Kettlebell Life Protection System

[North Coast Miller]

Stuff with knives and guns is a step up from this and I don't really know what you can do about these besides hopefully running away.

This is what led me to FMA, Kali, Silat, and more recently to look at traditions like 52 handblocks.

I start from an assumption of multiple attackers and/or handweapons. When it comes to guns you're in trouble if they get the drop even if you are carrying a handgun, but the basics are the same - step to the side or diagonally and draw your own...or hand over your $ if that's all they want. Mobility and situational awareness are king.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I must admit @Gary Music this is the sentence that peaked my interest. I feel a certain amount of fear will keep you safe, whereas a false sense of confidence can get you badly hurt if not worse.

I keep my head high to improve my situational awareness and to let anyone paying attention know I'm still alert. Fear is not helpful, but a somewhat aroused sense of concern is priceless.

 

[Kozushi]

This is what led me to FMA, Kali, Silat, and more recently to look at traditions like 52 handblocks.

I start from an assumption of multiple attackers and/or handweapons. When it comes to guns you're in trouble if they get the drop even if you are carrying a handgun, but the basics are the same - step to the side or diagonally and draw your own...or hand over your $ if that's all they want. Mobility and situational awareness are king.

I've done a lot of fencing and kendo with similar goals to you. I've sparred with someone from an FMA background. I had no trouble with him in the wooden knife fight (used repeated fencing thrusts) nor with the stick (used multiple kendo hits to the head). I'm not saying I'm good or this is any kind of criticism of FMA - this is just one isolated thing, but the rule for safety in whatever style he was doing that you can't hit to the head gave me an advantage; however I've heard that hitting to the head is not as effective as people think - sabres would often not cut into the skull, and the guy getting struck in the head would actually win the fight with a simultaneous attack to somewhere else while getting struck in the head. In any case, I think fencing is excellent for deadly efficiency in stabbing, and I've read in a knife magazine that those enthusiasts thought quite the same.

But at the end of the day, actually stabbing someone is a HUGE thing. It isn't a bad thing to know something about this stuff, but seriously? Like, better find a new neighbourhood!

 

[North Coast Miller]

I've linked this before but the entire series is great reading for anyone interested in this sort of thing, even from a historical perspective, tho it is crossed with contemporary analogs where possible.

The Dubious Quick Kill, part 1

When I have done EW sparring, nothing was off limits - the head is just like any other appendage and the general rules apply - slash the appendages and stab the trunk. However in most legal cases one is on the defensive side and unarmed vs this kind of attack. I was taught to use basic escalation means from redirect and evade to redirect and counter, armed or not - all successful redirections contain within them an opening to escalate if escape is not an option.

Either way, mobility is paramount, and basic boxing and circular foot-work is so important it cannot be overstated. This is how you create space and doubt in an attacker (they are not opponents!).

If you are confronting a single aggressive individual you are either in the ring, in a situation you could walk away from, or at a very raucous social occasion (where you could disengage with loss of pride). If the lesson does not include this as a given or strong possibility it is of dubious value. Bad guys don't hunt solo unless you are a really soft target, and they (as you should) will use any improvised or carried weapons at their disposal. Lessons should walk back from situational awareness to evasion to physical counter. Pepper spray should feature prominently as an escape tool.

 

[Reneta Music]

Great discussion gentleman, thank you!

 

[Kozushi]

I've linked this before but the entire series is great reading for anyone interested in this sort of thing, even from a historical perspective, tho it is crossed with contemporary analogs where possible.

The Dubious Quick Kill, part 1

When I have done EW sparring, nothing was off limits - the head is just like any other appendage and the general rules apply - slash the appendages and stab the trunk. However in most legal cases one is on the defensive side and unarmed vs this kind of attack. I was taught to use basic escalation means from redirect and evade to redirect and counter, armed or not - all successful redirections contain within them an opening to escalate if escape is not an option.

Either way, mobility is paramount, and basic boxing and circular foot-work is so important it cannot be overstated. This is how you create space and doubt in an attacker (they are not opponents!).

If you are confronting a single aggressive individual you are either in the ring, in a situation you could walk away from, or at a very raucous social occasion (where you could disengage with loss of pride). If the lesson does not include this as a given or strong possibility it is of dubious value. Bad guys don't hunt solo unless you are a really soft target, and they (as you should) will use any improvised or carried weapons at their disposal. Lessons should walk back from situational awareness to evasion to physical counter. Pepper spray should feature prominently as an escape tool.

Yes, this is the kind of thing I have been thinking for a very long time. This is also what led me to fencing, since a "real" attack will involve weapons, be they even shovels or rocks, let alone knives of course. Home invasion was a very real possibility where I lived at the time (lots of these, using axes and knives, bats etc), and so this was one of the things I was particularly worried about (many attempted "thieving" type break-ins at my place although these are not home invasions and my locks were too good, hehehe, but a few actual trying to kick the door down type things happened as well - called the police naturally! A friend of mine god his head smashed with a baseball bat during a home invasion and he couldn't walk well after) Also, road rage was on my mind, and basically situations where if it's just some angry guy alone - yes the judo would be fine if needed, but 99% of the time you can just back off or say something to calm him down. There have been a number of group beatings where local citizens have been killed at restaurants, mini put parks, walking their dog etc, sometimes individual attacks like with a hammer to the back of the head - 1 on 1 in this case, kind of like a psycho-murder kind of thing.

In any case, with these kind of things on my mind, I felt a good grounding in judo would cover a lot of the worry for just big bully kind of guys or getting away from a group perhaps to run away, evasion is always the absolutely preferred choice of course, and some decent fencing if attacked in my own home.

Actually this discussion is reminding me that I started kettlebell training as a way to keep in fighting shape, like as if it were a dojo in my own home. The swings are like strikes and the TGUs like getting up off the ground if knocked down and other things.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Yes, this is the kind of thing I have been thinking for a very long time. This is also what led me to fencing, since a "real" attack will involve weapons, be they even shovels or rocks, let alone knives of course. Home invasion was a very real possibility where I lived at the time (lots of these, using axes and knives, bats etc), and so this was one of the things I was particularly worried about (many attempted "thieving" type break-ins at my place although these are not home invasions and my locks were too good, hehehe, but a few actual trying to kick the door down type things happened as well - called the police naturally! A friend of mine god his head smashed with a baseball bat during a home invasion and he couldn't walk well after) Also, road rage was on my mind, and basically situations where if it's just some angry guy alone - yes the judo would be fine if needed, but 99% of the time you can just back off or say something to calm him down. There have been a number of group beatings where local citizens have been killed at restaurants, mini put parks, walking their dog etc, sometimes individual attacks like with a hammer to the back of the head - 1 on 1 in this case, kind of like a psycho-murder kind of thing.

In any case, with these kind of things on my mind, I felt a good grounding in judo would cover a lot of the worry for just big bully kind of guys or getting away from a group perhaps to run away, evasion is always the absolutely preferred choice of course, and some decent fencing if attacked in my own home.

Actually this discussion is reminding me that I started kettlebell training as a way to keep in fighting shape, like as if it were a dojo in my own home. The swings are like strikes and the TGUs like getting up off the ground if knocked down and other things.

The group encounter definitely formed a central part of my training criteria. Not only ones I've experienced but also read about - how to improve survival odds. And then what of encounters that aren't cut and dry. While many traditions are scalable, not all of them are, and you won't be applying stuff you haven't learned.

Using predominantly FMA I particularly like that the redirections can be simply left as a redirection. The exact same mechanics that allow me to pull an attacker by, using a hand on the side/back of their head or a fist full of shirt at the neck or shoulder, can also be reconfigured on the fly to deliver a hammer fist to the side of the head instead, an ice-pick strike with a pen or other improvised weapon, or in a nightmare scenario an inverted grip stab to the head or neck. The mechanics are virtually identical. Likewise defending a hammer, a fist, a knife, the mechanics are all very similar.

As always, the bum's rush with a handweapon is the toughest attack to counter, and volumes have been written about dealing with the basic bent arm, rapid fire prison shanking attack. The stop hit, the redirection, mobile footwork are very effective for most determined attacks, but not the easiest to teach, especially the stop-hit.

And again, I'm a huge fan of pepper spray to facilitate a get-away or create an area denial effect where a prolonged assault is a lot less likely. It doesn't take a lot of practice with inert/trainer pepper spray for most folks to feel confident. And to those who claim it isn't effective at stopping an attacker, I respond with recollection of times I've punched someone in the head or kicked them, or been punched or kicked in the head and kept going - yet no one is going to claim a kick in the head will only make an attacker more angry.

The entire topic of SD is bottomless compared to sport fighting, but it all comes back to some form of awareness hitched to repetitive training.

 

[Bret S.]

yet no one is going to claim a kick in the head will only make an attacker more angry.

There is a certain amount of that offended feeling invoked like 'how dare you put your feet on me' when you kick someone. However if you kick them hard enough they've got other things to think about

The entire topic of SD is bottomless compared to sport fighting, but it all comes back to some form of awareness hitched to repetitive training.

I think for basic repeatable self defense it's hard to beat a strong front snap kick and reverse punch along with some blocking and moving sideways. If you take yourself out of an attacker's lane and force a re-direct you create an opening to counter attack. These techniques can be performed by a larger percentage of the population and don't require huge amounts of flexibility and are easy to put into a repeatable training template.
Obviously this is very basic stuff but if it can help thwart an attacker and maybe buy enough time to beat feet out of the situation.
Of course awareness and trusting your gut instincts are still king

 

[dc]

a somewhat aroused sense of concern is priceless.

You’ve just described controlled fear to me. When you’ve been stabbed & beaten within an inch of your life you tend to use the word fear.

 

[dc]

I keep my head high to improve my situational awareness and to let anyone paying attention know I'm still alert.

We’re looking at this from opposite sides, you’re looking at it from a good law abiding citizen perspective, I’m looking at it from the perspective of a former violent criminal.
I would be paying attention & I would notice & if things jumped off or I had work to do then you’ve just marked yourself as the first person that needs to be dealt with. You’re much better being invisible & blend with everybody else. You can still be alert & paying attention without a periscope letting people know. Head held high & alert simply means I change tact. Act strong & intimidating to the weak, friendly smile & easygoing disarming personality to the strong, result is usually the same. Don’t attract attention to yourself, wether looking strong or weak. When people have had real violence inflicted on them they tend to think it can happen again at anytime so unless they have mental issues they’ll be prone to keeping a low profile.

 

[Bret S.]

You’ve just described controlled fear to me. When you’ve been stabbed & beaten within an inch of your life you tend to use the word fear.

Without fear courage is not possible, fear is an asset hardwired into us for survival, a little = good, too much = bad, controlled fear is a very potent tool in self defense and is unavoidable (for me) and I use it to advantage per my training. Ultra cold showers and breath control are a tool I use to help me temper breathing method, depth and cadence to control the natural fear response.
My girl thinks I'm crazy as I'm always checking out people, terrain and the general feel of my surroundings without thinking anything of it. I tell her I'm like a German Shepard on patrol at all times, she laughs but I think she digs it as it makes her feel safe.

 

[dc]

However if you kick them hard enough they've got other things to think about

Kick them in the jewels & they’ll have only one thing to think about. Well maybe two.

 

[dc]

Obviously this is very basic stuff but if it can help thwart an attacker

Basic is always better in my book.

 

[dc]

When it comes to multiple attackers I would move constantly & attack occasionally trying for a way out of there, but if this wasn’t possible then I’d back myself into a corner to cover my back & attack whoever came closest.

 

[Bret S.]

Kick them in the jewels & they’ll have only one thing to think about. Well maybe two

Haha.. true

I’d back myself into a corner to cover my back

Cornered animals/people are very dangerous

 

[North Coast Miller]

You’ve just described controlled fear to me. When you’ve been stabbed & beaten within an inch of your life you tend to use the word fear.

Semantics perhaps, "fear" to me implies a lack of confidence or lack of experience. "Concern" means my Spidey sense is going off. When that happens I'm not thinking about the last time I was torn up, I'm thinking about here and now.
Last time I pulled a "grey man" when my instinct told me to stand tall I got cold-cocked in the side of the head anyway, and barely kept my feet. You can't defend what you are unaware of.

 

[Bret S.]

You can't defend what you are unaware of.

+1

 

[dc]

Semantics perhaps, "fear" to me implies a lack of confidence or lack of experience. "Concern" means my Spidey sense is going off. When that happens I'm not thinking about the last time I was torn up, I'm thinking about here and now.
Last time I pulled a "grey man" when my instinct told me to stand tall I got cold-cocked in the side of the head anyway, and barely kept my feet. You can't defend what you are unaware of.

Semantics true, but pulling a grey man doesn’t equal being unaware. The mistake you made that day was not trusting your instincts.

 

[dc]

My girl thinks I'm crazy as I'm always checking out people, terrain and the general feel of my surroundings without thinking anything of it. I tell her I'm like a German Shepard on patrol at all times, she laughs but I think she digs it as it makes her feel safe.

My habits I still carry from my past have the opposite effect on my partner. It reminds her of the past & doesn’t make her feel safe. Things like having to reverse park the car everytime, state of paranoia with flat tyres(oldest trick in the book), gotta sit with back to the wall facing door at restaurants, hiding things I can use as weapons around house & car, always carrying something on me that can be used as weapon (pen even) & the list goes on. I’m working on it.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Semantics true, but pulling a grey man doesn’t equal being unaware. The mistake you made that day was not trusting your instincts.

Agreed...never again.

To be fair I had multiple potential boogies and instead of going erect I maintained casual posture - the guy that tagged me was not the guy I was keeping my eyes on, a lesson I won't forget.