5/3/1 - Back from the Dead(lift)

[pet']

Hello @Philippe Geoffrion

Thank you !

I do not have access to very heavy weight, beyond my kb (which originally is a 32 with some other weights on it).

I know that Simple (for example) is great to build posterior chain to DL heavy. At my parents' house, Timeless Simple gave me 2x bdw DL.

However, now, I run more and doing that amount of swings is hard to fit into the programme. This is why I am after something really 'raw strength' oriented. I have recently re-discovered the reverse nordic curl in this regard. It loads hips, quads, glutes and lower back fairly well. Did you already try something similar ?

Thanks again and keep lifting !

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Hello @Philippe Geoffrion

Thank you !

I do not have access to very heavy weight, beyond my kb (which originally is a 32 with some other weights on it).

I know that Simple (for example) is great to build posterior chain to DL heavy. At my parents' house, Timeless Simple gave me 2x bdw DL.

However, now, I run more and doing that amount of swings is hard to fit into the programme. This is why I am after something really 'raw strength' oriented. I have recently re-discovered the reverse nordic curl in this regard. It loads hips, quads, glutes and lower back fairly well. Did you already try something similar ?

Thanks again and keep lifting !

Kind regards,

Pet'

Ah yes @pet'. I’ve had to look it up because I didn’t know it by name. I have done it in the past and also the sissy version (starting from a standing version and ‘squatting until the knees touch the floor like the starting position). But I never did them regularly, just for fun.

What about pistols with your kettlebell? To a box could make it more posterior dominant. That’s as raw of strength I can think of with a kettlebell. Airborne lunges too. My glutes always get work. Single leg deadlifts would be of use as well. You could do single leg glute bridges with the kettlebell also. And how about instead of the higher rep swings, you do lower rep snatches? If you can find something to pin your ankles, natural GHR are as cruel as it gets for hamstrings.

If you weren’t running as much, I’d say sprinting would be of great benefit, as well as broad jumps. Being a jumper and sprinter in high school, I remember my deadlift was naturally strong with barely any training.

But get creative. Put a towel on the floor and do leg curls by sliding outstretched feet, as you lay supine, into a glute bridge. If it’s too easy, put bands behind your knees or a kettlebell on your hips. The posterior chain is hard to train heavy without weights but mind you, I improved my deadlift rep or from 6 reps at 165 kgs 12 at the same weight in 2 months with no weights and using no more than the above.

 

[pet']

Hello @Philippe Geoffrion

Thanks a lot for your help !

This can sound weird, but I find pistol squats with a weight a little bit easier, at least to a certain point, because the weight is a counter weight. It helps with balance up to a point. I am always cautious with heavy loaded pistol squats, especially at knee level. In general, I prefer doing them at bodyweight, to challenge the balance. I consider them a little bit like the TGU: a nice blend of strength, mobility and balance.

For a while, I tried leg curls with suspension trainer. As you mentioned, I guess I should have used a band behind the knees or a weight on the hips to make them harder.

Yesterday, I stumbled accross a leg routine which contains both hips and quads strength moves, but which also have explosive moves. So it has everything you underlined ! I will probably give it a go then

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Hello @Philippe Geoffrion

Thanks a lot for your help !

This can sound weird, but I find pistol squats with a weight a little bit easier, at least to a certain point, because the weight is a counter weight. It helps with balance up to a point. I am always cautious with heavy loaded pistol squats, especially at knee level. In general, I prefer doing them at bodyweight, to challenge the balance. I consider them a little bit like the TGU: a nice blend of strength, mobility and balance.

For a while, I tried leg curls with suspension trainer. As you mentioned, I guess I should have used a band behind the knees or a weight on the hips to make them harder.

Yesterday, I stumbled accross a leg routine which contains both hips and quads strength moves, but which also have explosive moves. So it has everything you underlined ! I will probably give it a go then

Kind regards,

Pet'

@pet' im glad to help where I can! I look forward to seeing your progress on your log!!!!

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Saturday-RM

A1) Pullups x 15,15,13,7 (50)
A2) Single Arm OH Press - 26 kgs x 10r x 4s
B) Heel Elevated Squat - 26 kgs x 15r x 4s
C) Hand Walkouts - 3 x 3 sets

My pull-up endurance seems to have gotten better out of nowhere. Maybe super compensation from dropping a lot of pullups throughout the week? I’m curious as to what a single all out set would be.

The OH work was tough, volume wise but got it done. And the heel elevated squat is actually a pretty intense core exercise on its own, perhaps for the way I hold the plate, similar to a goblet squat.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Sunday - Power/Speed/DE

5rounds
A1) Sprint - 20 meters
A2) Plyo pushups x 3

3 Rounds
B1) Broad Jump x 3
B2) Single arm PowerRow - 26 kgs x 3R/3L
C1) Swing - 52 kgs x 5
C2) Band wood chop x 5

Cut sprint distant down to spare myself and work on starting speed/acceleration. Starts felt very fast today. Plyo pushups a bit harder with feet elevated.

Measured out 9 feet by walking and placed a stick for jump target. Good clearance each jump. Luckily, the ground is putty like at this park.

The swings feeling strong. Felt heightened energy after training; a great place to call it quits.

 

[Antti]

@Philippe Geoffrion & @pet' regarding raw strength lower body exercises with kettlebells or bodyweight I wonder what you two think of the hack squat?

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

@Philippe Geoffrion & @pet' regarding raw strength lower body exercises with kettlebells or bodyweight I wonder what you two think of the hack squat?

I think as far as bodyweight leg moves go, it has value but for some more than others. I know when performed correctly and strictly (glutes tensed), it is much more difficult and valuable. Pavel has mentioned it as the ideal exercise for climbers, I’d imagine it’d benefite combat athletes and ruckers such as @pet'.

I know Hackenschmidt did some absurd numbers in this lift, and if they were done as strictly as Pavel’s recommendations in BB, those numbers are absurd. However, if you could load a barbell to such weights, I’d just use deadlifts of some sort. Hack squats are quite dissimilar from barbell squats to help them, though they do give the thighs a high workload, you never really break parallel.

Id think the ankle and feet strengthening effects would be beneficial however. Overall a fine move, especially if working without weights but I doubt they’d help the barbell squat very much, which is important to me when considering any additional leg work.

 

[Antti]

I think as far as bodyweight leg moves go, it has value but for some more than others. I know when performed correctly and strictly (glutes tensed), it is much more difficult and valuable. Pavel has mentioned it as the ideal exercise for climbers, I’d imagine it’d benefite combat athletes and ruckers such as @pet'.

I know Hackenschmidt did some absurd numbers in this lift, and if they were done as strictly as Pavel’s recommendations in BB, those numbers are absurd. However, if you could load a barbell to such weights, I’d just use deadlifts of some sort. Hack squats are quite dissimilar from barbell squats to help them, though they do give the thighs a high workload, you never really break parallel.

Id think the ankle and feet strengthening effects would be beneficial however. Overall a fine move, especially if working without weights but I doubt they’d help the barbell squat very much, which is important to me when considering any additional leg work.

I agree that the strictness is paramount. The exercise isn't really worthwhile at all without tense glutes, pushing the hips forward aggressively.

I agree that the exercise or the stress really isn't that similar to the back squat, or at least the powerlifting squat. But I do think it should have benefits. The ankle and the foot get stronger, yes. It also works well on ankle mobility. And the knees move much more than people typically ever use them, at least with any kind of load. I would argue that using the knees in loaded full range of motion is good prehab, and the hack squat a good option for such.

I always squat to full depth and I have decent mobility, so compared to my typical gym and powerlifting brethren, I go way deeper. Even more so on front and zercher squats, just due to the center of the mass. Still, I feel that the hack squat, and incidentally most of the hypertrophy training I do outside of the squat rack in the gym, is often really mostly felt just above the knee. There's something there that the squats miss for me.

 

[pet']

Hello @Antti

I agree with @Philippe Geoffrion Overall, this is a very good move, especially for joints (knees and ankles). It also challenges balance.

As far as strength goes, it will be hard to beat heavy barbell squats (mainly back squats as you are likely to load them more than front squats) without falling into isolation moves such as leg presses and leg extensions.

With kettlebells, I would do squats and lunges (assuming you have heavy bells). I would also focus on slow eccentric and fast concentric because bells are lighter than barbells.

With pure bodyweight, it will be harder to get to the same level. I would to a 'complex' such as 'quadzilla':

Quadzilla Complex - Mountain Tactical Institute

2x Quadzilla Complex = 2x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges unloaded, each leg (4x total) 4x Squat Jumps 3x Quadzilla Complex = 3x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (6x total) 3x Jumping Lunges...

mtntactical.com

If you can not use a weight, I would do box step up

Usually, when we want to increase strength, we have to take balance away from the equation.

Another solution could be hill sprint and jumps, paired with core training. As Pavel said, to get strong, one has to either :
- lift heavy
- lift light but fast

I think that Hack squat can be an excellent mobility drill (such as Hindu push ups or Hindu squats). Nonetheless, I would not practice them in a low rep range fashion to get stronger. I would use a regular squat to do so. Hack squats may improve other lifts or activities if balance, mobility or strength in weird angles are a limiting factor. This can be the case, as @Philippe Geoffrion said for running, rucking, etc... To a certain extent, they are a little bit like pistols: blend of strength, mobility and balance. They are an excellent prehab / assistance lift. But if maximal strength is the goal, then the classic deadlift, squat, OVH will be hard to beat.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

I agree that the strictness is paramount. The exercise isn't really worthwhile at all without tense glutes, pushing the hips forward aggressively.

I agree that the exercise or the stress really isn't that similar to the back squat, or at least the powerlifting squat. But I do think it should have benefits. The ankle and the foot get stronger, yes. It also works well on ankle mobility. And the knees move much more than people typically ever use them, at least with any kind of load. I would argue that using the knees in loaded full range of motion is good prehab, and the hack squat a good option for such.

I always squat to full depth and I have decent mobility, so compared to my typical gym and powerlifting brethren, I go way deeper. Even more so on front and zercher squats, just due to the center of the mass. Still, I feel that the hack squat, and incidentally most of the hypertrophy training I do outside of the squat rack in the gym, is often really mostly felt just above the knee. There's something there that the squats miss for me.

Good points about the thigh. I also don’t get any if much thigh stimulation from any barbell squats to tell the truth. They all seem to stimulate mostly my tookus.

However, this is why for extra thigh work, I usually do elevated heel work, like standing on a rap and squatting. I definitely feel my thighs during this. Perhaps there’s is a leak though, in leaving out movements where I rise in my toes. Maybe it would help sprinting and jumping in some way. Something to think about. Do you use them much @Antti ?

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Hello @Antti

I agree with @Philippe Geoffrion Overall, this is a very good move, especially for joints (knees and ankles). It also challenges balance.

As far as strength goes, it will be hard to beat heavy barbell squats (mainly back squats as you are likely to load them more than front squats) without falling into isolation moves such as leg presses and leg extensions.

With kettlebells, I would do squats and lunges (assuming you have heavy bells). I would also focus on slow eccentric and fast concentric because bells are lighter than barbells.

With pure bodyweight, it will be harder to get to the same level. I would to a 'complex' such as 'quadzilla':

Quadzilla Complex - Mountain Tactical Institute

2x Quadzilla Complex = 2x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges unloaded, each leg (4x total) 4x Squat Jumps 3x Quadzilla Complex = 3x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (6x total) 3x Jumping Lunges...

mtntactical.com

If you can not use a weight, I would do box step up

Usually, when we want to increase strength, we have to take balance away from the equation.

Another solution could be hill sprint and jumps, paired with core training. As Pavel said, to get strong, one has to either :
- lift heavy
- lift light but fast

I think that Hack squat can be an excellent mobility drill (such as Hindu push ups or Hindu squats). Nonetheless, I would not practice them in a low rep range fashion to get stronger. I would use a regular squat to do so. Hack squats may improve other lifts or activities if balance, mobility or strength in weird angles are a limiting factor. This can be the case, as @Philippe Geoffrion said for running, rucking, etc... To a certain extent, they are a little bit like pistols: blend of strength, mobility and balance. They are an excellent prehab / assistance lift. But if maximal strength is the goal, then the classic deadlift, squat, OVH will be hard to beat.

Kind regards,

Pet'

True about maximal strength. Perhaps the balance element would work the stabilizing structures though?

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Philippe Geoffrion
Yes, that's exact, I totally agree with you. I would even say that's something important most folk neglect.

Hack squats will force you to strongly engage lower back and glutes go stay straight (so avoiding leaning forward). This could be compared to McGill's Big 3. Per se, these moves do not make you stronger, as far as max and raw strength are concerned. However, they teach you this stiffness, meaning straight spine, you need to move the bar.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Hung]

also don’t get any if much thigh stimulation from any barbell squats to tell the truth.

if you squat vertical then I don't see how you cannot growth your quads. Standing on plates or similar things help you stay vertical in squat

 

[Antti]

Hello @Antti

I agree with @Philippe Geoffrion Overall, this is a very good move, especially for joints (knees and ankles). It also challenges balance.

As far as strength goes, it will be hard to beat heavy barbell squats (mainly back squats as you are likely to load them more than front squats) without falling into isolation moves such as leg presses and leg extensions.

With kettlebells, I would do squats and lunges (assuming you have heavy bells). I would also focus on slow eccentric and fast concentric because bells are lighter than barbells.

With pure bodyweight, it will be harder to get to the same level. I would to a 'complex' such as 'quadzilla':

Quadzilla Complex - Mountain Tactical Institute

2x Quadzilla Complex = 2x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (4x total) 2x Jumping Lunges unloaded, each leg (4x total) 4x Squat Jumps 3x Quadzilla Complex = 3x In-Place Lunges with Dumbbells, each leg (6x total) 3x Jumping Lunges...

mtntactical.com

If you can not use a weight, I would do box step up

Usually, when we want to increase strength, we have to take balance away from the equation.

Another solution could be hill sprint and jumps, paired with core training. As Pavel said, to get strong, one has to either :
- lift heavy
- lift light but fast

I think that Hack squat can be an excellent mobility drill (such as Hindu push ups or Hindu squats). Nonetheless, I would not practice them in a low rep range fashion to get stronger. I would use a regular squat to do so. Hack squats may improve other lifts or activities if balance, mobility or strength in weird angles are a limiting factor. This can be the case, as @Philippe Geoffrion said for running, rucking, etc... To a certain extent, they are a little bit like pistols: blend of strength, mobility and balance. They are an excellent prehab / assistance lift. But if maximal strength is the goal, then the classic deadlift, squat, OVH will be hard to beat.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Of course, especially coming from me, I will say that the barbell is the obvious #1 choice for strength. I rather wanted to consider the hack squat compared to exercises like bodyweight squat, Hindu squat, pistol squat, goblet squat, kettlebell front squat. I see value in the hack squat in general, but even more in this context, where it could be a reasonable variety for strength work at occasion.

Speaking of Quadzilla, I understand Tom Platz is a big fan of hack squats.

Good points about the thigh. I also don’t get any if much thigh stimulation from any barbell squats to tell the truth. They all seem to stimulate mostly my tookus.

However, this is why for extra thigh work, I usually do elevated heel work, like standing on a rap and squatting. I definitely feel my thighs during this. Perhaps there’s is a leak though, in leaving out movements where I rise in my toes. Maybe it would help sprinting and jumping in some way. Something to think about. Do you use them much @Antti ?

Regarding feeling the leg exercises, I find that if I want to walk funnily after training legs, I have to use longer sets, like close to 20 reps or so. The glutes get good stimulation with few reps.

I switch between weightlifting shoes and flats so yes, I do use a heel regularly. I always front squat with the weightlifting shoes. If I want a more Olympic squat, yes, quad work, I use the weightlifting shoe and a narrower stance with less external rotation. For a competitive powerlifting squat I would like to use flats and a wider stance with more external rotation. Though, at the moment, I feel my glutes prefer the weightlifting style. They take a while to heal and I will make it easier for them.

With accessories I typically use the flats. However, I often do my accessories unilaterally, which gives me extra range of motion alongside the chance to fix imbalance between the legs. For example, I far prefer the single leg leg press to bilateral. As it's a fixed motion in the machine I don't have to worry about too much instability even if I work unilaterally. Same goes for leg curls and extensions. It's also interesting how the bilateral deficit seems to work in different degrees with hamstrings Vs quads.

I don't really do exercises with heels in the air apart from the hack squat. I only do it with bodyweight, though for longer sets and I do weigh 300 pounds. I have thought about doing calf training but I'm not sure if the hack squat doesn't fix that itch as well. I've never really liked training the calves, maybe it would have been useful if I did it.

 

[pet']

Hello @Antti

I rather wanted to consider the hack squat compared to exercises like bodyweight squat, Hindu squat, pistol squat, goblet squat, kettlebell front squat.

Hindu squats are usually performed with bodyweight only. Balance tends to come from arm swinging during the move. When one does Hindu squats, legs tend to be parallel, and roughly shoulder width.

Hack squats are harder in terms of balance. Indeed, when we have a weight in the back (either in the upper back or lower back) we tend to lean forward. This is what you do not want with this move. As far as leg positioning, knees are getting 'outside' in this move, compared to the forward of the Hindu version. For folks who wants to increase their hip opening, it can be interesting, as a way to get weighted stretch. As we have to carry the load at lower back / butt level, it creates a thoracic opening which does not exist in the Hindu version.

Hindu and Hack can be more knee friendly do the lighter load we use.

Pistols squats are a different animal. Indeed, we naturally tend to lean the upper body forward. The goal here is to minimize this motion, while keeping a straight back (close to the back motion of a back squat then). The sideways balance component will engage more the glutes, quads, and obliques to stay straight (meaning not falling on the side). If performed in full ROM, it requires great hip mobility. The passive leg tends to be used as a counter weight to get balance: if we do a pistol on the right leg, we can lean to the lead, so we'll use the left leg to get balance. As time goes by, the passive leg almost do not move and always aims forward.

Bodyweight squats require less balance than Hindu, Hack and pistol, even if it still requires the same hip mobility than the pistol. I tend to find kb front squat / goblet squat 'easier' than regular bdw squats because the weight acts as a reminder to engage the core. Holding the bell in front of us does not provide a thoracic opening, comparing the the Hack squat, or even the bb squats, because we hold the bell right in front of us, and also lower than a bar.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

if you squat vertical then I don't see how you cannot growth your quads. Standing on plates or similar things help you stay vertical in squat

Yes but a few things. 1) when you have long thighs, as I do, staying vertical is really not possible. My thighs are longer than my torso. 2) I don’t have access to a gym, the plates here are nearly 4 inches thick. This is far too much to load a barbell on my back and step on. 3) I left my Olympic shoes in the US.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Hello,

@Philippe Geoffrion
Yes, that's exact, I totally agree with you. I would even say that's something important most folk neglect.

Hack squats will force you to strongly engage lower back and glutes go stay straight (so avoiding leaning forward). This could be compared to McGill's Big 3. Per se, these moves do not make you stronger, as far as max and raw strength are concerned. However, they teach you this stiffness, meaning straight spine, you need to move the bar.

Kind regards,

Pet'

These are good points. I’m thinking of backing down leg training since I’m hitting them hard too often. I’m noticing my squat suffer and my legs are constantly sore in the hip flexors adductors region, most likely from sprinting and DE Day. I might look for some prehab moves to tag on, after subtracting three days of more intense leg work, to perform in their place. Maybe hacks

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Of course, especially coming from me, I will say that the barbell is the obvious #1 choice for strength. I rather wanted to consider the hack squat compared to exercises like bodyweight squat, Hindu squat, pistol squat, goblet squat, kettlebell front squat. I see value in the hack squat in general, but even more in this context, where it could be a reasonable variety for strength work at occasion.

Speaking of Quadzilla, I understand Tom Platz is a big fan of hack squats.



Regarding feeling the leg exercises, I find that if I want to walk funnily after training legs, I have to use longer sets, like close to 20 reps or so. The glutes get good stimulation with few reps.

I switch between weightlifting shoes and flats so yes, I do use a heel regularly. I always front squat with the weightlifting shoes. If I want a more Olympic squat, yes, quad work, I use the weightlifting shoe and a narrower stance with less external rotation. For a competitive powerlifting squat I would like to use flats and a wider stance with more external rotation. Though, at the moment, I feel my glutes prefer the weightlifting style. They take a while to heal and I will make it easier for them.

With accessories I typically use the flats. However, I often do my accessories unilaterally, which gives me extra range of motion alongside the chance to fix imbalance between the legs. For example, I far prefer the single leg leg press to bilateral. As it's a fixed motion in the machine I don't have to worry about too much instability even if I work unilaterally. Same goes for leg curls and extensions. It's also interesting how the bilateral deficit seems to work in different degrees with hamstrings Vs quads.

I don't really do exercises with heels in the air apart from the hack squat. I only do it with bodyweight, though for longer sets and I do weigh 300 pounds. I have thought about doing calf training but I'm not sure if the hack squat doesn't fix that itch as well. I've never really liked training the calves, maybe it would have been useful if I did it.

Tbh @Antti , I have trouble doing more than a few reps of proper hacks with no load at all!!! Thinking of loading them just makes me think wow...that’s some good control and strength. However, I might subtract a heavy barbell day for legs and throw in some hacks in place. We’ll see.

I agree with doing unilateral assistance work. I really only use the bar for main moves. The freedom of movements, the stability and core demands, the spinal decompression and mobility aspects are all pluses in my books.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Hello @Antti


Hindu squats are usually performed with bodyweight only. Balance tends to come from arm swinging during the move. When one does Hindu squats, legs tend to be parallel, and roughly shoulder width.

Hack squats are harder in terms of balance. Indeed, when we have a weight in the back (either in the upper back or lower back) we tend to lean forward. This is what you do not want with this move. As far as leg positioning, knees are getting 'outside' in this move, compared to the forward of the Hindu version. For folks who wants to increase their hip opening, it can be interesting, as a way to get weighted stretch. As we have to carry the load at lower back / butt level, it creates a thoracic opening which does not exist in the Hindu version.

Hindu and Hack can be more knee friendly do the lighter load we use.

Pistols squats are a different animal. Indeed, we naturally tend to lean the upper body forward. The goal here is to minimize this motion, while keeping a straight back (close to the back motion of a back squat then). The sideways balance component will engage more the glutes, quads, and obliques to stay straight (meaning not falling on the side). If performed in full ROM, it requires great hip mobility. The passive leg tends to be used as a counter weight to get balance: if we do a pistol on the right leg, we can lean to the lead, so we'll use the left leg to get balance. As time goes by, the passive leg almost do not move and always aims forward.

Bodyweight squats require less balance than Hindu, Hack and pistol, even if it still requires the same hip mobility than the pistol. I tend to find kb front squat / goblet squat 'easier' than regular bdw squats because the weight acts as a reminder to engage the core. Holding the bell in front of us does not provide a thoracic opening, comparing the the Hack squat, or even the bb squats, because we hold the bell right in front of us, and also lower than a bar.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Sigh, if only I could pistol with a straight back...