kozushi said:
Some have insisted that after attaining proficiency doing S&S with the 32kg that when you move up in weight to the 40 and then 48 it is necessary that you only progress using 1 handed swings.

I don't remember reading this in the "Kettlebell: Simple and Sinister" book.

I do remember reading that S&S uses both double and single handed swings, and that you mix them up when moving up in weight.

I started at 16kg less than a year ago and now I'm at 40kg.

When I have more time and energy I do all the swings single handedly, but on weak days or when I'm in a rush I mix in 2handed ones.

What do y'all think?
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First of all, congratulations on your meteoric progress! I'm of the opinion that 40k is an impressive weight. To your question: I have read that the two arm swing, with big weight, is unparalleled for developing power, while the OAS mainly focuses on stabilizer stength, speed, cardiovascular fitness and fat loss. I know that it's borderline blasphemy, but I like to start and finish my S&S sessions with 20 two arm heavy swings to, hopefully, hit everything . (This would, of course, include Pavel's famous warm up which, believe me when I tell you, I keep short.) I have a feeling that Pavel would say that this is unnecessary in the S&S context, but I do them anyway'cuz they feel so goooood! Strength to you!
 
Kettlebelephant said:
@Swann 1 already gave that answer:


The only time yo use 2H-Swings is on light days (this are shadow swings. Sure they are 2-handed, but still a different animal than your usual 2H-swings) and for the non-stop swing test (which is only introduced after working with the 32):

"The perfect swing weight for an unloading workout is 30% of your bodyweight, which is the sweet spot for power production, (...) Use the two-arm version and employ overspeed eccentrics, the shadow swing."
- S&S, Kindle Location 1416 (Chapter: The goals and how to reach them)

"Every two weeks take a kettlebell one or more sizes lighter than the one you are currently swinging. Pick a swing variation - two-arm, one-arm, hand-to-hand, mixed - and enjoy the pain.
Do not introduce non-stop swings into your training until your normal training weight is 24Kg if you are a woman, or 32Kg if you are a man."
- S&S, Kindle Location 1481 (Chapter: Die but do)

Both things are mentioned a second time in the final chapter Simple & Sinister Summarized (Kindle Location 1547-1577) in points 7. and 10.

Even though you personally may use 2HS as progession tactic to go up in weight, they're not mentioned in the given progession examples in the book.
See pictures/charts in S&S, Kindle Locations 1429 & 1442 (Chapter: The goals and how to reach them)


Honestly I don't want to offend anyone, but lately there are a lot of questions about S&S that are simply answered by just reading/re-reading the book.
Finding the things in the book and writing this reply took me 20min, so it's not too much to ask to find the answer yourself and only ask if you still couldn't find it. (You in this context means everyone)

EDIT: BTW there's nothing wrong with 2HSs or them beeing the only swing you use in your S&S practice. It's just not S&S anymore or as Rippetoe would say: "You are not doing the program"
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Of you
aciampa said:
Agreed, but I believe that this is a good thing. Some of this forum has evolved to act as confirmation of the flagship programs we use. For each of the posts asking questions that are "answered in the book", there are likely several folks who read and execute with little problem. It's a good thing that folks ask; even if it is repeated. Its also a great thing that folks like you take the time to answer their questions.
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That's what keeps this great resource going! Discourse!
 
LejonBrames said:
I was actually posting on the Reddit sub a few weeks ago about things in the book people missed and things like this, the problem is the book may give you conflicting information dozens of pages apart.

There's a part near the beginning that explains why s&s uses both swing variations. So of course you read that, find it peculiar, and make a post. As you await the intelligent discourse on the forum you read further I'm the book, THEN get to the part about transitioning to single hand swings only.

Suddenly, your well intentioned and insightful discovery post becomes static noise on the forum. It's a tough experience.
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Well intentioned, nevertheless!
 
Hello,

Both swing techniques have a lot to offer (shadow, eccentric overspeed, 1H, 2H, different stances, etc...). Depending on the goals and constraints (time, recovery, etc...) they are all very useful and worth "mastering". I put quotes because we never master totally a bell ;)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
While I'll keep reiterating that I don't think I'm anyone special at all, I'll chime in with a little thought I've had recently about kettlebell training, and this thought is that the weight of the bell determines the value of the exercise.

What I mean is exemplified in this way:

24kg? ROP for sure! It's just way too light for S&S for me, but for C&P and snatches, AWESOME! I'll get a great workout with it!

32kg? Very hard 1h swings, never 2h, since it's just TOO LIGHT for me for 2h; and VERY SLOW getups, like veeeerrrrryyyy slllooowwww.

40kg? Mixture of 1h and 2h swings; getups at normal speed.

48kg? 2h swings only; only 3 getups - can't handle more than that.

So, based on this menu, the best for me is the 40.
 
Kozushi said:
That's funny, so the shadow swings are 1 handed as well. Hahaha. Oh boy! There is a LOT of writing in the S&S book, and I think since the author is a genius he maybe forgets how dumb some of us readers are out there.

So, what I'm doing on weaker days is "wrestling the kettlebell" to replace the typical 1h swings.

What I probably ought to be doing to stay strictly to the S&S book is to keep to the 32 for the 1h swings, and then use the 40 for the TGUs. However, I've put my 32 kettlebells away, and I have just my 40 and 48 out now. There is most definitely a limit to how many 1h 40k swings I can do in one session. While I have in fact done the whole routine 1 handed with the 40 a few times in the past, I can't keep it up daily. I've found that either 40 or 60 1h swings with the 40 is my real daily max; I finish the sets by doing 2h swings. I guess that's a bastardization of S&S since you're supposed to mix the 40 and 32 together but stay to 1h swings. Anyhow, I'm still a tank because of S&S and "Bastardized S&S" that I do, so "who cares?" I guess??? Hahaha! :)
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Here's an idea... can you 2H swing the 48 for any reasonable amount of sets?

Where i am coming from... 40kg 2H swings made your 32kg 1H solid and got you to (and keeps you at) Simple easily.
Now, you're struggling with 40 1H... following from your previous experience, why don't you use the 48kg 2H to improve your 40kg 1H?

Might not be realistic, but might help...


BTW, I agree with "who cares" on a bastardized version of S&S, training is about making progress however it works for you!
 
Hello,

@Aussie L
Depending on the bells you have, you can also DIY a 40 by adding some plates to a bell. It works well for some moves such as GUs and swings.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
ClaudeR said:
Here's an idea... can you 2H swing the 48 for any reasonable amount of sets?

Where i am coming from... 40kg 2H swings made your 32kg 1H solid and got you to (and keeps you at) Simple easily.
Now, you're struggling with 40 1H... following from your previous experience, why don't you use the 48kg 2H to improve your 40kg 1H?

Might not be realistic, but might help...


BTW, I agree with "who cares" on a bastardized version of S&S, training is about making progress however it works for you!
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Yes! That is a great idea!

I can 2h swing the 48 no problem 100 times.
I can TGU it 3 times per side before I get too wobbly and in danger of falling down.

Hmmm... Maybe I ought to try 100 swings and 3 getups per side with the 48 for my S&S until I get stronger, and then move up to 5 getups per side as mandated. I'm just leery of losing the exercise time that I get with two more reps of TGUs. Hmmm... but the heavier weight is better though. I'll give it some thought and maybe start this tonight. Since it doesn't quite measure up to "Sinister" as it's 2h swings and only 3 getups, maybe I'll call it "Bastard", so my adjustment of S&S can be styled "Simple and Bastard."
 
no need to go to 48 for the getups, keep them at 5 reps with the 40, work in the 48 as you can.
right now your goal is not Sinister, it is 10x10 1H swings with the 40kg, so specific training for that. The getups can fall where they may, just continue as you were.

Another idea... with the obvious caveat that I am not a certified trainer!
as your goal is 10x10 1H swings with the 40, you could program reps per day (say 100, but you could wave it up and down if you feel like spending time in spreadsheets), and work in 1H swings as you can?

for example, you do 2x10 1H 40kg (each hand) -> 40 swings
next set you find that you can only do 5 reps each hand, so do that, a set of 5 1H each side -> 10 swings
you're still short 50 swings, so fill those up with sets of 10 2H swings (100 swings total)

next time, you might be able to do 2x10 1H 40kg each side -> 40 swings, as before
on the next set you get to 6 reps each hand -> 12 swings
still short 48, so fill up with 5x10 2H (102 swings total)

etc, keep adding single reps by feel to the set that is causing trouble, progress that until you get to 3x10 1H, then 4x10 1H, etc. fill up the rest until +- 100 swings. Completely ignore any time requirements, get enough rest to be confident you will have good crisp reps.
on bad days you can do 10x10 2H, or take a day off, or do anything you want. you'll probably want to deload some days. Nobody says you have to stick to 100 in those days either, wave the load

once or twice a week go for 2H swings 10x10 with the 48, for additional variety (and maybe help to break the plateau). this is optional

as you're not into Sinister per se for now but have an intermediate goal nobody says you have to stick to sets of 10... go by feel, over the long run increasing your 1H reps with the 40, wave it up and down, take easy days here and there, and flip the crazy switch and really go for it sometimes
 
ClaudeR said:
no need to go to 48 for the getups, keep them at 5 reps with the 40, work in the 48 as you can.
right now your goal is not Sinister, it is 10x10 1H swings with the 40kg, so specific training for that. The getups can fall where they may, just continue as you were.

Another idea... with the obvious caveat that I am not a certified trainer!
as your goal is 10x10 1H swings with the 40, you could program reps per day (say 100, but you could wave it up and down if you feel like spending time in spreadsheets), and work in 1H swings as you can?

for example, you do 2x10 1H 40kg (each hand) -> 40 swings
next set you find that you can only do 5 reps each hand, so do that, a set of 5 1H each side -> 10 swings
you're still short 50 swings, so fill those up with sets of 10 2H swings (100 swings total)

next time, you might be able to do 2x10 1H 40kg each side -> 40 swings, as before
on the next set you get to 6 reps each hand -> 12 swings
still short 48, so fill up with 5x10 2H (102 swings total)

etc, keep adding single reps by feel to the set that is causing trouble, progress that until you get to 3x10 1H, then 4x10 1H, etc. fill up the rest until +- 100 swings. Completely ignore any time requirements, get enough rest to be confident you will have good crisp reps.
on bad days you can do 10x10 2H, or take a day off, or do anything you want. you'll probably want to deload some days. Nobody says you have to stick to 100 in those days either, wave the load

once or twice a week go for 2H swings 10x10 with the 48, for additional variety (and maybe help to break the plateau). this is optional

as you're not into Sinister per se for now but have an intermediate goal nobody says you have to stick to sets of 10... go by feel, over the long run increasing your 1H reps with the 40, wave it up and down, take easy days here and there, and flip the crazy switch and really go for it sometimes
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I will follow exactly this plan, thank you sir.
 
let us know how it goes! I am not a trainer, this is simply what I would do, so if it doesn't work, don't get too locked into it!
 
ClaudeR said:
let us know how it goes! I am not a trainer, this is simply what I would do, so if it doesn't work, don't get too locked into it!
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Very well so far. Actually the first day I took huge breaks in between and did 80 single handedly then 20 2h. The second day I did 40 1h and 60 2h. I was too tired the third day for anything, and today is the 4th day but it is also kendo night for me so I'm not sure I'll do S&S today. If I do, I'll try for 40 1h and 60 2h swings again.
 
Hello,

ClaudeR said:
let us know how it goes! I am not a trainer, this is simply what I would do, so if it doesn't work, don't get too locked into it!
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Maybe the frame two days on one day off which is training 5 days a week can be worth considering when you do not have too many other physical activities.

In addition to that, waving you swing volume can also be good to manage plenty of rest. However, some days will have to more more intense days.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Okay, I'm doing them all 1 handed now, thank God!

It's SO MUCH BETTER!!!

I'm feeling much better, much stronger. I found the trick was to start by doing them all in sets of 5 instead of 10. No big deal at all. The real programme really is to do them 1 handed and now I clearly see why! WAY BETTER! I will however stick to the programme and every so often "wrestle the kettlebell" by doing as many 2 handed swings as possible in a row.
 
Okay, so what I think about comparing the two moves is:

1 hand swings are more of a muscle developer - so "hypertrophic".
2 hand swings are more of a cardio-vascular conditioner - so "aerobic"(?)

The 2 handed swings make my heart and lungs work more, but the 1 handed swings make them work maybe about 75% as hard, but definitely challenge the muscles much more, probably about the same for the lower body and certainly more for most of the upper body. Maybe the 2 handed swings work the front of the abs a bit harder because we're doing the swings harder - I'm not sure about that though.
 
Hello,

Kozushi said:
Maybe the 2 handed swings work the front of the abs a bit harder because we're doing the swings harder
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IMO that makes sense because there is less lats engagement (no anti-twist work with the 2H version). At least I feel it that way.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
To add to that, while I went against the book and did mostly 2 handed swings with the 40 for a few months before figuring out how to do the 100 swings wholly 1 handed, I packed on some belly flab at the front and sides. Now that I'm doing the swings 1 handed, the belly flab is gone - my midriff is all toned up nice.

I agree with the book: once you get to doing the swings one handed "it is the only version you'll ever need."

I don't see what I'll be accomplishing by doing swings 2 handed any more - maybe just once in a while if I'm feeling really knackered.
 
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