Recommendations/Reviews/FS/WTB John Du Cane on Lebe Starks podcast

[watchnerd]

The funny thing about John's comments re: women is that I don't see DD doing a great job of marketing to women, either.

Whenever I see KBs marketed specifically to women (and there is a lot of it), as opposed to part of a general S&C method that has female trainees (like Crossfit) it's most commonly in something like Women's Health, Instagram, or YouTube and they're showing vinyl-coated KBs that seem ludicrously small.

Or KB swings are just one exercise in a booty building routine.

 

[Stefan Olsson]

Could be, yes... And I was military myself for 20 years, so it never bothered me. If anything, I felt it to be... familiar.

Exactly.

Most of that seemed to be from the DD era. If anything it has faded with time.

"Sissy" seems to me to be both a harmless and useful term to get someone (man or woman) to "man up". Too bad our society wants to throw out the good with the bad! Oh well. But I see that times are changing in how things are received and perceived, and I think Pavel and the StrongFirst organization do too. I don't hear it much anymore.

I hope you are right, but this stuff is often bought up outside of this forum when SF/Pavel are talked about.

The pressure to make a statement in support of BLM specifically was misplaced, I think; although the desire for support and being a force for good regarding what is/was going on in society was not misplaced. Unfortunately in some views there wasn't a way to provide the desired support without making the specific statement. Hated to lose some good people over it. Hopefully the actual evidence of lack of racism will bear itself out over time.

No one is lost. Perhaps people stepped away from SF but they are still active trainers. Its not like they caught the plauge or anything

 

[silveraw]

The funny thing about John's comments re: women is that I don't see DD doing a great job of marketing to women, either

I dunno. Andrea Du Cane hustles pretty hard. And a quick very unscientific sampling of their workshops it looks like most are taught by women.

But yeah, 99% of their books look like they are advertised to suburban dads who drive lifted tacomas and are banned from their kids little league games for throwing hands at the ref.

 

[Stefan Olsson]

The funny thing about John's comments re: women is that I don't see DD doing a great job of marketing to women, either.

I agree. One thing I must admire DD for is their web layout is hillariously outdated yet they dont seem to give a f***

 

[rwleonard]

I always thought Pavel used the term "sissy" to avoid offending people with the word we actually used in the military.

People have really worked hard to advance the art of being offended, and they have succeeded admirably.

 

[Anna C]

No one is lost. Perhaps people stepped away from SF but they are still active trainers. Its not like they caught the plauge or anything

True. And for anyone who makes a living at it, I admire their fortitude and creativity in navigating a line of work that feels so personal at times. It becomes very hard to be who you are if you feel that is at odds with an organization you have aligned yourself with. So, sometimes a split becomes necessary. Just like the one that started this thread.

 

[Kev]

Yep! Nothing wrong with Dragondoor. I was a StrongFirst and RKC certified Kettlebell Instructor from 2015-2021/2022.

And almost all of my kettlebells (pairs of 12kg, 14kg, 16kg, 18kg, 20kg, 22kg, 24kg, 26kg, 28kg & singles of 30kg, 32kg & 36kg) are Dragondoor!

They're still my favorite kettlebells (I also have Kettlebell Kings, Rep Fitness, Kettlebells USA, Art of Strength/Punch, and Rogue). But I may pick up a few StrongFirst kettlebells if they go on sale.

I’ve never seen one here. I live in Scotland.

 

[silveraw]

It becomes very hard to be who you are if you feel that is at odds with an organization you have aligned yourself with. So, sometimes a split becomes necessary. Just like the one that started this thread

One of the master RKCs had a interesting story about this. He was pretty much writing his resignation letter when he got that phone call to quit rkc and join sf.

He then essentially declined the Invitation and deleted the resignation letter. Went on to write master the kettlebell.

 

[TimothyGander]

I did see some of this going on in 2020 as there were a small group of vocal SFG's (in the private Instructor FB group) complaining that StrongFirst needed to publicly address how they supported BLM (and other things going on at the time).

It's interesting and worrying. I've heard about the attack on Crossfit and specifically Greg Glassman during that time, but I've thought SF is too obscure to be an attractive target for entryists. Good of Pavel not to fall for the "hello fellow SFGs" routine.

The funny thing about John's comments re: women is that I don't see DD doing a great job of marketing to women, either.

I think there's still the idea that many women will shy away from anything presented as hard, heavy and/or difficult. The conflict might be over JDC wanting to dilute the original thing with cardio/band/aerobic-type stuff to attract more customers vs Pavel insisting on the rugged strength approach. I think S&S even contains a quip about not insulting women with talk about "shaping the female problem areas" and so on.

Another point: I think it's either uninformed or dishonest of JDC to claim SF's kettlebell system is essentially the same thing also taught at RKC. The Strong Endurance/Q&D/A&A stuff is definitely new. This definitely makes me doubt the veracity of his other claims in this podcast.

 

[silveraw]

Another point: I think it's either uninformed or dishonest of JDC to claim SF's kettlebell system is essentially the same thing also taught at RKC.

I think you are taking what john said out of context. He was referring to the RKC and SFG curricula as they were out of the gate.

 

[TimothyGander]

I think you are taking what john said out of context. He was referring to the RKC and SFG curricula as they were out of the gate.

You may be right. For me at least, especially in context of the entire podcast, it did seem to imply that the difference between the two rests more on brand image rather than principles and teachings.

 

[silveraw]

it did seem to imply that the difference between the two rests more on brand image rather than principles and teachings.

He isn't the only one to imply that. To quote Mark Toomey from Pavel's article about it here: The First Ever SFG Kettlebell Certification | StrongFirst
" We are the RKC. The Chief, the people, the system, the traditions—they are all here.”

But yeah, I kind of think of it like this. You know how the "General Association of Baptists" and the "General Association of General Baptist" churches are both baptist churches and the difference between them doesn't matter except to the people running the two associations?

 

[Steve W.]

He isn't the only one to imply that. To quote Mark Toomey from Pavel's article about it here: The First Ever SFG Kettlebell Certification | StrongFirst
" We are the RKC. The Chief, the people, the system, the traditions—they are all here.”

But yeah, I kind of think of it like this. You know how the "General Association of Baptists" and the "General Association of General Baptist" churches are both baptist churches and the difference between them doesn't matter except to the people running the two associations?

That reminds me of this joke by Emo Philips:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.
I said, "Don't do it!"

He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.​

People often take small differences very seriously. It seems like a significant percentage of discussion on this forum consists of splitting hairs and making mountains out of molehills.

 

[silveraw]

That reminds me of this joke by Emo Philips:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. ​

I said, "Don't do it!" ​

​

He said, "Nobody loves me." ​

I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"​

He said, "Yes." ​

​

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" ​

He said, "A Christian." ​

​

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" ​

He said, "Protestant." ​

​

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" ​

He said, "Baptist." ​

​

I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" ​

He said, "Northern Baptist." ​

​

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"​

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." ​

​

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" ​

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."​

​

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" ​

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." ​

​

I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.​

People often take small differences very seriously. It seems like a significant percentage of discussion on this forum consists of splitting hairs and making mountains out of molehills.

that was the exact joke I was thinking of lol.

 

[Mike Torres]

I'm not going to comment on this video directly. Rather, I thought it might be helpful to outline why I personally continue to be affiliated with StrongFirst. Note: I started my training with an RKC in January 2011.

1. I believe StrongFirst is one of the most innovative, forward-thinking organizations in the industry. The advances over the last 10 years (aka since the start of this organization) in how we teach kettlebell, barbell, and bodyweight skills have been significant, and are constantly evolving based on experimentation and feedback. Plan Strong, Built Strong, Reload, Kettlebells StrongFirst, The Quick & the Dead, Simple & Sinister, Strong Endurance, Second Wind, StrongFirst Resilient, O-Lifting, and All-Terrain Conditioning have all arrived over the last decade... the organization has evolved and grown so much since 2012 that unless you've experienced it directly, you probably don't know (and therefore shouldn't compare it to what it may have been like 10 years ago).
2. The many StrongFirst events I've attended have always been inclusive, supportive, and welcoming to everyone. People from all backgrounds, skill levels, and walks of life attend StrongFirst workshops and certifications - and I've never walked away without the deep feeling of a massive, global, supportive community. When I see photos from the events pop up, I still smile every time because of the people I've met and the shared experiences we've had.
3. The standards are as high as they've ever been. I've never seen a "beat down" or a "tough guy" attitude at any event, but I have seen our Teachers of Strength hold instructor candidates to our standards. As a result, earning your SFG , SFL, or SFB means something - it means you've put in serious work, know how to teach it, and have accomplished something special. It's the reason people cry happy tears at events, and it's why you see people posting on social media about how proud they are of these accomplishments using the language they use.

Separately, a number of instructors who publicly 'left' the organization in 2020 have since chosen to re-certify. Several of them have even been assisting at certifications over the last year. And some of them have decided to continue their journey with other organizations or go solo. All of this is OK.

What I know is that what we have in StrongFirst is unique in the industry - and if it speaks to you, that's great. If it doesn't, that's great too! Either way, I have very high confidence that StrongFirst will keep breaking new ground, growing a community of strength, and holding our instructors to the highest standards.

 

[watchnerd]

He isn't the only one to imply that. To quote Mark Toomey from Pavel's article about it here: The First Ever SFG Kettlebell Certification | StrongFirst
" We are the RKC. The Chief, the people, the system, the traditions—they are all here.”

But yeah, I kind of think of it like this. You know how the "General Association of Baptists" and the "General Association of General Baptist" churches are both baptist churches and the difference between them doesn't matter except to the people running the two associations?

It all seems like hardstyle to me, just with different spices.

Like different flavors of kenpo karate.

Whereas when I look at GS, it’s very different

 

[TimothyGander]

You know how the "General Association of Baptists" and the "General Association of General Baptist" churches are both baptist churches and the difference between them doesn't matter except to the people running the two associations?

But I assume neither of them would actually claim/admit that the difference between them doesn't matter. If one of them merely claimed they are as good of a Baptist as the other, I'd assume it's an empty shell that's been kept around for tax purposes.

We are the RKC. The Chief, the people, the system, the traditions—they are all here.

Here - not there. With 80% of instructors leaving and some quitting altogether, what exactly was left at DD?

Anyway, I think the real reason for the split was more mundane: at some point Pavel realized selling books and videos for the general audience just isn't a profitable business model when everything will be available for free online as soon as it's published. So if you don't plan to publish much material, why do you need a publishing house again (although S&S and Q&D could really use an actual editor)? The partnership has simply outlived its usefulness.

 

[watchnerd]

videos

We don't even have a way to play physical video media in our house anymore.

Got rid of the DVD / Blu-Ray player years ago. It's all streaming for us now.

 

[rwleonard]

Just from the video I think DD wanted to try to appeal to a broader audience, which in their minds would require Pavel to take some of the edge off, while Pavel wasn't interested in that. Good. Now we have both, so more choices.

 

[Adam R Mundorf]

It might have to do with the unrealistic aspects of books like Convict Conditioning and the anonymous 'Paul Wade'. As much as I love the books, I realize that some parts just don't make sense. When you have unattainable standards like one arm handstand push-ups and one arm push-ups with no bend at the side with ludicrous rep ranges, it really makes people doubt your company and associated personnel. Especially, when Pavel's own book about the one arm push-up shows feet splayed with a slight bend.

The DD forum became the Convict Conditioning forum and simple/no-nonsense strength training became pushed to the wayside by a product that may or may not even have a verifiable author.