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Old Forum Dragondoor Article: Swings and Get-ups aren't enough

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http://www.dragondoor.com/swings_and_get-ups_are_not_enough/

Well, I am technologically challenged. I guess the more advanced can just copy and paste the text into their browser.
 
Skank fails at reading comprehension. He obviously doesn't understand s&s at all. He fits the stereotype of no brained athelete.

 
 
I almost don't want to comment on this, but after a few whiskeys, f**k it...

My short answer to the title, is: for who?

The monk within me wants to say, this is fine.

The cynic in me wants to say that the author needed fodder for an article, or whatever that is.

The skeptic in me thinks that he's banging on S&S, not the PM, but explicitly S&S, for whatever reason.

The honorable part of me wants to respectfully deconstruct:
1A) Get-Up x 1/side (upper push)
1B) Swing x 10 (lower pull)
1C) Hip Flexor Stretch x 10 breaths/side (mobility)
Repeat 5 times

2A) Row x 8 (upper pull)
2B) Reverse Lunge x5/side (lower push)
2C) Thoracic Bridge (mobility)
Repeat 5 times
Click to expand...
The swing has no hip flexor stretch?  The getup has no lunge?  A proper swing does not tie in the upper back and lats as the row does?  So, the T-bridge is really the only thing not covered... but I think that a lot of us crawl.  Hmmm...

In my experience, little more than the swing and get up preps those folks whose lives are at stake every time they go out.  I don't know a better measure for efficacy... unless we're talking about hypertrophy, or some other "polished" existence.

Disclaimer: the author of this post is highly biased toward get-up & swing type minimalist programs that helps bring loved ones home at night.

PS: The intellect in me told me to stop writing a long time ago :)
 
This guy has a bone to pick with the strong first community based on interviews I've heard with him.  Much like Steve Maxwell and a few others, they really seem to spend a lot of their time promoting their system and ideas by denouncing others.  I really have no use for that.

It was just last week pavel published an article about traiming for health and longevity.  In that article he absolutley said swings and getups are important.  Nowhere did I see him say it's the only thing you should ever do again.  he promoted moderation, performing different types of strength training, not neglecting mobility/flexibility and getting outdoors.

I never got the sense from the S&S text that it was the end all be all of performance enhancement in any and all activities.  Rather, it's a learning tool and a foundation builder utilizing swings, getups AND goblet squats.  It's designed as a recharge to supplement your lifestyle or other training.  it even incorporates mobility and flexibility drills.

One thing I really like about the information I find here is that it's presented in a way that is intended to enhance the end user.   If your a marathon runner, cool, but please don't neglect strength training. If your a power lifter, cool, make sure you work on mobility and flexibility too.   its about helping people do whatever they do better, through strength.  I've never heard anyone here tear down another system to elevate this one, this one doesn't need elevated because the proof is in the success of the practitioners.  Like the saying goes "we're not saying your wrong...we just know we're right" :)
 
The main of the article appears to be for marketing his new book so I can see why he would want to undermine a program based on swings & kettlbells only to create space for why his book is needed.
 
Reading Simple and Sinister and Mastering the Kettlebell side-by-side is an interesting exercise.

 

 

 
 
everything that Al said - plus - I just watched the authors youtube of the thoracic bridge and it looks like he pulled out a piece of the TGU and dropped the bell, so he could wave his arm around and "stretch".  it's not that his exercise recommendations are bad, they're not, but they don't seem to add anything to what S&S already accomplishes, and by the way, if you feel you need to add an upper pull and lower push to your day 2, wouldn't you be much better served by a deadlift for both, than rows and lunges?  I don't buy it ...
 
Interesting to argue that get ups aren't enough and then promote your new book with, er, a picture of a get up.
 
Thanks for the link.

I like that he started off with "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." I wonder how he would view this blog by Pavel: Everything IS a Nail

If this is an attack on S&S it is a very poor and ignorant one. As Al pointed out, the get up has a lunge in it (lower push) and the swing is almost as much an upper pull as it is a lower one, especially if done with one arm. The get up is also fantastic for mobility, however even disregarding that, S&S both includes goblet squats (lower push) and mobility exercises in the warm up. So, by his standards S&S is a great program.
 
Totally agree, especially with what Al said. It's not enough for who?

There seems to be so much hate and bad-mouthing from the other camp that you just don't really see on the SF site at all. Small people...
 
Ladies ang Gentlemen,

Please stop this.  We don't say others are wrong, only that we know what we teach works.  If someone wants to write an article like that one, that's fine.  If you let it get under your skin, that's on you.

-S-
 
I Agree with steve. The only person who I see has the right to rant on this would be Pavel. But he has chosen to let the results speak for themselves. If this forum ranted every time someone said s&s isn't enough or kettlebells don't build muscle we wouldn't get to learn anything from one another. And I believe that is what sets this group apart. Not because we say they are wrong. But because we say and have seen we are right. And I'm glad to be a part of a group the the leader has the class not to rant and rave just because someone says his style isn't enough.

 
 
Steve, agreed - I call it Rule of the Three Monkeys: "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil."

Fourth Monkey, unknown to the Japanese masters of the 17 century who carved the original Three on the Tōshō-gū shrine in Nikkō, sends clear message: "Practice your Swing and Get Ups" :)
 
I talked with Max after I read the article. I think this is important, by the way,...rather than me slinging stones and wrath, I asked him.

His point wasn't about the PM or Pavel's new work. His point was that in the past decade many of have given the dose of "Swings and Get Ups" to any illness, disease and injury. Someone was pounding on me recently as an anonymous poster and said that is all I ever tell people was "swings and get ups." I would argue that is not true, but I do agree that these two moves, with the Goblet Squat to help out, too, are a pretty good triad of movements.

The PM has this word in it "minimum." It is a fun exercise to imagine the "least you need to do" in training. No one is forcing you to do it. I like it a lot. In my next book, I have a conditioning program with only ten movements. I was asked if I could train someone with mobility, strength, and cardio with just ten movements. It was fun to do, but why not five? Or two?

It's good to do this as a coach or trainer. Cutting back seems to actually increase your coaching tool box. Max himself believes that four movements trump everything else and I am sure he will get some criticism because he doesn't include skull crushers.

To sell articles, you have to have some level of hyperbole. Here is what I write about each and every time:

Strengthen what is weakening.

Stretch what is tightening.

Seek Mastery.

Fit goes far.

If I need to add something about diet: more veggies, water, and protein.

None of that is going to sell week in and week out.

There is a great line in Dune: I cut a piece of cloth and you made a suit out of it. For me, when I read the article, I had the same reaction as many of you. After reflection, his points are valid and i will keep an eye on my own coaching.
 
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