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Kettlebell Do you need grinds?

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njrick1

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Hello all,

Theoretically, if one is training for GPP, and has achieved the simple goal it seems to be a good idea to move on to Quick and the Dead and A+A protocols which use explosive movements. At this point, is the addition of grinds (presses, barbell work) recommended, or are they an unnecessary secondary pursuit if one is training for GPP? In other words, what is the value of adding grinds to Q and D/A+A protocols, and what are the drawbacks of not adding grinds to Q and D/A+A protocols?

Thank you!
 
One thing I've said before is, whenever somebody asks "do I really need to do X", the answer is almost always yes...

I would say, if your idea of GPP is to be generally ready for whatever life throws at you, I do think there's value to grind lifts. Not all tasks in life are about repeated bursts of energy, sometime you might be asked hold or carry something heavy for an extended period - I think some level of conditioning yourselves for more time under tension is useful, even if most of us don't need to be well versed in the powerlifting big 3.

But really, I think you're touching on something bigger. I suspect grinds are going to build more limit strength per time invested than power work, and one hopes that you can create a virtuous cycle - limit strength adds to your power, enabling your power training to do more for you all around. But eventually it becomes a question of how much limit strength is "enough". I suspect most GPP practitioners would reap a lot of benefit from just a little investment in grinding, but there is some point of diminishing returns.
 
One feeds the other back and forth. Limit strength is one of the GPP components. Speed and/or endurance are other components to evaluate in GPP. As are mobility, accuracy balance etc...

If GPP is the main goal, then a balance must be maintained between the various markers. And to get to higher levels you will need to train up each component as they feed each other, where strength is the base that the other qualities sit on.

I suggest ready Easy Strength to see some real experts discuss this and more...
 
if we limit ourselves to A+A - we are no longer practicing GPP. It is now a specialization...

That said, assuming we limit ourselves to A+A with snatches. Who is better? You with your 32kg bell or the other monster at 48kg? If you want to match that monster, you'll need to include some grind to get up there won't you.

For a sample 48kg A+A monster, look at Motz. The beast also has some very decent limit strength grind numbers...
 
cwheeler33 said:
if we limit ourselves to A+A - we are no longer practicing GPP. It is now a specialization...
Click to expand...

This is a very interesting point! Should somebody who is really just trying to be "ready for anything" just be training the same way forever? Specialists benefit from cycling their training, no reason that generalist shouldn't similarly benefit.
 
GPP is essentially work capacity... that generally means more of a conditioning type component... strength is obviously very important and the 2 (strength and work capacity) tend each benefit from each other... with that said there are 2 main ways to accomplish this:

Conjugate type model where you're training multiple qualities at once... so this would be like 2 days of strength, 2 days of work capacity/conditioning type work (merely 1 example)

Or a block type model where you spend 2-4 week blocks on one quality then 2-4weeks on the other...

I personally like the block type model because it allows me to really focus on one quality and dial it in... the conjugate or multiple qualities type model I never feel I benefit from one or the other, although if you want a "general" type template the 2+2 template works great for a lot of ppl...
 
I've had big 6-12 week blocks where I did all A+A and almost no grinds, and I don't think I missed anything.

WhatWouldHulkDo said:
limit strength adds to your power, enabling your power training to do more for you all around.
Click to expand...

This is true, but generally speaking, I don't think kettelbell grinds are the best way to increase limit strength. A block of barbell strength training is more effective.
 
cwheeler33 said:
if we limit ourselves to A+A - we are no longer practicing GPP. It is now a specialization...
Click to expand...
I am curious why you believe this. If we followed this train of thought out, would S&S no longer be considered GPP since the practitioner has specialized in the swing and TGU?

I would argue that A&A snatching could be considered the ultimate in minimalist GPP.

One thing we all need to consider, what a GPP program is for me might be a specialization program for another. This forum has tried many times and had some great conversations about what “being fit” is, but has never come to a conclusive answer. It is all subjective and based on very personal and individual needs.
 
Good topic. I have some questions about this too. If both ballistics and grinds are important to develop one another, does that mean we need at least one of each for upper body and lower body?

Because not many strongfirst programs have both. Take RoP. There's press and snatch/ Swing. No lower body grind.

S&S... lower body ballistic plus upper grind...unless the TGU count as a lower and upper grind?
 
Bunn said:
I am curious why you believe this. If we followed this train of thought out, would S&S no longer be considered GPP since the practitioner has specialized in the swing and TGU?
Click to expand...

I think yes, above a certain level, maybe it's not GPP any more. But you would have to go pretty far, maybe further than most people ever do. 2 guys come to mind:

@Pavel Macek - actively chasing Sinister in addition to his sport, constantly throwing 70%+ BW around for fun. Would you call what he does GPP, or is it training specifically for Sinister?

@Harald Motz - the Minister of Power Endurance. Seems to me that he's pushing the research boundaries as opposed to just trying to be generally prepared.

Like you said, the definition of GPP is so amorphous that we could fit it to almost anything. It just seems to me that, conceptually, at some point you cross a line between training to be good any almost anything to training to be really good at training.

Just my $0.02.
 
Bunn said:
One thing we all need to consider, what a GPP program is for me might be a specialization program for another. This forum has tried many times and had some great conversations about what “being fit” is, but has never come to a conclusive answer. It is all subjective and based on very personal and individual needs.
Click to expand...
I agree with this 100%. There are many roads that lead to Rome...

Bunn said:
I am curious why you believe this. If we followed this train of thought out, would S&S no longer be considered GPP since the practitioner has specialized in the swing and TGU?

I would argue that A&A snatching could be considered the ultimate in minimalist GPP.
Click to expand...
As to why I say A&A only is SPP...
It starts with certain definitions like this from Easy Strength

"
Easy Strength - Pavel said:
I suspect that many Russian texts dealing with general physical preparation (GPP) and special physical
preparation (SPP) have been translated into English by equally competent people,because inAmerica,GPP
has been mysteriously narrowed down to anaerobic smokers.“If it’s not sled dragging or burpees, it isn’t
GPP!” Nonsense, Comrade!

GPP is not limited to a couple of subtypes of endurance but encompasses a wide range of physical
attributes, including strength, joint mobility, work capacity, etc. What makes GPP different from SPP is its
aim to “perform any physical work more or less successfully,” according to Professor Nikolay Ozolin
(whose name you will see again and again in this book), as opposed to improving strength or another
quality specific to a given sport or task. SPP is what Americans know as sport-specific training.

I often ask this trick question at seminars:“The 3 RM deadlift—is it GPP or SPP?” Usually,the students
give the answer that appears obvious to them:“SPP, because it’s heavy and doesn’t make you throw up.”

The real answer is,“It depends.” For a powerlifter or strongman, the 3 RM DL is SPP, because it is so
close to his competition events. For everyone else, it is GPP—even for a weightlifter, because such a
heavy pull has little in common with snatches and cleans.The fact that the load is heavy has no bearing
on whether the exercise falls into the GPP or the SPP category.

One more time: General physical preparation* is training aimed at raising one’s many fitness components applied to a wide range of tasks.Think Crossfit. I am not endorsing that training system but mentioning it because Crossfit’s goal is clearly GPP: being ready for a wide range of challenges. GPP also
includes addressing weaknesses and imbalances.
Click to expand...

I had also stated 'sole' training... This means to exclude all other training programs... If you take out grinds, why not take out other joint mobility work. After all, you already have that covered too once you do 32kg A&A right...

So when someone say I will only do this one thing, I say they are starting to specialize.

I believe the original Crossfit Manifesto was great. It listed all of the physical qualities that we need to train. But the implementation that followed was a travesty. The global package provided by SF with block training I believe offers the real goods.

Cycling A&A, Grinds and other work is GPP.

I would agree that A&A can be used to express current levels of GPP. But by itself, as the sole training method, it is lacking.
 
Dayz said:
Good topic. I have some questions about this too. If both ballistics and grinds are important to develop one another, does that mean we need at least one of each for upper body and lower body?

Because not many strongfirst programs have both. Take RoP. There's press and snatch/ Swing. No lower body grind.

S&S... lower body ballistic plus upper grind...unless the TGU count as a lower and upper grind?
Click to expand...

RoP: did you forget the variety days? Where you practice other skills? To maintain your pet lifts and just have fun...

I find that most of Pavel's programs assume you will cycle based on your personal needs or desires. Nothing is writ in stone on purpose.

You and your training log are best able to dictate the most beneficial program at any one time based on your goals.
 
I really like this from Pavel Macek in another thread. This is a good expression of GPP in my mind...
To meet all three standards requires many qualities.


Pavel Macek said:
Yes - there is certainly a point of diminishing return. My approach is to meet "not-so-weak standards" (such as our SFG/SFL/SFB strength tests), maintain them, and possibly drive them a bit higher - just a bit.
Click to expand...


This master hints at something amazing
 
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william bad butt said:
GPP is not a one size fit all, right? GPP for a powerlifter might include some modest conditioning training. GPP for a long distance endurance runner might include some modest strength training.
Click to expand...

I definetly agree! So the question could become "What type of GPP will you get from explosive lifts only versus what type of GPP will you get from ballistics plus grinds?" "Will ballistics maintain strong enough without adding grinds or is more needed'
 
"For best results shoot from both barrels."
ROTK page 5 Pavel.

Here is another article I found that I thought was interesting. It describes Power and Speed as a derivative of Strength.

Strength and its Derivatives | Mark Rippetoe
startingstrength.com

Strength and its Derivatives | Mark Rippetoe

The production of force against an external resistance is the way all living creatures interact with their physical environment. Even plants do this, albeit very slowly. This ability has been in development for at least 3 billion years, and it's time to embrace it as a unifying characteristic of...
startingstrength.com startingstrength.com
 
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